Feedback on Wave 6, Sloane-counter Rebel fleet

[ManInTheBox 618]

Thanks for looking here. I'd really appreciate any feedback on fleet composition, objectives or strategies.

I've had a very sub-par run with Armada over the last couple of waves. For wave 6 I'm trying to build a strong all-rounder fleet that doesn't rely on gimmicks and has strong defences against the expected glut of Sloane led fleets. I'm not in the camp of "ZOMG SLOANE APLOCALYPSE" but any fleet building now needs to take account of her existence and a lot of players are going to be trying her out.

With all this in mind, I've been trying to combine as many of the following elements into a fleet:

1. BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) of vanilla squadrons (to avoid getting defence tokens stripped).
2. A decent amount of AA/Flak
3. A means of messing with carrier commands.
4. A way of deterring and/or destroying the threat from the expected Avenger follow up shots. 
5. A resilient Flagship with resistance to token stripping.
6. A respectable amount of damage output to make strong tournament victories possible.
7. At least one Hammerhead (because they're the new toys and I want to play with them).

Balancing all of those, this is the best balance I've come up with so far.

Swiss Army Knife Anti-Sloane (400/400)
===========================
MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 + 47)
    + General Dodonna (20)
    + Walex Blissex (5)
    + Electronic Countermeasures (7)
    + Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
    + Leading Shots (4)
    + XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 10)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Flechette Torpedoes (3)
    + Task Force Antilles (3)
Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 8)
    + Boarding Engineers (2)
    + External Racks (3)
    + Task Force Antilles (3)
Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 8)
    + Cham Syndulla (5)
    + Task Force Antilles (3)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 7)
    + Leia Organa (3)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
Jan Ors (19)
3 x X-wing Squadron (13)
2 x A-wing Squadron (11)
Advanced Gunnery
Contested Outpost
Dangerous Territory

 

Th MC80 Assault is the Rebels most defensive fleet ship, being both hardy and with the double defensive slot. With Walex on board it should be able to mitigate some token stripping and should be able to take a hit from avenger with no brace token available. It's also capable of putting out some hefty damage and Leading shots with XI7s make it very dangerous at close range. I would have preferred to fit Defiance, to push more damage, or provide a means of using Leading shots at range.

There are 3 Task Force Antillies Hammerheads with different roles . Hopefully TFA will prove to be enough of a benefit to keep them alive long enough to do their jobs.

The Flechette HH is there to follow the BARCAP into the squadron fight and switch off and damage as many of the Sloane squadrons as possible to prevent them getting to the flagship. This should be useful against any fleet with squadrons.

The Boarding Engineers/External Racks HH is there as a follow up punch after the XI7 shots from the MC80 and as a discouragement to closing with the Flagship (who it will be trailing). It does rely on something else putting down the damage first.

Cham Syndulla is there to shut down carrier commands or to stop help Avenger delivering Boarding Troopers (or just generally to monkey around with large command stacks). I'd like to have put external racks on this to make it more of a general threat against fleets with low command stacks or who don't hinge on specific commands.

The transport is there to push squadrons from beside the MC80 with Boosted Comms, provide some command flexibility and activation padding. I'd have liked to fit Bright Hope

The BARCAP squadrons operate as a two wave force with the A-Wings Intercepting and pinning (wide enough to prevent a single Intel freeing both at once) and the Jan/X-Wings following up and laying down the hurt whilst using Jan's braces (that can't be targeted by Sloane's squads whilst they're under escort).

The objectives seemed fairly obvious. Advanced Gunnery because: MC80. Contested Outpost to make them bring the fight to me whilst I sit behind it and  Dangerous Territory because there is no other decent blue that I can run without Strategic squadrons.

I feel like this list satisfies most of the criteria that I established. It's light on straight AA fire, given that the MC80 will probably be shooting at ships and cant take Gunnery Teams, but the Flechette HH provides a notable assist. I'm not 100% sure that it has enough straight firepower but I'm hoping the Hammerheads will prove to be enough of a diversified threat.

What do you think? Am I barking up the right tree or am I missing key elements to make this a credible threat to all comers?

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by ManInTheBox

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

It looks quite good, except I don't think you need Leia crew and Boarding engineers.  Your squadorn package is... okay.  It'll do well vs medium fighters, it will buy you perhaps 2 turns vs max 134, but you'll lose all of them and then likely 2 hammerheads.  (trade for time)

 

I would think that RBD and Leading Shots isn't that required, but I'm not sure what to replace for slightly more firepower.  ET for rams and maneuverability?  DBTs?

[Tiberius the Killer 465]

I like your goals!  I'm trying to do a very similar thing.

I have come to love the MC80 with Engine Techs, I say take it if you can.  While it's not nearly as cool, perhaps you could save some points with a slicer Bright hope or quantum storm?  It could still cause possibly 2 turns of mischief, which may be all you need.  That could save you enough points for other goodies like Defiance, ET, bright hope on your other transport.

You are making me tinker with my MC80 hammerhead list, good ideas.  I think Walex Blissex might be necessary on the MC80 now.  And maybe Jan plus x-wings too for the CAP.

[ManInTheBox 618]

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

It looks quite good, except I don't think you need Leia crew and Boarding engineers.  Your squadorn package is... okay.  It'll do well vs medium fighters, it will buy you perhaps 2 turns vs max 134, but you'll lose all of them and then likely 2 hammerheads.  (trade for time)

 

I would think that RBD and Leading Shots isn't that required, but I'm not sure what to replace for slightly more firepower.  ET for rams and maneuverability?  DBTs?

You're right about the squadrons, they won't win me the fighter... fight. The're there to limit the effectiveness of opponents' squads and to whittle down the health of Sloane squads (since they're likely to be low hull fighters).

Why do you feel RBD and Leading Shots are the weak points here? Leading shots always seemed to me to be a no-brainer on big dice pools with a load of reds and at least a blue. Those swingy reds are too unreliable and 4 points seems cheap for more reliability for when the big hits need to matter.
Boarding Engineers are definitely more situational. They seemed to be a force multiplier against big ships that can weather a lot of hull damage, but it's all untested at the moment.

Leia is insurance and flexibility, but not crucial to the build since MC80 doesn't need specific commands if it gets slicered.

ETs is definitely something i'd like in the list but couldn't fit. What's DBTs? I'm probably being thick but I can't think what you mean! 

[ManInTheBox 618]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

I like your goals!  I'm trying to do a very similar thing.

I have come to love the MC80 with Engine Techs, I say take it if you can.  While it's not nearly as cool, perhaps you could save some points with a slicer Bright hope or quantum storm?  It could still cause possibly 2 turns of mischief, which may be all you need.  That could save you enough points for other goodies like Defiance, ET, bright hope on your other transport.

You are making me tinker with my MC80 hammerhead list, good ideas.  I think Walex Blissex might be necessary on the MC80 now.  And maybe Jan plus x-wings too for the CAP.

I'm glad that this thread is helping you too. I used to craft lists in secrecy because I didn't want to give away my strategies but that did't do me any good, so I'm trying another approach, because sharing is caring.

I'll be honest, I've only put the MC80H1 on the table for one game in the entire time I've owned it as I found myself drawn either to small ships or (briefly) to the Liberty. I've not much experience with it but I do know that ETs make it considerably more manoeuvrable (plus the double ET ram potential). Also, with Quad Battery Turrets being a thing, being able to go slow and ET along might be good if I face that threat.

Maybe a Slicer Quantum storm is the points saver I need to fit the other things in. I'll have a play and see what my options are.

I've got another version of a list to meet these goals running two AF2As for overlapping AA fire (plus potential for Ruthless Strategists).

If you'd like to post your version of the list when you're happy, I'd be interested to see it.

Edited July 9, 2017 by ManInTheBox

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

4 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

You're right about the squadrons, they won't win me the fighter... fight. The're there to limit the effectiveness of opponents' squads and to whittle down the health of Sloane squads (since they're likely to be low hull fighters).

Why do you feel RBD and Leading Shots are the weak points here? Leading shots always seemed to me to be a no-brainer on big dice pools with a load of reds and at least a blue. Those swingy reds are too unreliable and 4 points seems cheap for more reliability for when the big hits need to matter.
Boarding Engineers are definitely more situational. They seemed to be a force multiplier against big ships that can weather a lot of hull damage, but it's all untested at the moment.

Leia is insurance and flexibility, but not crucial to the build since MC80 doesn't need specific commands if it gets slicered.

ETs is definitely something i'd like in the list but couldn't fit. What's DBTs? I'm probably being thick but I can't think what you mean! 

Lets say this this way. I've tested vs squadrons at least 25 times. I think your group is great. I'm just letting you that if the squadron player plays correctly this is the expected result in numbers: I expect it to take really only 1.2 turns to make your fighters dead or useless not 2. I'm being generous. You will lose all 6 which is -80 points in trade usually for one B wing. +15. After that if he goes for easy targets you should lose 2 hhs. Though you probably will keep the big potato. So -50x2. You'll start that match up down -165 points. But you'll get time to use the big potato to try and compensate that. And your hhs do damage too. I like that. 

 

Imo Rbd never changed games for me on close games. ET did. LS imo didn't help with being able to really hone in on better damage + accs in practice. Though in theory it's supposedly good. I've never gotten good value from them. Quad battery turrets is great for big potato. 

 

I shoulda said pickle. 

[ManInTheBox 618]

17 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Lets say this this way. I've tested vs squadrons at least 25 times. I think your group is great. I'm just letting you that if the squadron player plays correctly this is the expected result in numbers: I expect it to take really only 1.2 turns to make your fighters dead or useless not 2. I'm being generous. You will lose all 6 which is -80 points in trade usually for one B wing. +15. After that if he goes for easy targets you should lose 2 hhs. Though you probably will keep the big potato. So -50x2. You'll start that match up down -165 points. But you'll get time to use the big potato to try and compensate that. And your hhs do damage too. I like that. 

 

Imo Rbd never changed games for me on close games. ET did. LS imo didn't help with being able to really hone in on better damage + accs in practice. Though in theory it's supposedly good. I've never gotten good value from them. Quad battery turrets is great for big potato. 

 

I shoulda said pickle. 

Oh, I don't doubt it'll get demolished by a dedicated AS 134 Fighter Group, I'm not contesting that at all. That, then a couple of Hammerheads seems pretty likely.

I'll try with and without RBD/LS/ET and see how my luck fares. I don't quite see the point of QBT on a big ship without LS to benefit from the extra blue, but I'll road test it if I get a chance. Cheers for the feedback.

[Tiberius the Killer 465]

So my list before had Ackbar and two CR90s.  But I have been trying to switch in the Hammerheads.

I also thought it would be fun to try shields to maximum with them, but maybe that's too much going on.  Also I need to find a way to fit in Walex.  Might be worth dropping leia's transport, but it's very nice to feed the big guy tokens, especially with Engine Techs.

ET'd 80 with Dodonna and Hammerheads 
Author: Tiberius the Killer

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400  

Commander: General Dodonna

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Leia Organa  ( 3  points) 
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points) 
= 23 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
-  General Dodonna  ( 20  points) 
-  Defiance  ( 5  points) 
-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points) 
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 169 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Quantum Storm  ( 1  points) 
-  Slicer Tools  ( 7  points) 
= 26 total ship cost

Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
-  Shields to Maximum!  ( 6  points) 
= 65 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
-  Task Force Antilles  ( 3  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 42 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
-  Task Force Antilles  ( 3  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 42 total ship cost

1 Shara Bey ( 17 points) 
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points) 

[ManInTheBox 618]

On 11/07/2017 at 6:12 AM, Tiberius the Killer said:

So my list before had Ackbar and two CR90s.  But I have been trying to switch in the Hammerheads.

I also thought it would be fun to try shields to maximum with them, but maybe that's too much going on.  Also I need to find a way to fit in Walex.  Might be worth dropping leia's transport, but it's very nice to feed the big guy tokens, especially with Engine Techs.

ET'd 80 with Dodonna and Hammerheads 
Author: Tiberius the Killer

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400  

Commander: General Dodonna

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Leia Organa  ( 3  points) 
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points) 
= 23 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
-  General Dodonna  ( 20  points) 
-  Defiance  ( 5  points) 
-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points) 
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 169 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Quantum Storm  ( 1  points) 
-  Slicer Tools  ( 7  points) 
= 26 total ship cost

Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
-  Shields to Maximum!  ( 6  points) 
= 65 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
-  Task Force Antilles  ( 3  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 42 total ship cost

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 points)
-  Task Force Antilles  ( 3  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 42 total ship cost

1 Shara Bey ( 17 points) 
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points) 

That looks like a very light fighter cover. Let me know how you get on with that. It doesn't look like it would survive a 5/6 squad alpha strike from FC supported interceptors with Howl.

I ran my list (as written above) for a test game and learned a few things. It certainly feels viable but I need to run it a few more times before I make any changes.

Unfortunately I forgot about the range restriction of TFA so couldn't use it initially. However, once I got them in range, it was a real life saver. We were playing it that I could move multiple damage from one attack, however that situation never actually arose. I only ever used it to shift single damage, and mostly from squadron attacks. It's almost the equivalent of giving Advanced Projectors. Two ships might take a damage each and shift it to each other, but instead of both of them ending up with damage on the front hull, they both end up with damage on the rear.

I lost the game but it wasn't a white-wash. I totally miscalculated the maneuver for my MC-80 on the second turn (due to not having flown large, slow ships for ages), bumped my own flotilla and ended up stuck with Avenger in my face, and sitting on the station.

The BARCAP worked reasonably well. Lasted about as well as @Blail Blerg predicted (about 2.5 turns) and in fact most of the enemy squads went down to AA fire from the MC80, which makes me think that a list with more AA might be a better squadron defence.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by ManInTheBox

[ManInTheBox 618]

This is a different list I've been working on that might be another way to achieve the same aims that I listed above:

 

Flak Frigates and Zs (400/400)
=============================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 46)
    + Garm Bel Iblis (25)
    + Lando Calrissian (4)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
    + Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 25)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
    + Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
    + Gallant Haven (8)
Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 6)
    + Boarding Engineers (2)
    + External Racks (3)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 6)
    + Boarding Engineers (2)
    + External Racks (3)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 7)
    + Toryn Farr (7)
2 x E-wing Squadron (15)
4 x Z-95 Headhunter Squadron (7)
Most Wanted
Hyperspace assault
Dangerous Territory

 

This list has got more of an emphasis on AA fire. It's got about the same ship damage output as the other build, but spread across a couple of ships (and without damage pushing upgrades like XI7).

The squads are just there as a reactive force to protect the Frigates. Gallant Haven should protect against alpha strikes and give the Zs a chance to return fire whilst the Frigates lay down Toryn supported 2 dice flak (Gunnery Teams are essential for this). The E-Wings can skulk behind the Frigates then jump in to snipe Mauler/Intel and force then to burn scatters or lay down a load of damage.

This list doesn't have a way to monkey with commands but I'm trying other solutions.

It also doesn't have a resilient flagship but with 2 AF2s but it also doesn't matter so much if I lose one.

Garm is in there as a test because this list could really benefit from being loaded with tokens (On HH for boarding troopers, on GR75 for squad pushing and on Frigates for everything). Perhaps I'd be better off with Dodonna for the points saving.

The Hammerheads are there for extra anti-ship punch. I don't expect to get a lot of mileage out of TFO titles but they're there as a cheap reroll on the one External Racks shot, even if I only get to use it on the second ship.

I've also been playing around with damage pushing and defensive officer upgrades on the AF2s but everything comes at a cost.

I could drop the GR75 activation to achieve that but the extra activation might really hurt me.

I could drop Gallant Haven and let enemy squads tear apart my Z95s but then face the flak crossfire.

Against a no/low squadron list, I'll be at a slight disadvantage due to the investment in AA tech, but most of it carries across to anti-ship, except the Z95s and partly Toryn.

Any thought are welcome, again.

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

I find Garm pretty satisfying in Wave1-2.  Dunno if the game has powercreeped him out now

 

[ManInTheBox 618]

14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I find Garm pretty satisfying in Wave1-2.  Dunno if the game has powercreeped him out now

 

Yeah, this is just a theory-craft. I've barely run Garm in my entire time playing.

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

I guess I should say I like your list in theory.  Its not bad.  got some goodies.  I think you could drop some upgrades on the AF-As, and I would at least go up to Awings, they do much better with Toryn.  Also, you might really need boosted comms somewhere.  Do you really need Es?  

 

[ManInTheBox 618]

38 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I guess I should say I like your list in theory.  Its not bad.  got some goodies.  I think you could drop some upgrades on the AF-As, and I would at least go up to Awings, they do much better with Toryn.  Also, you might really need boosted comms somewhere.  Do you really need Es?  

 

I'm not set on the squadron mix. I just took inspiration from someone else's list using Z95s as a barrier around a ship. Previously I've been imagining flying the CAP out to meet incoming squadrons, but realised that I needed the engagement to be within my own field of AA fire.

I picked them because they're cheap and only really need to make the enemy squads have to waste a turn shooting at them to give me time to start laying down AA fire. I've not actually ever put Z95s on the table yet.

A-Wings would obviously be better in this situation but that 16 point price hike is hard to fit. If I do a straight swap.

I don't really need the Es, per se, but thought they'd be worth holding behind my ship then flying in and trying to assassinate keystone squadrons after they alpha strike. Dropping them to As gives me the points to upgrade two Z95s to As, giving me a 4xA, 2xZ95 CAP without spending any extra points.

I'm not sure what I'd drop from the AF2s. GT are essential to being able to lay down AA fire.

RBDs feel essential to being able to stay alive long enough to do their job. They're a bit too fragile without a defensive retro in the current game. DTT is the only way to help those crappy red dice. That seems important to present a credible threat to ships. Without that I just don't feel like there's enough anti ship firepower.

I really wanted to fit Intel Offices on both to make damage stick (especially with Avenger being common now) but it's hard to find the points and contributes to points lost when they go pop.

Lando could go, but he's also Avenger/Demo insurance on the flagship. I could swap him for Boosted Comms, maybe on the GR75, which should be skulking behind the Frigates.

GH could go but it's there to help make an AA tarpit that enemy squads have to wade through. 

A swap to Dodonna would give me 5 points back.

 

In terms of flying tactics, I envisage this with the AF-As in a staggered broadside line (to prevent a traffic jam if the front gets blocked), not sure whether to lead with GH or the flagship. GR75 would be on the far side of the Frigates to boost AA fire. The HH could with be trailing, for follow up shots, or on a different attack vector for a hammer/anvil setup. Maybe use them as a fork to force bug hitters to choose between going for the Frigates and getting a side serving of black dice, or leaving my expensive ships alone to deal with the damage spike from the hammers.

[Vergilius 2,118]

I like the thought and effort you're putting into this.  You've clearly got a good methodical approach.

 

1. Quote

    

   1. BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) of vanilla squadrons (to avoid getting defence tokens stripped).
   2. A decent amount of AA/Flak
   3. A means of messing with carrier commands.
   4. A way of deterring and/or destroying the threat from the expected Avenger follow up shots. 
   5. A resilient Flagship with resistance to token stripping.
   6. A respectable amount of damage output to make strong tournament victories possible.
   7. At least one Hammerhead (because they're the new toys and I want to play with them).

    

   I'm just noticing the thread now, so I'm partly going back to the beginning, even if you've got a couple of lists you've posted since.

If you're playing Rebel squads, the A-wing is single-handedly the best defensive squad.  Counter damage really adds up.  If you've got Jan+X-wings like in your first list, you're already onto a different style of build.  I've tried it a few times as a defensive build, and for the points, I'd rather have A-wings.  I think the second squad you add if you want a stronger anti-squadron push after the A-wings is the YT2400.  The YT end up finishing off squads that were damaged by the A-wings during the squadron phase.  Though honestly, what you have to look at it is how much overall you want to invest in the squadron game.  I also still find Shara to be worth her points.  If it takes two Ties to kill her, she probably killed them back with her counter, which is traded points.  Since I'm already bringing light squadrons, any thinning of the herd is a win for me, even if I'm down a point on that exchange.   I'm very much leaning toward dropping Tycho from my Shara/Tycho/2-Awings that I've run for a long time.  The points saved can be spent well elsewhere, and as long as we've got a Sloan phase, Tycho becomes just a glorified A-wing.

 

Working good flak into your list is critical.  Only some of this can come from list design.  The rest has to come with learning how to fly with overlapping fields of flak fire.  Toyrn is hands-down the most important upgrade.  AF2-A:  it really wants to double-arc, so outside of Ackbar, I'd avoid GT.  What you really want is the side arc on the enemy's most dangerous ship and the front arc on the squads.  Interestingly enough, this can work out well in your positioning where you are largely pointed at the enemy, but just barely catch their ship in the upper front end of your side arc, while the rest of the front arc catches the squadrons.  This sets up the next shot, likely a double arc on your target ship of choice.  And honestly, if you've got your own squads, even a one round spray of two blue AS dice is enough to change the outcome of the squadron fight.   Assault Pelta:  It needs the right list, but it is a pretty useful support ship.  Nebulon-B Escort on a non-Yavaris:  something I've considered but have not done.   Combat Retrofits:  If you're already running Toryn, you hit at the percentage of the regular transport, but with much longer range.  The front anti-ship die is also fixable with Toryn, and CF in the right circumstance can finish off a ship or squad.  An underestimated unit.

[ManInTheBox 618]

Thanks @Vergilius. I really appreciate the breakdown of your thinking. That's a solid case for A-Wings and Shara. I don't get as much table time as I'd like so real world experience trumps theory-crafting. I hadn't even thought about YT2400, great suggestion.

I'm surprised about your assessment of Gunnery Teams on the AF2-A (I don't disagree, I'm just surprised). I would have thought that GT was essential to stop squads hiding in the strong arc of the AF2. I've not put an AF2 of any description on the table in a 400 point game since wave thor dropped so I'm definitely out of practice with them. Do you just feel that GT is too expensive for a non-Ackbar AF2? I could certainly do a lot with those extra 14 points.

I did consider a plain Escort (or Yavaris) Neb-b but doubted I could keep them alive long enough. An Assault Pelta is an interesting choice, I'll keep an open mind when list building. The Combat Retrofit is a good call. I've run them in Opening Salve abuse lists before but not really got the benefit from them in that setup.

 

Taking all the recent feedback into account, here's an updated version of the double AF2-A list that's stripped back to keep ships as lean and efficient as possible:

 

Flak Frigates and As (381/400)
=============================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 34)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 18)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
+ Gallant Haven (8)

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 6)
+ Boarding Engineers (2)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 6)
+ Boarding Engineers (2)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24 + 9)
+ Toryn Farr (7)
+ Bright Hope (2)

Shara Bey (17)
3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

Hyperspace assault
Most Wanted

Dangerous Territory

 

I've dropped Garm for Dodonna in this iteration just to see how far back I can pare the list. It leaves 19 points for additional upgrades and a bid. That could be:

• extra squads (a single YT2400 or a pair of Z95s),
• an Intel Officer or two (replacing Lando if going for the pair) to make the AF2 damage that much more dangerous,
• Ruthless Strategists, to really guarantee the squadron hurt,
• Veteran Gunners, to make a crucial shot count (because the more modification on red dice, the better),
• Ordnance experts in place of TFO on the Hammers, to make sure those External Racks lay down the hurt,
• Point Defence Reroute, to double down on the AA fire (maybe diminishing returns with Toryn already in the mix), but that's more points in the squad game,
• Quad Laser Turrets (No one ever takes these last two but I'm just trying to think outside of the box),
• Boosted Comms, although I feel like I'm trying to keep squads close to protect ships, and with only 4 I'm not sure it's worth it.
• Switch Dodonna back up to Garm if the tokens seem crucial to the build,
• Add in Walex to a ship to protect against token stripping.
   

I'm not sure whether it's worth putting in much of a bid for this list. 4 points seems to be a sweet spot where people who are not trying for first player will be above that and those who are will be below.

Edited July 17, 2017 by ManInTheBox

[Vergilius 2,118]

Toryn Farr doesn't boost the ship that she is on.  When I do the Combat Retrofit, I put a regular transport with BH/TF, and then a combat retrofit.  Or even more rarely, I find a way to sneak Toryn onto another ship, sometimes an MC80C or Pelta Assault.  If its got one black die, I'm willing to live with there not being a boost on the one blue.  98% of the time it is a regular transport.

Here's how I'd approach things:

First, I think Dodonna beats Garm in this list.  The AFs are token machines, but the HH can pocket their own token on turn-1.  So that's right.

Extra Squads:  You're still very point strapped, so without a ship revamp (which I'll talk about later, you're going to have to play as is)

Intel Officer:  Really expensive, and you don't lay down enough hurt unless you can set up double arcs on both Assault Frigates, and then you're probably doing enough by giving off damaging in small bursts.

Ruthless Strategists:  You don't have enough squadron hull.  You want them to last.

Veteran Gunners:  maybe.

OE on the Hammers instead of TFO:  deploy them speed-2, set CF on turn-1, bank a token.  Now you've got TFO for one reroll and the CF token for another.  That should be good enough.

PDR:  an obsolete upgrade at this point.

QLT:  maybe. What I hate is when they don't attack my ships, then it is wasted points.  Probably be very mean to Ties and Tie/i in a Sloan list, but has trouble with enough volume otherwise.

Boosted Comms: you're right, keep them close to your ships.  The goal is defense

Walex:  maybe.

I'm not sure Gallant Haven boosts 4 squads enough.  Maybe.  What you really want to make certain is that you've got reasonable ship killing power, fast enough.  Could the GH AF-2 get turned into an MC30?  The points are there, for sure.  Could it be turned into 2 smaller activations.  You'd have the makings of your own MSU and with overlapping fields of AS fire, you'd be good.  The HH will do great damage, IF they get to the target.  It is worth considering if you could run one torpedo and one scout, and follow-up with the scout.  Put Boarding Engineers just on the second one.  There are a lot of ways to do this, but bid will help you last/first, and extra activations can do a lot to keep HH alive.  From there, it is a matter of getting a rhythm for playing an MSU, which is really where you're headed with this.

[ManInTheBox 618]

Thanks @Vergilius, There's a lot there to think about.

I did know that Toryn doesn't help her own ship but forgot when I just did the simple upgrade for the ship she's on.

I've been playing MSU a lot over the last couple of waves and got a little tired of it. That's why my first crack at a list to achieve the aims I've set out included the MC80 Assault. I'd never put this variant on the table, ever (and only the Command variant once) so I wanted to try a bigger ship playstyle. I appreciate that it's harder to achieve overlapping AA with fewer ships and that MSU might be a better way to go if that's the priority from my original list that I want to focus on to be most effective. 

The rest of the points and feedback are really helpful. I'll take them away to digest and come back once I've had a chance to let the ideas percolate.

[ManInTheBox 618]

This has been on the back burner for a bit but I've got time to come back to Armada. Since I made the original list, it's become clear that BTAvenger is the real threat in the current wave, less so than Sloane. I'm having to think about how best to fight that too, but I think I might split the evolution of my original pickle build off into a separate thread as it's trying to achieve slightly different things.

@Vergilius, I've had a play with the double frigate list according to your recommendations and have come up with a couple of options. 

LIST 1: Flak Frigate, Admo, Salvation(Esc) & As (400/400)

========================================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 34)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 22)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ Admonition (8)

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 + 12)
+ Quad Battery Turrets (5)
+ Salvation (7)

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 13)
+ Boarding Troopers (3)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
+ Garel's Honor (4)

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9)
+ Toryn Farr (7)
+ Bright Hope (2)

Shara Bey (17)
3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

Most Wanted
Dangerous Territory

Hyperspace assault

 

5 Activations, 7 deployments. No bid.
This version of the list has added way more ship firepower. Admo replaces GH, Salvation replaces one Hammerhead (and eats the bid) on an Escort chassis to add to AA crossfire. The remaining HH is changed to a Scout Garel's Honour to act as a crit missile and maybe pop Boarding Troopers next turn if I give the opponent enough bad choices about what to shoot at (since I won't have a bid to go first). Slaved Turrets will hurt AA fire but there's enough of a crossfire already from the AF2, Neb and GR-75 (since Admo will probably be swinging round a flank).

Solar Corona might be a better objective for survivability but it doesn't give any points and doesn't force the opponent to split his forces, so I'm not sure.

 

LIST 2: Flak Frigate, Admo, & As (396/400)
=================================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 39)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Quad Laser Turrets (5)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 22)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ Admonition (8)

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 9)
+ Boarding Engineers (2)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 4)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9)
+ Toryn Farr (7)
+ Bright Hope (2)

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24)

Shara Bey (17)
3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

Hyperspace assault
Dangerous Territory

Most Wanted

 

6 Activations, 8 Deployments, 4 point bid.
In this version, the AF2 and Admo stay the same but the Hammerheads have been tweaked as per your suggestions: one Torp and one scout (with Slaved Turrets again). There's a naked Cotmbat GR-75 for extra flak and squadron pushing (plus CF plink damage). I could drop this for a bigger bid and to tool up the other ships a little more. I'm not convinced about my ability to fly the AF2 well enough to not need Gunnery Teams (for same arc battery and AA fire), at least not without a load of practice. 

I think I'm happy enough taking these to the Q3 kit tournament in a couple of weeks. Which would you recommend?

Edited July 31, 2017 by ManInTheBox

[Vergilius 2,118]

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

This has been on the back burner for a bit but I've got time to come back to Armada. Since I made the original list, it's become clear that BTAvenger is the real threat in the current wave, less so than Sloane. I'm having to think about how best to fight that too, but I think I might split the evolution of my original pickle build off into a separate thread as it's trying to achieve slightly different things.

@Vergilius, I've had a play with the double frigate list according to your recommendations and have come up with a couple of options. 

LIST 1: Flak Frigate, Admo, Salvation(Esc) & As (400/400)

========================================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 34)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 22)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ Admonition (8)

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 + 12)
+ Quad Battery Turrets (5)
+ Salvation (7)

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 13)
+ Boarding Troopers (3)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
+ Garel's Honor (4)

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9)
+ Toryn Farr (7)
+ Bright Hope (2)

Shara Bey (17)
3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

Most Wanted
Dangerous Territory

Hyperspace assault

 

5 Activations, 7 deployments. No bid.
This version of the list has added way more ship firepower. Admo replaces GH, Salvation replaces one Hammerhead (and eats the bid) on an Escort chassis to add to AA crossfire. The remaining HH is changed to a Scout Garel's Honour to act as a crit missile and maybe pop Boarding Troopers next turn if I give the opponent enough bad choices about what to shoot at (since I won't have a bid to go first). Slaved Turrets will hurt AA fire but there's enough of a crossfire already from the AF2, Neb and GR-75 (since Admo will probably be swinging round a flank).

Solar Corona might be a better objective for survivability but it doesn't give any points and doesn't force the opponent to split his forces, so I'm not sure.

Garel's Honor will work best with the bid, and boarding engineers is what you want with it.  It only has a squadron value of one, so troopers doesn't flip many defense tokens.  Slaved Turrets is possibly what you can kill to save points.  You get a better front arc off of it usually, but at the expense of anti-squadron shots.   The rest is playable.

RBD on the Admo is a luxury.  You can keep it, but if you neeed something else, that's ok.

[Vergilius 2,118]

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

LIST 2: Flak Frigate, Admo, & As (396/400)
=================================
Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 39)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Quad Laser Turrets (5)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

 

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 22)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ Admonition (8)

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 9)
+ Boarding Engineers (2)
+ Slaved Turrets (6)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 4)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Task Force Organa (1)

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9)
+ Toryn Farr (7)
+ Bright Hope (2)

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24)

Shara Bey (17)
3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

Hyperspace assault
Dangerous Territory

Most Wanted

 

6 Activations, 8 Deployments, 4 point bid.
In this version, the AF2 and Admo stay the same but the Hammerheads have been tweaked as per your suggestions: one Torp and one scout (with Slaved Turrets again). There's a naked Cotmbat GR-75 for extra flak and squadron pushing (plus CF plink damage). I could drop this for a bigger bid and to tool up the other ships a little more. I'm not convinced about my ability to fly the AF2 well enough to not need Gunnery Teams (for same arc battery and AA fire), at least not without a load of practice. 

I think I'm happy enough taking these to the Q3 kit tournament in a couple of weeks. Which would you recommend?

I like list 2 better as-is.  I'd get some games in with it to see how if you get comfortable flying it.  Learn its strengths and weaknesses, and then tweak from there.

[ManInTheBox 618]

On 31/07/2017 at 6:20 PM, Vergilius said:

I like list 2 better as-is.  I'd get some games in with it to see how if you get comfortable flying it.  Learn its strengths and weaknesses, and then tweak from there.

After a very busy time with almost no Armada, I managed to get one practice game in with a slightly modified version of the fleet before taking it to a Q3 tournament. I didn't actually fight any Sloane lists (and only fought one BTAvenger, but did really well with the fleet and placed third (after playing the last game on the top table and losing 7-4 (there were only 7 people playing but there was a good vase level of skill).

Although it's possible to fluke a decent position, what I'm most pleased about was I went into every game with a plan of what I wanted to achieve, stuck to my guns and pulled it off. In the past I've had a lot of problems anticipating the fight and getting my fleet engage simultaneously. This time I managed to get that right.

First game was against almost a mirror match but with a heavy Rebel mixed bomber fleet with Sato. We played my Solar Corona (flipped for initiative) with my opponent setting up on the corner facing the middle. I realised that I'd be eaten alive by the bombers if I allowed him to delay engagement so I set the corona to the side he was nearest to and andled my fleet towards the edge of the board to make a shallow sweep round and hit him as soon as possible, with the corona behind me, to destroy his carriers and fly away at top speed before the bombers could do any damage. Th eplan worked like a charm and he had to do some emergency repositioning whilst I was throwing dice on turn 2. His fleet was boxed in so I blasted through and took minimal casualties. 7-4 win. The overlapping AA fire was very destructive and the one-two punch with the different HH setups was really effective.

Second game was against a Motti GT-ISD Avenger, Demo, Raider and Gozanti list. We played my Most Wanted (flipped again for initiative) and I chose Bright Hope and his ISD. We both set up opposite each other on one side of the board (with the obstacles down the middle). I set up a fork, with my broadsiders and flotillas heading towards the centre of the board and the hammerheads hooking round towards the edge of the board to force the ISD to choose a group to tuen towards. The first HH was destroyed by the ISD and Gladiator combo before firing but the second one was able to unload 6 dice into the ISD (2R, 1B, +1R for slaved turrets, +1B for CF and +1B for Most Wanted). At the same time, Admo double arced at close range in the front arc and the AF2 was just in range. The extra dice from all ships for Most Wanted and the boarding Engineers flipping Shield Capacitor failure (after choosing it as acrit the first time) really did the ISD in. All that was left at the end was his Demo and one squad of defenders. That was a 9-2 win with he double points from Most Wanted.

Last game on the top table was against a Motti BTAvenger list with Demo, two flotillas and a Raider, plus TIES. we played his Minefields (his Initiative and choice to go second). he set up a picket line that I would have to cross or funnel out of one end. I tied my brain up in knots trying to force him to mis-deploy by using early ships as red herrings. It worked reasonably well and I managed to have my ships in a position to jump the barrier and reconvene the other side for attack formation, whilst his ISD was out of position and had to swing round. One of my flotillas hit a mine, as I couldn't position it well enough to throw him off the scent and still hook round to jump the barrier. My other ships got out ok but the AF2 ended up bounced back to a simultaneous debrit hit AND a mine after his raider hooked round and blocked its intended landing position. It ecentually died to a shot from Demo.

In the mean time, I managed to pin Avenger, with the damaged flotilla and then the HH whilst Admo was double arcing the side. A crit that stopped Avenger from targeting more than one ship per round really helped. ALthough I laid down a lot of damage, my ships dropped like flies and at one point I had no points on the board and only Admo left alive with the ISD running away and repairing. Then my opponent made a mistake with activation order, pinned his own ISD with his raider and allowed Admo to catch up deliver the final blow to the ISD. Admo then finished the raider whilst the flotillas ended up on one hull left each. In the final shot, I had the double arc I needed to kill Demo (which had hooked round to finish me off) but fell one point short on the rolls, so it was a 7-4 loss, from a game that looked like I was going to be tabled with no points. I was lucky with some errors of judgement from my opponent but everything did pretty much what I planned for it and engaged when I anticipated, so this has been a real step forward for me.

Here's the slightly modified list:

 

Flak Frigate, Admo, & As (400/400)

=================================

Assault Frigate Mk.II A (81 + 41)

+ General Dodonna (20)

+ Lando Calrissian (4)

+ Gunnery Team (7)

+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)

+ Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)

 

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 22)

+ Ordnance Experts (4)

+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)

+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)

+ Admonition (8)

 

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 9)

+ Boarding Engineers (2)

+ Slaved Turrets (6)

+ Task Force Organa (1)

 

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36 + 4)

+ External Racks (3)

+ Task Force Organa (1)

 

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 9)

+ Toryn Farr (7)

+ Bright Hope (2)

 

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24 + 2)

+ Jamming Field (2)

 

Shara Bey (17)

3 x A-wing Squadron (11)

 

Most Wanted

Solar Corona

Hyperspace assault

I caved and put GT on the AF2 because I wasn't confident of being able to pilot it to be able to get ship and squad shots. It wasn't a game changer due to the way the squad battle splayed out but did help out a few time.

RBD was great on both the AF2 and MC-30. I never wanted for ECMs in the games I played. It neve made the difference between surviving or dying on the AF2, but almost did in the last game and absolutely did on Admo.

Jamming Field on the Combat GR-75 did some really good work. It earned its place.

I pulled Quad Laser Turrets from the AF2 to help finance the other changes. I didn't miss it in the games I played as it usually wasn't in the thick of the squad fight.

Thanks again to everyone for feedback. I've got a fleet that I'm happy to practice with and take to more tournaments until the next wave shakes everything up again.

[BrobaFett 4,209]

Grats on the strong tourney!!!

Edited August 22, 2017 by BrobaFett

[ManInTheBox 618]

4 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

Grats on the strong tourney!!!

Thanks!

[Englishpete 1,379]

I'm not sure if you're still tinkering or looking for an MC80 fleet anymore, but I've been enjoying this. It can take a beating and hand one out. I do like your latest list from above as well. (The Biggs ball is new, replacing A-wings which were a bit squishy)

 

Mon Cal 4th Fleet
Author: Englishpete

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

 

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
-  Admiral Ackbar  ( 38  points)
-  Defiance  ( 5  points)
-  Raymus Antilles  ( 7  points)
-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points)
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points)
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 194 total ship cost

 

MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)
-  Admonition  ( 8  points)
-  Walex Blissex  ( 5  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points)
= 103 total ship cost

 

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Leia Organa  ( 3  points)
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points)
= 23 total ship cost

 

1 Corran Horn ( 22 points)
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points)
3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points)