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15 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

You sir, get my first "like" on these forums.

*bow* we aim to please.

 

14 minutes ago, shosuko said:

idk - I'm actually on the fence...  On one hand, the game needs a certain level of containment.  If they were to introduce a new faction they would have to spill out a LOT of cards to catch them up, and factions like (shudder) spider, Shadowlands, and Shadow would need some way to properly interact with the Honor system.  For these reasons I don't like the idea of the game breaking away from the 7 GC...

That said - one of the biggest elements of the game is that it interacts with its story more than any other game.  For this to be real we may NEED new factions to happen, and the ability even for great clans to fall out (like the Scorpion did to the burning sands)

We certainly wouldn't want any of the GC to completely die out, but the ebb and flow needs to be present for the game to reflect the story, and the story to remain interesting.

I would be okay if there were non-evergreen strongholds released to represent alliances and emerging factions as long as they suffer rotation like the majority of the card base.  I think both alliance and emerging factions would be interesting for play, and allow good meta diversity to feel the game come and go.  Imagine a Crab stronghold that let you splash extra influence or possibly even non-unique dynasty characters from just 1 other faction, and in trade you cannot ally with any other faction using this stronghold.  Its not a perfect idea, but it sounds interesting to me...

I can entirely agree with the notion of non permanent 'storyline ' factions.

I not even totally against new permanent factions......just not the Yoritomo.

Getting rid of any of the big 7 in any kind of permanent way I think is a bit of a non-starter, evergreen factions and all. 

The 'alliance ' type stronghold idea has some merit. I hope they try something like that.

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Okay, so I don't sound armchair-y, I might as well give a line or three for each of my rankings. And no, I haven't tested any of these cards with proxies. I evaluate their card as it is in a vacuum stat-by-stat, ability-for-ability.

1: Kisada - A character that immediately gives your opponent a minus one on the first conflict is already good, even if its just a throwaway effect. If it happens to be a triggered ability from a card already in play, that's still one wasted ability that was played at a less-than-optimal time. And it gets better as the Crab player continues to win conflicts, as that effect is conditionally reusable up to three more times. The opponent will eventually run out of throwaway effects for that turn. The fact that his ability forces you to play around it all the time is already an indirect advantage. Of course, that ability is nothing if Kisada can't capitalize, which is where that 7 Military comes in. I can imagine that there will be times when Kisada wins the game just  because the opponent didn't have an action to burn to allow a send-home or discard effect to resolve.

2: Shoju - He is in many ways similar to Kisada in that he has that impressive 7 Political that will draw in a card or two from the hand or force the opponent to over-commit characters to defend (or attack), as well as having an ability that's scary just because it's sitting there, waiting to minus you. There's not much to say about Shoju because he is simply good at face value, but his ability is easier to dodge compared to Kisada's, which puts him at a (very) close second.

3: Yokuni - He would have been my number one, but he is very highly dependent on the presence of other characters that have beneficial effects. If there are none, then he's basically a character with balanced stat lines, which is still something. That being said, the ability will make your opponents think twice about unleashing a powerful character of their own such as their Clan Champion, as Yokuni will likely be a better version of that character especially after Glory has been applied and he is practicing the Way of the Dragon.

4: Tsukune - Despite what I said at the beginning, I cannot rate Tsukune in a vacuum; I don't need to relate her to the in-Clan cards, but I can still evaluate her based on how often the game state changes and is affected by player decisions and the cards that can be used during conflicts. Her ability compels the opponent to think ten steps ahead and try to predict the ways the number of unclaimed rings can be minimized by the end of the Conflict Phase. Again, it is an ability that is scary just because it's there, waiting to explode into something.

5-6: Hoturi/Toturi - If it weren't for their 6 Military/Political, they'd be bad cards, in my opinion. Cheaper characters have more useful abilities compared to them, as the benefits come from very situational conditions that their respective Clans can achieve pretty easily. When it comes to ring-based benefits, they don't even come close to Tsukune who is supported by the abilities of almost her entire Clan.

7: Al - Bad stat line and bad ability in a vacuum. Even with the rest of her Clan considered, she will have to rely on having specific cards and events happen for her to fire off her ability even once; and even when it does, it doesn't seem very impactful.

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3 hours ago, Evilgm said:

Of course they are- one of the cards being discussed hasn't even been officially previewed yet. Are you genuinely surprised that people are evaluating cards for an unreleased game based on gut feeling, or are you just trying to sound insightful by pointing out the glaringly obvious?

Except that people are actually proxing them and playtesting them. I mean both 3x core set playtesting and 1x core set playtesting*. I haven't seen anything here that has prohibited people from doing that here. The way people seem to be discussing champions largely feels more like the old Wandering Ronin posts from months ago (ok, maybe a month or two ago) or misinterpretation of abilities. A misinterpretation might be thinking that a 7 skill character that gives out two -1 skill debuffs if a character is present is the same as having 9 skill.

The most timely analogy of the discussion of these champions is Shadowmage Infiltrator from MtG's Odyssey expansion. From the vaccum of the card by itself before the release, the card was awesome. However, in the context of other cards, the environment, and the archetypes that could support it (i.e. the two colors it contained), the card was lacking. 

*-Mainly for general card interactions, introducing new players, and possible Gencon

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30 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Except that people are actually proxing them and playtesting them. I mean both 3x core set playtesting and 1x core set playtesting*. I haven't seen anything here that has prohibited people from doing that here. The way people seem to be discussing champions largely feels more like the old Wandering Ronin posts from months ago (ok, maybe a month or two ago) or misinterpretation of abilities. A misinterpretation might be thinking that a 7 skill character that gives out two -1 skill debuffs if a character is present is the same as having 9 skill.

The most timely analogy of the discussion of these champions is Shadowmage Infiltrator from MtG's Odyssey expansion. From the vaccum of the card by itself before the release, the card was awesome. However, in the context of other cards, the environment, and the archetypes that could support it (i.e. the two colors it contained), the card was lacking. 

*-Mainly for general card interactions, introducing new players, and possible Gencon

I wonder why you even care.  Do you disagree with the ratings?  Do you think there is something we're not considering?  Or are you just stating the obvious, that the game isn't out yet and that we are all speculating...  b/c we know this is specluation.

This is a forum for l5r enthusiasts who are excited for the new game.  Since all cards aren't spoiled, we are doing everything we can with everything we know until such time that everything IS released.  No one here is saying they absolutely know, and these are ratings focused specifically on the Champion cards.  They don't include consideration for all cards, since we don't know all cards - and no one is misrepresenting that.  No one is crying that anything is broken or op either.

Its also common to compare cards with equations based on cost and stats.  Some already assume 1 honor = 1 card, and most cards offer about 2x cost in stats +/- ability strength.  A 7 POL with 2x -1 POL penalties is pretty strong, and there is no argument against that.  You can say its a NET of 9 POL because your opponent would have to put up 9 POL to match it RAW.  If you consider that the attacker wins ties, then they may even need to put up 10 POL RAW if they want win vs it...  That is not easy to do...  Odds are - without some action to avoid it like bowing Shoju, sending him home, or Captive Audience... he's gonna win at least the ring and is a very real threat at breaking the province even solo.

The observation rooted in the experience that focused stats are more imposing than balanced stats since characters typically get to use just 1 of their stats in a round.  Altansarnai who has 5/4, and Tsukune who has 4/4 aren't going to immediately scare anyone in conflict.  They do give the option of challenging either type, which has its own value - but any chump blocker could save the province.  Further its a simple observation that neither Tsukune's or Altansarnai's abilities actually help you win that conflict they are in when you play them.  If you value up front power to immediately threaten your opponent in a conflict to break a province rather than the slower "invested" power of other options then you can easily rank the Champions according to your experience and preference.  You are welcome to share a differing view if you have one...

IF you have one...

...but it doesn't sound like you do.  It sounds like you're simply "calling us out" on our speculation as if we are ignorant that this is all purely speculation.  We're all passing time until the full spoils and card releases, what else is there to do at this point?

Edited by shosuko

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I think Shoju's getting too much credit.

Sure, he's a political beat-stick with a Political 7 and Glory 2, but against politically weak clans such as Crab and Lion, his action is a "win more" action, which is more insult to injury rather than actually helpful. Against high political clans like Crane, it's a very minor stat swing and with his 7 base stat, prob isn't even necessary. (He gets better if you assume that you can reliably dishonor your opponent, but that isn't something we've been seeing with Scorpion previews, so I don't know why people take it as a given).

In military conflicts, he's an over-priced 5 Fate for 3 Military and a blank action box. He does nothing except be a bad investment (even Kisada, with his 2 Pol, is useful in a Political conflict with his ability).

I hope to be proven very wrong, but I'm not really feelin' it.

tl;dr - Pol he's a "win-more" and Mil he's highly over-costed.

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2 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I think Shoju's getting too much credit.

Sure, he's a political beat-stick with a Political 7 and Glory 2, but against politically weak clans such as Crab and Lion, his action is a "win more" action, which is more insult to injury rather than actually helpful. Against high political clans like Crane, it's a very minor stat swing and with his 7 base stat, prob isn't even necessary. (He gets better if you assume that you can reliably dishonor your opponent, but that isn't something we've been seeing with Scorpion previews, so I don't know why people take it as a given).

In military conflicts, he's an over-priced 5 Fate for 3 Military and a blank action box. He does nothing except be a bad investment (even Kisada, with his 2 Pol, is useful in a Political conflict with his ability).

I hope to be proven very wrong, but I'm not really feelin' it.

tl;dr - Pol he's a "win-more" and Mil he's highly over-costed.

LMFAO!!! You make me laugh so hard!!!!!!

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2 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

tl;dr - Pol he's a "win-more" and Mil he's highly over-costed.

That's a really good argument and I'm convinced.

Further thoughts:

If a battle will be won by Shoju, it will probably also be won by Hotaru. Shoju will give you nothing extra for the victory, whereas Hotaru will give you extra ring effects.

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4 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I think Shoju's getting too much credit.

Sure, he's a political beat-stick with a Political 7 and Glory 2, but against politically weak clans such as Crab and Lion, his action is a "win more" action, which is more insult to injury rather than actually helpful. Against high political clans like Crane, it's a very minor stat swing and with his 7 base stat, prob isn't even necessary. (He gets better if you assume that you can reliably dishonor your opponent, but that isn't something we've been seeing with Scorpion previews, so I don't know why people take it as a given).

In military conflicts, he's an over-priced 5 Fate for 3 Military and a blank action box. He does nothing except be a bad investment (even Kisada, with his 2 Pol, is useful in a Political conflict with his ability).

I hope to be proven very wrong, but I'm not really feelin' it.

tl;dr - Pol he's a "win-more" and Mil he's highly over-costed.

I agree with this take at the moment. He's basically a 3 mil/9 pol who will likely cause an honor loss in any declared attack (either no defense or discard a lone defender) and likely break a province. 

If the Scorpion dishonor game is strong, that single honor loss may be relevant, but otherwise he likely just discards a character that was going to bow in resolution and fade at the end of the turn. If the Scorpion get a harpoon effect (get over here!!), and they can drag in characters with fate on them, the discard effect gets a big bump.

He's definitely solid, but I think he's a bit over hyped right now. My opinion is definitely subject to change based on the remaining Scorpion spoils.

My top three consists of two bottom feeders in many of these lists, Hotaru and Toturi, and then Yokuni as the third with no particular order, so I think it's easy to say I'm in the minority with my clan champ ranking.

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I think Shoju decks will love Rally To The Cause.  It's worth noting that Shoju is both a Bushi and a Courtier so he turns on a lot of conflict cards by himself.

I really want to try a proxy game for Scorpion, but I think we still have a bit too little spoiled to give it a good try.  Shoju is another piece of the puzzle for Scorpions to have a strategy of winning conflict by removing the opposition.  They seem to want to discard or take control of any problem character on the other side of the table.  If Scorpion have a huge conflict hand I would be worried just based of the few games I played against people splashing Scorpion.

ADD:  In any event I wouldn't describe him as win more.  I'm usually fighting for every point in important conflicts once conflict cards start flying.  Even just removing the discard effect he's effectively a 9 political character for 5 fate.  11 when honored and 7 when dishonored.  So even if he get's dishonored he's still efficient for his Fate cost.  That alone makes him pretty snazzy.  He's poised to get almost broken if they give him any support pieces like more cards that swap the conflict type or burn down political scores. 

Edited by phillos

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Mine :

 

1 - Kisada : his negate is very very strong

2 - shoju : as there is lot of combos that make him stop totally an attack or lot of situations where he just take a POL province easily.

A little gate here then ...

3 - Yokuni : all around he is good near everytimes he hit the table. Not the strongest in any situation but good overall anytime.

4 - Hoturi : stronger in crane than toturi in lion mainly because easier to honor and crane love more spam fire and air while lion could appeal any ring more.

5 - Toturi : still strong but less than hoturi in appropriate clan.

6 - Shinjo A : very situational but still a good POL force (honored or not) on a clan who lack it. She is perfect fit for her clan (would have been bad elsewhere) even if yes  I think fallen is a very bad card now but still on certain starts or tables, she is able to take down large characters... As noted above way of crab + assassination combo seems weak at first.. but clearly it is not.

7 - tsukune : the most beautiful maybe but the less impacting... This is relative as she is strong and clearly worth 5... all champions seems very good in their appropriate clans but kisada and shoju seems a little stronger maybe.

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I think that after seeing all the options now I would have rethink the rankings. I don't completely think you can rank on stats but they can lower a ranking. Why? Because all champions can take a province. Some are more versatile so they will be rated accordingly with that caveat influencing their ranking. I will put them in reverse order.

7.) Altansarnai - I wish I had more good to say but, sadly, I don't. Al's ability leaves a lot to be desired. It is a win more ability at best and not a horribly good one given how quickly characters can come and go. Not only that it is conditional, chosen by your opponent and can be played around just by having a sacrificial lamb... Sorry, Paul Simon's singing please don't call me Al.

6. Toturi - let me begin by saying that there is nothing inherently wrong with Toturi. He, and his counterpart in the crane, is a proper clan champion unlike number 7. His ability is actually useful. Double ring effect for a condition that is likely. You just have to win (not break the province). Yeah, it's kind of a win more effect but it can be so much more. It allows you turn versatility that can only be matched by a few other champions. The primary issue with him versus number five on this list...

5.) Hotaru - ...is that he Crane are more versatile than the Lion. The Wonder Twins can activate all they want but Hoturi adds more to her clan to shore up the weakness adding another target during military conflicts that is viable. Her predecessor is still likely the the best, brightest and, likely only hope for navigating the imperial palace for his clan. Funny that Toturi and the a Scorpion 1 drop have the same political might but Toturi loses his shirt when dishonored and the Scorpion is like 'give me more more more on the floor floor floor...'

4.) Shoju - The Scorpion in me feels bad that I have to put him at this level. Everyone  wants their champion to be the meanest... (Shoju) the prettiest... (Shoju) the baddest mofo low down around this town (Shoju)... and to some degree he is. If he hits the board, you will invariably think twice about facing him in a political conflict. His ability is a death knell for some clans and he complements his clan's other abilities. Here is the level where you have to start watching what and how you play. The condition for his ability is that you be in the conflict he is already going to play in. 

3.) Kisada - So someone is asking. Why is he here and not at number one? He is in fact a honey badger. And in his arena, he is amazing. Of course his ability can be played around... And he's really not that great with political. In fact the primary reason his is where he is comparatively is that there are two other champions that exist, one lower and one higher. Both can ruin his day. Shoju can just kill him if he opposes him no cards from hand. And the other, well you'll just have to wait and see... But otherwise his is solid as a rock... steady. Steady rockin' all night long...

2.) Yokuni - so now we are talking serious versatility. He is easily one of the most well rounded champions. Playing scorpion and worried about the dishonor? Scorpion have a way to deal with that but you know what? If they do, so does Yokuni. He can steal any other champion's ability except Kisada. He can steal dueling abilities; he can steal card draw abilities; you can bring someone back from a discard pile; So can he. He has a stupid skill cap though and requires thought when building a deck and the ability to asses board state  but, if those are his downsides, I'm in.

1.) Tsukune - My controversial choice of the evening is the youngest member of the crowd. Skillwise, she is versatile and significant. Normally I would consider her skills low but, you have to consider the raw unadulterated power of her ability. Yokuni can steal that ability and be almost identical in power level. But she has it innately. Being able to use 3 rings on attack and 2 on defense is ridiculous. She is a walking combo. Void/Water: I remove a fate and bow you. Air/Fire: Dishonor one of your characters about to leave play and steal an honor from you. Fire/Water: honor my already high glory personalities and ready one for use in another conflict. Earth/Air: Force an opponent discard and steal their honor... And the three ring comboes are even more stupid and those aren't all. Oh wait... Did I meantion that she doesn't have to be at the conflict and that it doesn't actually claim the 2 rings and that it can be done on offense or defense and that means once she is on the board you could play 4 rings abilities a turn. In fact you could play 2 rings abilities twice... If you win the conflict... Of whatever type. So you mean she has Toturi and Hotaru's abilities and she matches Yokuni stats when honored? Again, higher skill cap than some but show her some love. 

Regardless of ranking, I feel that in most cases, an excellent job was don't representing the clans through their champions. I am definitely looking forward to playing them all... Ok may be not Al but, I've never been big on the my little pony clan... 

Edited by Strange1

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:D fun remark... let's see after great tournaments...

 

Yet back to champion analysis, sure she is not the greatest no problem with that... but all champions seems close in term of powerlevel to me... kisada and shoju might have some distance to others but all others are very balanced and strong in their own clans...

Edited by Silme

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In my opinion, justo with the games i ve played, i ve noticed that i always want to recruit tsukune y kisada, almost always yokuni, seldom shoju, and never toturi, hotaru and altawhatever (but toturi gets a lot of table vía spiritcaller and charge)

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Unicorn champ would be broken in crab...

No way tsukune would replace my champ in unicorn clan... I prefer by far our mongol princess ! Yokuni sure, he would be well in synergy with lot of combos in our clan.

the evil twins i don't take any of them in unicorn clan... Altansarnai is still far better by a large margin IN OOUR DECKS (not in general balance)...I would take regarding how we work as clan synergy : kisada (would have been so OP in unicorn, we trade ?) or yokuni... that's all.

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On 8/14/2017 at 0:02 AM, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I think Shoju's getting too much credit.

Sure, he's a political beat-stick with a Political 7 and Glory 2, but against politically weak clans such as Crab and Lion, his action is a "win more" action, which is more insult to injury rather than actually helpful. Against high political clans like Crane, it's a very minor stat swing and with his 7 base stat, prob isn't even necessary. (He gets better if you assume that you can reliably dishonor your opponent, but that isn't something we've been seeing with Scorpion previews, so I don't know why people take it as a given).

In military conflicts, he's an over-priced 5 Fate for 3 Military and a blank action box. He does nothing except be a bad investment (even Kisada, with his 2 Pol, is useful in a Political conflict with his ability).

I hope to be proven very wrong, but I'm not really feelin' it.

tl;dr - Pol he's a "win-more" and Mil he's highly over-costed.

I don't think Shoju has any trouble murdering Crane characters.

 

Between the Fiery Madness, Sinister Soshi and multiple ways to dishonor characters (Way of the Scorpion, Court Games) as well as Yunako to switch their stats and Hiroue to drag a character in, you can pretty easily knock strength off a character with little effort.

 

A dishonored Hotaru is 3 political. Find one more minus ability from the above, and you're there.

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3 hours ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

I don't think Shoju has any trouble murdering Crane characters.

 

Between the Fiery Madness, Sinister Soshi and multiple ways to dishonor characters (Way of the Scorpion, Court Games) as well as Yunako to switch their stats and Hiroue to drag a character in, you can pretty easily knock strength off a character with little effort.

 

A dishonored Hotaru is 3 political. Find one more minus ability from the above, and you're there.

Shoju is an amazing champ, but its not that easy. Since the Scorpion were spoiled I feared this would be a horrible match-up for the Crane, so we played it quite extensively and it actually is almost perfectly balanced.

Crane have the most ways to counter Scorpion tricks than any other clan, between their Way, Court Games, Above Question, Steward of Law and Honored Guest. It usually comes down to who draws the most relevant cards during the game.

If Shoju hits the field you just trade with him and because Hotaru wins better the Scorpion player is usually the one that has to make the adjustments. But as I said, it comes down to how many relevant cards you draw because there usually are some pretty long chains of honor/dishonor going on.

 

On 8/18/2017 at 11:04 AM, Doji_Shiematsu said:

WoW :) imo id rather have toturi in scorpion and crane (more even un crane) that their champs, and yokuni and tsukune for sure. And ask unicorns... :)

 

What?!?! Toturi in Crane would be horrible. Lion can keep him for all we care. I am not trading that six political for almost anything unless it comes with a better ability. Also her usable 3(6) military, means that she can bully duel or Rout most other political characters out of the conflict making her even better.

Edited by blackheartz

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I would consider Scorpion and Crane as clans equally powerful against each other.  The honor system is mirrored well enough that they basically cancel each other out.  It will really come down to who drew the best cards, and plays most optimally between them.  This is good for the game, and I think this judgement would be found in most match ups.

If we are considering a penultimate single conflict between Hotaru and Shoju, I would give Shoju the edge.  Both have great support opposed to each other, but with equal play Shoju would likely win simply due to having an ability relevant to winning that single conflict.  If you widen the scope beyond that conflict, Hotaru's "win more" button can give a lot of benefit through the following turns that Shoju cannot.  Getting 2 honored / dishonor from a Ring of Fire, or gaining 4 (or taking 2) honor from a Ring of Air can really up the pressure on the game.

It would be up for the Scorpion to maximize their dirty tricks to ensure Hotaru doesn't win, even if it means delaying their own efforts towards victory.  She is 100% worthy of Way of the Scorpion -> I can Swim combo, and I would advise Crane reserve their Way of the Crane for cancelling any attempt to dishonor her.

Edited by shosuko

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5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I would consider Scorpion and Crane as clans equally powerful against each other.  The honor system is mirrored well enough that they basically cancel each other out.  It will really come down to who drew the best cards, and plays most optimally between them.  This is good for the game, and I think this judgement would be found in most match ups.

If we are considering a penultimate single conflict between Hotaru and Shoju, I would give Shoju the edge.  Both have great support opposed to each other, but with equal play Shoju would likely win simply due to having an ability relevant to winning that single conflict.  If you widen the scope beyond that conflict, Hotaru's "win more" button can give a lot of benefit through the following turns that Shoju cannot.  Getting 2 honored / dishonor from a Ring of Fire, or gaining 4 (or taking 2) honor from a Ring of Air can really up the pressure on the game.

It would be up for the Scorpion to maximize their dirty tricks to ensure Hotaru doesn't win, even if it means delaying their own efforts towards victory.  She is 100% worthy of Way of the Scorpion -> I can Swim combo, and I would advise Crane reserve their Way of the Crane for cancelling any attempt to dishonor her.

I think the tie breaker in that match up is the fact that the Crane event cancel has conditions (you need more honored characters), whereas Scorpion's doesn't really (have a non-dishonored courtier, but this is easy to obtain for Scorpion.)

 

But yea, it obviously comes down to whether or not the Scorpion player is able to make the dishonor stick.

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