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15 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

quick guess, some kind of yojimbo or shuggie rebirth ability

Maybe the rebirth, I doubt the yojimbo though because there's a separate Shiba Yojimbo card. Unless they both have yojimbo abilities, which...honestly, I think would just devalue Tsukune even further.

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After watching that live demo with Kisada in play, completely dominating the conflict phase, I stand by my initial rating for now.  Dragon even managed to get throw away actions to use and we'll as have a lot of attachements to try and circumvent Kisada......still got 3 cancels in the conflict and when Dragon finally won one....Kisada cracks back to take a province.

Of course we didn't see Kisada vs Yokuni, but with Way of the Crab in the mix, going all in on one character could be a big mistake. Can't wait to see someone try to attack a province with Kisada face up, only to have their dreams crusher by Charge and then getting their first action cancelled and Routed back home.  Lol.  

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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With the addition of Charge, I would have to place Toturi above Hotaru. Toturi doesn't seem to fit into the overall swarm theme of the Lion, but he becomes a giant tetsubo hanging over your opponent's head.

"Go ahead", he whispers, "Declare a military attack. After I win and claim the ring effects my Spiritcaller is going to bring me back every turn to make your life miserable." In effect, I'm not paying full price for Toturi. Unless Hotaru gets a similar card to "Charge" for political battles she will be slightly below Toturi for me.

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9 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

With the addition of Charge, I would have to place Toturi above Hotaru. Toturi doesn't seem to fit into the overall swarm theme of the Lion, but he becomes a giant tetsubo hanging over your opponent's head.

"Go ahead", he whispers, "Declare a military attack. After I win and claim the ring effects my Spiritcaller is going to bring me back every turn to make your life miserable." In effect, I'm not paying full price for Toturi. Unless Hotaru gets a similar card to "Charge" for political battles she will be slightly below Toturi for me.

She can only bring him back one turn ;). But yes. That is amazing.

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50 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

After watching that live demo with Kisada in play, completely dominating the conflict phase, I stand by my initial rating for now.  Dragon even managed to get throw away actions to use and we'll as have a lot of attachements to try and circumvent Kisada......still got 3 cancels in the conflict and when Dragon finally won one....Kisada cracks back to take a province.

Please remember that Brad admittedly made a lot of play mistakes and Erik made very few. If Brad had not been greedy on the first attack things would have played out very differently.

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18 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Please remember that Brad admittedly made a lot of play mistakes and Erik made very few. If Brad had not been greedy on the first attack things would have played out very differently.

Yeah - I questioned him not passing when he was in position to win, but I also questioned the Crab player defending with Kisada and passing with less POL.  The Crab player SHOULD have played rout immediately, and the Dragon player actually doing something saved that conflict for the Crab as much as the Crab passing would have given it to the Dragon.

While the Dragon player playing correctly and passing when ahead would have won the conflict, and shut down Kisada - the Crab player playing correctly would have meant rout action 1 and done.  They both made a mistake, and the mistakes basically cancel each other out.

What other mistakes do you think were made by each player?

Edited by shosuko

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37 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Please remember that Brad admittedly made a lot of play mistakes and Erik made very few. If Brad had not been greedy on the first attack things would have played out very differently.

Thats how most games played are won or lost. In hindsight, we could have done this or done that but the fact is Kisada's presence in the game, made the dragon use suboptimal actions and decisions that will very much likely happen on tournaments specially on early stages.

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12 minutes ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

Crab should not reminded Dragon of Kisada in the second round. ^_^

Sure, but in a test game its better to remind people ^_^ idk if I would consider that a "mistake" as much as it is that they are playing a demo game.  In a real match you would NEVER want to remind people of Kisada's ability of course. 

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24 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Yeah - I questioned him not passing when he was in position to win.  The Crab player SHOULD have played rout immediately, and the Dragon player actually doing something saved that conflict for the Crab.

While the Dragon player playing correctly and passing when ahead would have won the conflict, and shut down Kisada - the Crab player playing correctly would have meant rout action 1 and done.  They both made a mistake, and the mistakes basically cancel each other out.

I disagree, Erik passing was a smart move as Routing at the start would have left Brad a card down with a bowed Kisada versus a full strength Brad. He only Routed when he saw that Brad had everything necessary to break the province (bow DF to pop Kisada's Action barrier then bow Height of Fashion with Niten Adept to bow Kisada).

Send home is a lot weaker in the LCG than in the CCG in any conflict but the final conflict each round as anyone sent home can be assigned to latter conflicts. 

Just now, Bayushi Bajie said:

Thats how most games played are won or lost. In hindsight, we could have done this or done that but the fact is Kisada's presence in the game, made the dragon use suboptimal actions and decisions that will very much likely happen on tournaments specially on early stages.

It's less that Brad made a suboptimal move and more Brad forgot the main reason he was doing a Void conflict when he thought he had a good chance of breaking the province.

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1 hour ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I disagree, Erik passing was a smart move as Routing at the start would have left Brad a card down with a bowed Kisada versus a full strength Brad. He only Routed when he saw that Brad had everything necessary to break the province (bow DF to pop Kisada's Action barrier then bow Height of Fashion with Niten Adept to bow Kisada).

Send home is a lot weaker in the LCG than in the CCG in any conflict but the final conflict each round as anyone sent home can be assigned to latter conflicts. 

It's less that Brad made a suboptimal move and more Brad forgot the main reason he was doing a Void conflict when he thought he had a good chance of breaking the province.

If Dragon passed - Crab would have had a bowed Kisada with no ability, and given over the ring activation.  Especially considering the province would allow Crab to activate the ring by winning - I think it was very risky to leave the ring activation, and the loss of Kisada's ability on the table, relying on Dragon to be too greedy for some reason.

The Void ring would have certainly targeted Kisada, meaning a loss at that province would mean Kisada's death at the end of the turn.  I just don't see why he would have risked all of that on Dragon being greedy.

Edited by shosuko

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1 hour ago, shosuko said:

If Dragon passed - Crab would have had a bowed Kisada with no ability, and given over the ring activation.  Especially considering the province would allow Crab to activate the ring by winning - I think it was very risky to leave the ring activation, and the loss of Kisada's ability on the table, relying on Dragon to be too greedy for some reason.

At the same time, Niten Adept would have been bowed in resolution as well which might have been an acceptable result to Erik. From the moment Kisada was assigned to defend that first conflict, Erik was likely planning to use the Ring of Water to straighten him after the next conflict so that he could smash a province unopposed in the round's final conflict. Its looking like Rout was the backup plan if he thought Brad could break the province.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

The Void ring would have certainly targeted Kisada, meaning a loss at that province would mean Kisada's death at the end of the turn.  I just don't see why he would have risked all of that on Dragon being greedy.

Losing Kisada would have been only a minor setback in the long run (2 more copies were likely in the deck). Erik might have considered protecting one province and breaking another solo without using any conflict cards acceptable gain for 6 Fate.

Its likely that the devs have very different play mentalities considering that they have a lot more experience playing the LCG than we do. We might still be unintentionally holding onto a lot of conceits from the CCG that might not be full applicable in the LCG.

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7 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

After watching that live demo with Kisada in play, completely dominating the conflict phase, I stand by my initial rating for now.  Dragon even managed to get throw away actions to use and we'll as have a lot of attachements to try and circumvent Kisada......still got 3 cancels in the conflict and when Dragon finally won one....Kisada cracks back to take a province.

Of course we didn't see Kisada vs Yokuni, but with Way of the Crab in the mix, going all in on one character could be a big mistake. Can't wait to see someone try to attack a province with Kisada face up, only to have their dreams crusher by Charge and then getting their first action cancelled and Routed back home.  Lol.  

Yea, I think Kisada was very impressive in that gamee.

And that was with Brad having the Daimyo's favor to "waste" that first action each round.

You won't always have an easy to burn ability like that on the board and, when you don't, you'll be forced to use one of your big abilities or a conflict card to get around his text.

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8 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Please remember that Brad admittedly made a lot of play mistakes and Erik made very few. If Brad had not been greedy on the first attack things would have played out very differently.

A Dragon must be cautious and contemplative to achieve enlightenment (said in my best "mystic-sounding bullcrap" voice).

The thing that this game convinced me of wasn't the strength of Kisada's ability, actually. It was of the strength of that "7 military" in the corner of his card. I expected it to be strong--but dang, he was like a one-man army! o_0. I've never proxied and tried out the game--I guess this just goes to show I'll need some play experiance before I know what's strong, decent, and mediocre.

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28 minutes ago, Mandalore525 said:

A Dragon must be cautious and contemplative to achieve enlightenment (said in my best "mystic-sounding bullcrap" voice).

The thing that this game convinced me of wasn't the strength of Kisada's ability, actually. It was of the strength of that "7 military" in the corner of his card. I expected it to be strong--but dang, he was like a one-man army! o_0. I've never proxied and tried out the game--I guess this just goes to show I'll need some play experiance before I know what's strong, decent, and mediocre.

To be honest kisada's ability gave him close to nothing as he mostly denied some Daimyos favour triggers that Brad didn't really need. It is still annoying to play against though I guess and hopefully more useful against opponent that doesn't draw a hand of 3 Dimyos Favour

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21 hours ago, BordOne said:

To be honest kisada's ability gave him close to nothing as he mostly denied some Daimyos favour triggers that Brad didn't really need. It is still annoying to play against though I guess and hopefully more useful against opponent that doesn't draw a hand of 3 Dimyos Favour

You're right. I said in some other thread that his ability might be a bit too situational to be as excellent as some people thought it was. Now that I've seen him in action, I feel pretty vindicated. Still think he's a good card, but now I believe that's because he's got a great military stat and a decent ability. Still think Yokuni is the best champion released so far--unlike Kisada, his ability isn't dependent on what the opponent does to be good or bad, since you can copy one of your own characters' abilities. 

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23 hours ago, BordOne said:

To be honest kisada's ability gave him close to nothing as he mostly denied some Daimyos favour triggers that Brad didn't really need. It is still annoying to play against though I guess and hopefully more useful against opponent that doesn't draw a hand of 3 Dimyos Favour

To be honest, Crab didnt punish his opponent after the negation as he mostly just pass. He oft to with card advantage than capitalize on tempo loss.

But a Sneak Attack on offense and a Double Action on defense seems to be close to nothing when playing LCGs.

Edited by Bayushi Bajie

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1 hour ago, Mandalore525 said:

You're right. I said in some other thread that his ability might be a bit too situational to be as excellent as some people thought it was. Now that I've seen him in action, I feel pretty vindicated. Still think he's a good card, but now I believe that's because he's got a great military stat and a decent ability. Still think Yokuni is the best champion released so far--unlike Kisada, his ability isn't dependent on what the opponent does to be good or bad, since you can copy one of your own characters' abilities. 

idk - I think the Dragon are a bit unique in countering Kisada's ability.  They play down weapons rather than really take actions.  Plus Daimyo's Favor is practically written as "throw away" if Kisada is out.  I suspect Crane and Lion will find Kisada's ability a bit more daunting.

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1 hour ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

To be honest, Crab didnt punish his opponent after the negation as he mostly just pass. He oft to with card advantage than capitalize on tempo loss.

Well it probably means he didn't have anything to punish him with.

1 hour ago, Bayushi Bajie said:

But a Sneak Attack on offense and a Double Action on defense seems to be close to nothing when playing LCGs.

Love the snark on this one :P I didn't say the ability sucks in all circumstances I just pointed out that in the game shown on stream it didn't really do much. I can see it being better in less action heavy matchup for example Lion.

2 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

You're right. I said in some other thread that his ability might be a bit too situational to be as excellent as some people thought it was. Now that I've seen him in action, I feel pretty vindicated. Still think he's a good card, but now I believe that's because he's got a great military stat and a decent ability. Still think Yokuni is the best champion released so far--unlike Kisada, his ability isn't dependent on what the opponent does to be good or bad, since you can copy one of your own characters' abilities. 

Yup, I do belive that Yokuni is the best champion right now. Kisada's ability is very good against Lion though(and clans that tend to not draw as much/don't have repeatable actions in conflict) - often he will deny me box ability that I need to win the conflict/break province. I still feel that he might be the weakest up to date(yes I went there, didn't have the chance to field him myself yet though), especially with indirect buff to Hotaru(Court Games). 

On the other hand he does seem to posses this "annoyance" factor that Yokuni also has in that he warps whole game around him and makes opponent overthink a lot. It cannot be overlooked I guess.

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