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https://medium.com/@oliverpocknell/whatmeta-fighting-for-the-little-guy-or-is-it-misleading-24bcdbad27a0

The Leebo win in the European Champs has begun a run of top U.K. players deliberately avoiding meta lists and this article highlights why that's working for them!

Good positive vibes from this piece.  It's the second blog of Oli's that I've recommended in a short space of time - if he's not on your reading list he probably should be!

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Love the paint job on the bots :-) The thing is the author think he won the Euro with a list thats not "meta". Its Dashing Miranda but with Leebo instead of Dash. It's still a meta list. He still used the most OP rebel pilot.

Edited by Thormind

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10 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Love the paint job on the bots :-) The thing is the author think he won the Euro with a list thats not "meta". It Miranda/Dash but with Leebo instead of Dash. It's still a meta list. He still used the most OP rebel pilot.

Thanks :-) Red 'uns go faster!

Of course it's still a meta-list. But it's not what people consider the meta-list. We saw clearly the amount of confusion (and derision) from people across the pond when the results were announced, because it didn't conform exactly to their idea of what the "correct" meta-call was supposed to be.

I think that's the point Oliver was trying to make.

Edited by jesper_h
Missed a word

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But... isn't a tiny variation on a meta list to counter the normal version of that meta list in the mirror match a time-honoured tradition of X-Wing (and top tier competitive gaming in general) going back to whichever worlds it was where the winner was the guy who used a fat Han built to beat other fat Hans, rather than to kill everything else?

That feels like the sort of decision that might have gone into Leebo/Miranda rather than Dash/Miranda (IIRC it gained the build Countermeasures to weather and reduce alpha strikes and a lot of crit protection, in exchange for a bit of PS and arc dodging/donut reducing capacity, which at 7 is not dodging many people, especially with only one action), though I'm not sure.

It's not like people are winning with Punishers.

I have every ounce of respect for people doing well with whatever list - but when we're talking about the likes of Rasta, Jesper, Oli, and Sim, I'd be pretty sure that it's more the player than the list that's doing the winning, as long as it's something at least semi competitive, and in the right 16-player SC, I'd rate any of those players' chances of taking the trophy with even the least meta things in the game.

I'm not really equipped to comment I guess, but... Store Champ season is when people play things that aren't that meta, try new stuff, play fun games, and practice weird and wonderful lists.  It's great but genuine question: who here would bring double ion bots to Worlds?

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9 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah. Does it make you feel empowered? Yes! Yay! ......but he's flying Scum. Flexible ones at that. Let the chap run an Interceptor Squad for a while against all comers, then I'll read his blog.

Can't please everyone, I guess?

Edited by jesper_h

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@clanofwolves

Firstly was my blog. Not Jespers or Simeon's, 

 

Secondly, if you said fly interceptors a year ago, then you would be playing easy mode.

Its how the meta itself shifts. Why not bring your own shift on how to kill the present meta and see how it goes for you.

Instead of trying to shoehorn a perceived 'bad squad' into someone's hands just to prove to yourself that they're not all that.

 

I think its going to be squints time again soon, with less action bombs and more tlt on the horizon. We will see but I intend to try and read and take advantage of it ;)

Edited by Oli_186th

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15 hours ago, Oli_186th said:

@clanofwolves

Firstly was my blog. Not Jespers or Simeon's, 

Secondly, if you said fly interceptors a year ago, then you would be playing easy mode.

Its how the meta itself shifts. Why not bring your own shift on how to kill the present meta and see how it goes for you.

Instead of trying to shoehorn a perceived 'bad squad' into someone's hands just to prove to yourself that they're not all that.

I think its going to be squints time again soon, with less action bombs and more tlt on the horizon. We will see but I intend to try and read and take advantage of it ;)

Yeah, well, my salt --when provoked-- is real. I apologize for the following unnecessary, but honest statements:

Yeah, you can say flying Interceptors a year ago was "easy mode"....whatever. My two favorites to fly (Kanos and Lorrir) in a squad with Vader or a 3rd tier Imperial ordinance ship (thanks again FFG for sticking the Empire with the crappiest of the bunch) don't even have EPTs, and two mod slots thanks to the Royal Guard Title haven't had any new hotness mods in a year to put in there, so I'm stuck with the usual suspects (PTL, Targeting Computer, Stealth Device) and hope you fly your a** off and have great green dice to survive at least five rounds as you inevitably loose. So yeah, when FFG decided to stick it to the arc dodgers I love with the anti and creep releases, they did it real good....real good.

Brobots?? In my opinion, one CANNOT whine about and show glory as a winning pilot when you fly something with so many modification and customization possibilities --especially the Elicit and EPT with that Title-- oh, and add in a TIE Fighter like dial on a big base? What? I'm not buying the hype; the OP can pat his own back and try to say, "I did it, so can you; rah, rah!" But that's just a very good list doing well; nothing to overly hype in my book.

Again, my apologies if I stepped on any toes or hurt any feelers.....

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15 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, you can say flying Interceptors a year ago was "easy mode"....whatever. My two favorites to fly (Kanos and Lorrir) in a squad with Vader or a 3rd tier Imperial ordinance ship...

I mean, as a Scum player I'm not going to build a list around Graz the Hunter and Sarco Plank and expect to do fantastically well either.  Every faction has some dud pilots.

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17 hours ago, Thormind said:

Love the paint job on the bots :-) The thing is the author think he won the Euro with a list thats not "meta". Its Dashing Miranda but with Leebo instead of Dash. It's still a meta list. He still used the most OP rebel pilot.

I do share this specific thought about the Leebo win.  For all the 'omg Leebo won!' it was, what, 2 cards different to existing Dash squads that had won regionals just a couple of months earlier.  And was in the final in a virtual mirror match against Dash.  It's a nice smart tweak, but I don't know if it's non-meta.  I love the changes, it's really smart, glad it succeeded.  Wasn't revolutionary, though.

Jesper's Ionbots are great though.  So many of the things I think are good right now gathered in one place where I hadn't even considered they could be assembled together.

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6 minutes ago, SOTL said:

What's happening to action bombs?

Nothing as far as I'm aware, just that with the bomblet generator taking up two slots I think we will see more reveal bombs over the action bombs when the havoc drops. 

 

Squints are better at dodging those with the boost barrel roll :)

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44 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, well, my salt --when provoked-- is real. I apologize for the following unnecessary, but honest statements:

Yeah, you can say flying Interceptors a year ago was "easy mode"....whatever. My two favorites to fly (Kanos and Lorrir) in a squad with Vader or a 3rd tier Imperial ordinance ship (thanks again FFG for sticking the Empire with the crappiest of the bunch) don't even have EPTs, and two mod slots thanks to the Royal Guard Title haven't had any new hotness mods in a year to put in there, so I'm stuck with the usual suspects (PTL, Targeting Computer, Stealth Device) and hope you fly your a** off and have great green dice to survive at least five rounds as you inevitably loose. So yeah, when FFG decided to stick it to the arc dodgers I love with the anti and creep releases, they did it real good....real good.

Brobots?? In my opinion, one CANNOT whine about and show glory as a winning pilot when you fly something with so many modification and customization possibilities --especially the Elicit and EPT with that Title-- oh, and add in a TIE Fighter like dial on a big base? What? I'm not buying the hype; the OP can pat his own back and try to say, "I did it, so can you; rah, rah!" But that's just a very good list doing well; nothing to overly hype in my book.

Again, my apologies if I stepped on any toes or hurt any feelers.....

Nah don't worry bud, I think I caught the wrong meaning there first time round and snapped at ya,

 

Its incredibly frustrating how arc dodgers have been edged out for the last year and a half. My favorite pilot is and will always be Jake Farrel with prockets and I had  many a good duel with Vader and other interceptor pilots.

 

The main issue I have found is the defense of things at the moment, its that much harder to kill something with a well placed squint than it used to be and so you have to fly perfectly again and again and again to make a dent. As you say its almost impossible now.

 

Makes me sad but I'm getting Jake out of the box again for wave eleven to see if he has legs! 

Jess Jake and Nym is a good one that I'm looking to try right now ! 

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Being able to win a tournament, even a major one, with non-meta lists, does not mean anyone can do it.

Player skill on both sides of the table, for the entire tournament, must be considered.

Dice variance, for the entire tournament, must be considered.

Meta lists are the "meta" because they start off bridging the gap for those two elements as much as possible - they don't generally have bad matchups, meaning the ship performance suffers less in the hands of less-experienced players. They also, for the most part, have an answer for dice variance, either through excessive token stacking, hyper action efficiency, whatever.

They are absolutely NOT the only thing that can win, they just start off in a better place. Anyone willing to put the time and practice in a list has the ability to outperform a less experienced/capable player... But they're having to put more work into it because they're not following the meta. The best players, imo, tend to go off-meta, but they have to work harder to win. They have the benefit of surprise, or a reasonable expectation to build a counter to "hot" lists, but it's definitely more work.

Honestly, this whole movement seems more geared to shaming net-deckers, which is something I've always found disgusting, in any game. Let folks play what they want, net-decked or otherwise.

 

Congrats and all, the winners 100% deserve their wins, but meh on the "fly what you love" message. The real answer is, "fly what you have time to learn." And you're going to learn the "intricacies" if Rau Boats or DenTel long before you learn Brobots.

 

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4 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Honestly, this whole movement seems more geared to shaming net-deckers, which is something I've always found disgusting, in any game. Let folks play what they want, net-decked or otherwise.

That's not the message I got from the article. It's also certainly not a message I've ever supported. I'm curious where you got the impression anybody is trying to "shame net-deckers" from?

6 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Being able to win a tournament, even a major one, with non-meta lists, does not mean anyone can do it.

Player skill on both sides of the table, for the entire tournament, must be considered.

But isn't this exactly what the author wrote?

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I can see the math reasons people are upset, but I'm not onboard with the "Imps have it so rough" train quite yet.

I don't really play at my LGS, but my friend does run a Manaroo + protectorate list, that I was able to do some work on with an Upsilon shuttle and two Royal Guard interceptors. The only thing that really got me was being beaten in PS by one of his aces (could adjust and get me in his arc).  I always ended up losing one interceptor in the alpha strike, but with flying and strategy, was able to keep him on the ropes for the rest of the match.  I was sort of shooting myself in the foot by leading with my fighters, but it was a new list for me and I didn't think to lead with my Upsilon until the end of the second game (My "oh yeah I took that filler Tactical Jammer upgrade" moment).  Mainly built the list as a theme list, Emperor with actual royal guard escorts, and didn't expect it to be amazing, but it was still fun and effective.

List: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v4!s!228:44,132,-1,-1,-1:45:14:;58:27:5:15:M.5;58:27:5:15:M.5&sn=Emperor Derpatine&obs

If I ran all interceptors against him (might try this next time with Carnor Jax to counter his protectorates), I think I would be favored to win as I fly a little better.

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"I ran something slightly different taste that has already been proven to win", I'm sorry but I don't believe you got behind your own mantra. Your non meta list is a small variant on an already know quantity with a splash of anti local meta thrown in. I remember taking 3 RGPs and dark curse to my first regional, this was back when they first came out. So no autothrusters and I ran hull not stealth. I remember the snide comments that people made about my list. I ended up taking 3rd.

 

You want me to get behind fly what you want, I wanna see you fly unproven interesting things. Heck, as much as I don't like FGD, he at least showed the punisher could be used, and (for the life of me the guy that flies defenders) proved that before the fixes vessery and rexler were potent ships with HLC and a good load out. Now does it have to be completely off the wall? No, but if you staple a known quantity (Miranda) and toss another ship in or take a highly customizable ship that is still potent with lean upgrades (IG) you can be prepared for people to call you on it. 

 

It's a vary good thing to advocate don't get me wrong, but when the lead supporters just barely are able to use that flag... It has a bit of irony in it. Either way you did take a higher skill required ship in this meta and did well, so congrats on that. I do believe a well flown IG pairing is a good counter to the current meta.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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48 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Congrats and all, the winners 100% deserve their wins, but meh on the "fly what you love" message. The real answer is, "fly what you have time to learn." And you're going to learn the "intricacies" if Rau Boats or DenTel long before you learn Brobots.

I think the "Fly what you love" message applies in all cases. Some people just love winning, so they'll fly whatever will help them win.  Some people don't want to be ParatanniPlayer#37848, so they'll create their own list and, win or lose, come out satisfied.

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I didn't come into this thread expecting to have to defend myself. I'm neither the author of the article, or the one who posted it here.

What I did was pick up my favourite ship (the IG-2000) that hasn't been seen much the last few waves, tweak a build which felt quite interesting, and took it down to an event to test it out against the competitive meta.

- Was I suggesting netlists are bad and those players who use them are a bunch of numpties? Nope.

- Was I suggesting that it's an uncompetitive build? Nope.

- Was I suggesting that lists win tournaments and not player skill? Nope.

- Was I suggesting people should immediately play rubbish ships? Nope.

It's unfortunate, really. How a single hashtag added to a post on Facebook to highlight that "the meta" is both wider and more complex than what people might initially think, can so quickly become twisted and interpreted so differently between so many people.

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