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Joe Censored

Was it a **** move not letting opponent change his dial turn 1?

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10 hours ago, Joe Censored said:

My opponent then immediately concedes.  I felt terrible. 

...

I really thought he should play it out with me, and he still had an excellent chance to win, but when he walked away I felt like garbage for the next couple hours. 

Was I being a jerk?  Would you have let him change his dial to whatever he says he really wanted to dial in?  Or would you have called for the judge like I did?

Everyone will agree that what you did was right, by the letter of the rules.

Going beyond the letter of the law is going to get into value judgments, so no one's saying you're wrong, but plenty of people are saying it would be the wrong thing for them, personally, to do.

A lot of people are also pointing out that this was a good learning experience for him; that he'll be sure to double-check his dials from then on.

Not many people have pointed out that this was a good learning experience for you, too.  You learned how it feels to uphold the rules the way you did.  From what I'm seeing, it's hit your conscience pretty hard.  When you're saying a part of you silently would have been pleased that the judge would allow the change, that's pretty indicative that you only wanted him there to alleviate the guilt you felt.  There's no need to call a judge if the rules are crystal clear.  Why not just flip a coin, if that's how you felt?  Let the opponent blame the result on random chance!

 

My sincere wish for you is that you don't allow the fact that you did the right thing by the book to mute your conscience for any future cases should this sort of thing come up.

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IMO you did the right thing and the fact that you felt bad just shows that you are human.

nothing wrong with that.

 

As a new player myself, I have made plenty of mistakes

like flying RAC off the board because I misjudged how close it was(I measured, it was less than 1.5mm), still embarrassing as heck.

and most of the time, people have told me that they would allow me to fix it

 

but because I want to learn how to play properly and learn from my mistakes, I don't do it. although there are some I wish I did, like the RAC moment lol

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16 minutes ago, DarthCognis said:

Situations like this are why I dont go to Tournaments. Its just toxic to fun 

Well that's just not true. :)

 

Granted, most players tend to take tournaments (especially the Big Ones) more seriously than casual play, and that naturally means we'll likely have less fun than we normally would... but given that we normally have heaps of fun, having less than heaps still leaves a lot of fun to be had. ;)

 

Your point does raise the issue of playing against those who take tournaments way too seriously. I've had a couple of games that have just been flat out no fun at all because my opponent was complaining about the dice and the meta and everything he could think of just because he was losing. I tend to find, though, that these players are only happy when they're winning, regardless of whether it's in tournament or casual play. Happy to say, these kinds of players are in the vast minority when it comes to X-Wing.

 

Shine on, you crazy diamonds! :D

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You are not the first one askin such questions :)

I think you did the right thing at the moment. Although, for a new player I would have allowed to change his dial if the ship was flying off the board. For a skilled player - most probably not.

Last tournament I had a similar situation: My opponent set his Omega facing away from other ships and went the other way - I did not allow to change his dial, as it was still on the board. On the other hand, our first ever tournament a few years back included the following situation - I forgot to regen with corran and the opponent allowed, near the end of the match he dialed a wrong move and sent his TIE fighter the wrong way, he asked to change to the correct one and I allowed. This allowed him to block my Corran on a rock and kill it. That cost me the game :D There was a topic with a long discussion here on that, but it was locked at the end. Also, last tournament a new player mixed up his dials for Howlrunner and an Academy, asked me to roll back (I had already moved) and said he was ready to face the concequences and ready to move the ship according to the dial. As I had already moved, I kindly asked him to move according to the dial.

7 hours ago, Gilarius said:

I think it depends on who you want to be: Are you a stickler for the rules? Or someone there to make friends and enjoy every game, whether you win or lose?

Looking at this, from my personal point of view, I am pretty sure I know the rules best in our gaming community and I try to make people follow them or teach them - e.g. a person was using a 3 template to measure beyond Range 1 during set up as "but I want to see where the ship will go". I think every person on a tournament wants to win something. Otherwise you can just come and play a casual game. 

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I had something similar happen to me in the top 8 of a Nationals, my opponent had placed one of his TIEs, pointing at himself during deployment.

When the game started we noticed - and I told him to flip the TIE so that it pointed the right way - and he did - and we had a good game.

 

As to OP's game, yes I would have let him change the dial without involving a judge, because I wouldn't want to win an easy game - the best games are the ones that come down to a single roll of a die.

Edited by Keffisch

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11 hours ago, Joe Censored said:

So to be clear, in a fun game I would have let him change his dial, but this was a store champs tournament.  My opponent placed his Asajj Ventress so it was parallel with his side of the board.  I don't know if he forgot which direction he had his ship facing or if he simply dialed in the wrong direction, but Asajj was the 3rd ship to move and he reveals a 3 speed hard turn that sails Asajj right off the board.  He immediately asks me if he can change it, and instead I call for the judge.  The judge ruled the dial says the ship is flying off the board so that is that.  My opponent then immediately concedes.  I felt terrible. 

He was flying a mindlink list of Asajj, Manaroo, and Fenn against my trench crew Wedge, Luke, and Biggs.  I kinda hoped the judge would let him change his dial, but I knew the odds were against me to win this and I thought Fenn plus the Jumpmaster vs my T-65's was actually making this an even match and if I wanted a win today I needed to take any ship losses my opponent hands me.  If the judge had let him keep the ship, then fine, it wasn't me handing my opponent a free ship save, and I would have been perfectly happy, but nope.  I literally said to the judge, "I don't want to be a ****, but I do want to win this" and let my opponent take it from there with the judge.  I really thought he should play it out with me, and he still had an excellent chance to win, but when he walked away I felt like garbage for the next couple hours. 

Was I being a jerk?  Would you have let him change his dial to whatever he says he really wanted to dial in?  Or would you have called for the judge like I did?

In a tournament game, there is nothing that allows you to give an opponent the opportunity to change their dial. in a casual game, give all the take backs you want. After all, iron sharpens iron (thanks Joe Rogan podcast). If I was judging an event and I saw two players doing this, I would force them to perform the maneuver as dialed in. To allow your opponent a take back that's in violation of the rules would be collusion.

What you did was the correct course of action. Others have said that calling a judge over to confirm is just deflecting the responsibility for you actions, but this is the best way to handle contentious situations. It calms the situation down. You're not deflecting the responsibility to the judge, you're deflecting it to the rules.

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12 hours ago, kris40k said:

Didn't Paul Heaver set up all his TIEs facing backwards (the edge) one tournament?

I don't know.

I know I've done that repeatedly in my early games, and I adopted Team Covenant's recommended "set up TIE's flying along the board edge" deployment not because it lets me slow roll into contact (the reason they say) but because if I've screwed up and deployed them facing the wrong way they won't fly off the board!

 

And no, it wasn't a bad move. It was a tournament, and he flew off the board. I'm with @Admiral Deathrain:

Quote

You are under no obligation at all to let him change his dial and honestly while usually I would offer it to my opponents, if someone immediatly pushes me to let him do it I won't. You definitly were not a jerk here, he was, especially with the knee-jerk concede that just makes him look like some salty kid.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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I wonder if it's a coincidence that the people saying he should have allowed his opponent to change the dial have all made cut at Nationals - myself, Keffisch, Jesper is a former U.K. champ?

Is it a confidence/validation thing?  Everything is amped up x100 in Magic but my experience of that was that the true pros were way more relaxed and casual about stuff than the guys a level or two under them.  Some of those guys could get really bitter and rules-lawyery.

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Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I wonder if it's a coincidence that the people saying he should have allowed his opponent to change the dial have all made cut at Nationals - myself, Keffisch, Jesper is a former U.K. champ?

Is it a confidence/validation thing?  Everything is amped up x100 in Magic but my experience of that was that the true pros were way more relaxed and casual about stuff than the guys a level or two under them.  Some of those guys could get really bitter and rules-lawyery.

Paul Heaver and his opponent allowed a mistake at the end of the finals match of World. A high level mistake too.  Something like dial set incorrectly. 

DarkTemplar allowed a take back or a nudge at US Nationals.  Something very high profile, on stream, still won.  Community gave him shtt for it howling like a proverbial banshee for something they never even saw. 

One of the recent big tournaments had the same issue. 

 

Honestly: Esp since you guys both lost, I woulda cut him some slack. Although, depending on how much hate i had for fenn 2 boats at the time I mighta not even called the judge to tell him to honour the bad move. hahaha. 

I'm also a complete opponent for the idiocy of lessons learned the hard way. Though, I will note I recently flew my first ship off the board after 2 years of playing.  And I hate tournaments. 

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Also, the amount of salt over the guy immediately conceding is a bit odd.  

Honestly, I wouldn't want to play a game at 2/3s health, I wouldn't really really want to play vs someone who also felt like they needed to do that (though in your defense you do say you were kind of new to judge calls, I'm not).  Frankly, after losing the first match and flying my next ship in the next game off the board, I'd chalk to a crummy day, money wasted, no chance of going home with much.  I'd probably honestly concede the match, pack up, drop out and go home and play something else.  And never play another tournament again.  

Which... is also odd because I've gone first place at both tourneys I ever played at and I never really want to play another tourney ever again. (And those had no rules issues)

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2 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

Tbh it sounds like this guy wanted to have his cake and eat it.

You can't take a list like Fenn, Asajj and Manaroo to a tournament and then expect people to let you off your mistakes.

Lol.  

 

I'd think about for 27 seconds based on how mad I was about bad game balance that day. 

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I suppose it comes down to why you enter a tournament. I want to spend a day playing quality games of X-Wing, so I will be lenient on obvious mistakes, especially if they are very likely to decide the match way too early. I don't want to be taken advantage of with that attitude, though, so when someone gets pushy he doesn't get anything.

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I have one (broadly) general rule that I try sticking to throughout all my games, whether they be casual store kits or major competitive events.

If my opponent forgets something significant, which was an obvious mistake in the moment, or a lapse of concentration at the end of a long day? I make sure to remind them once and point out that if they forget a second time, that's on them.

For example: "Mate, you forgot to regain a shield with R2-D2 last turn." or "You didn't give my ship a stress with Asajj, would you like to do that now?" or "Why didn't you take your action with that ship? Don't worry, just put a focus token on, it's cool."

Some things can't be rolled back; such as remembering you forgot to attack with something after the combat phase is over. In which case, you have to just shrug and say sorry, let's remember next time.

Many players will say "You know what, that was my mistake, and I need to learn so let's just play on." And that's okay, because I'm like that too; I want to learn from my mistakes and get better. But at the same time, there are many players for whom a gesture like that will improve their overall tournament experience. I want to be the kind of player that somebody will enjoy playing against again, and if my opponent has a great time, I have a great time.

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Calling the judge was actually pretty smart. Stores are relaxed tier now - judge was free to ask you "are you ok with him changing?" or just say no. And its always good when its someone else who says "no" not you :D

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15 hours ago, Joe Censored said:

So to be clear, in a fun game I would have let him change his dial, but this was a store champs tournament.  My opponent placed his Asajj Ventress so it was parallel with his side of the board.  I don't know if he forgot which direction he had his ship facing or if he simply dialed in the wrong direction, but Asajj was the 3rd ship to move and he reveals a 3 speed hard turn that sails Asajj right off the board.  He immediately asks me if he can change it, and instead I call for the judge.  The judge ruled the dial says the ship is flying off the board so that is that.  My opponent then immediately concedes.  I felt terrible. 

He was flying a mindlink list of Asajj, Manaroo, and Fenn against my trench crew Wedge, Luke, and Biggs.  I kinda hoped the judge would let him change his dial, but I knew the odds were against me to win this and I thought Fenn plus the Jumpmaster vs my T-65's was actually making this an even match and if I wanted a win today I needed to take any ship losses my opponent hands me.  If the judge had let him keep the ship, then fine, it wasn't me handing my opponent a free ship save, and I would have been perfectly happy, but nope.  I literally said to the judge, "I don't want to be a ****, but I do want to win this" and let my opponent take it from there with the judge.  I really thought he should play it out with me, and he still had an excellent chance to win, but when he walked away I felt like garbage for the next couple hours. 

Was I being a jerk?  Would you have let him change his dial to whatever he says he really wanted to dial in?  Or would you have called for the judge like I did?

Yes, it was an ******* move. Legitimate, but ******* nonetheless. Especially as this was not a formal event, but just a store champ. 
I might have done the same … in a regional. In store championships my own track record has plenty of moments when I allowed an opponent to change his dial into what he intended to reveal, instead of what he actually had revealed. 

Still, playing it by the rules is fine. But when you are hoping yourself that the judge would rule it in your opponent's favor, you know that you are being a jerk for calling the judge in the first place. And the worst part about it is that incidents  like this will drag you down, while even losing this match would have affected the rest of the tournament in a positive way. On top would have been your opponent out of balance after that move, which usually is enough to take the win regardless anyway. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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I would have let him change his dial, but I totally understand why you called a Judge.  The thing here is that neither of the options is wrong.  Letting him change his dial would have been a lovely thing to do but in tournament play you are completely within your rights to not allow it and to call a judge, it was his mistake not yours.

Feeling conflicted about it just means you're a decent person who is able to empathise with another human.

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