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Cyphers and Masks Spy book announced!

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1 hour ago, Concise Locket said:

Adventure books tend to be loss-leaders unless you go the Paizo route of a subscription service. FFG has been pretty smart about adding a decent amount of sourcebook style material to adventure books - like the multi-page write-up of Ord Mantell in "Mask of the Pirate Queen" - but they're definitely the lowest selling items since they're geared toward GMs. "Dawn of Rebellion" sold out at my game store so it's possible that more era books are forthcoming but that's limited to post-RotJ to pre-TFA and maaaaaybe The Clone Wars (though combining the height of the Jedi with Force & Destiny, which focuses on minor Force users rediscovering lost knowledge, would be tricky.

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I think they may expand things, they've brought in enough material from outside the Disney canon (the Tython writeup in the F&D CRB and NoP being a good example) that they could get away with going back in history at the very least. Certainly if they pay any attention to forum discussion they'd be fools not to capitalise on the demand for an Old Republic book, though they'll likely go via the Clone Wars.

As for the point on how F&D focuses on minor Force users, it ties into something I've been mulling over, namely what if they follow the trend of some other RPGs and introduce Prestige specialisations, ones requiring so much XP/Contribution Rank/Morality, and so on. That could allow for games that have been running for a long time with PCs who want to be on a par with Prequel-era characters, or players who want to start off at a high level with the ability to match. Then again, I may be completely wrong, but it's my theory.

Anyway, that's my off-topic aside over. Now where the heck is this book?

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1 hour ago, Concise Locket said:

It would be nice but it's hard to monetize that. WotC gave up the SW license early because it wasn't pulling in enough money for the company.

Bear in mind that WotC/Hasbro was comparing SW RPG sales/income to that of Dungeons & Dragons, which prior to the onset of 4th edition was the 800 lbs. gorilla in terms of RPG properties and reigned pretty much unchallenged in leading the RPG market (especially during the d20 boom of the early aughts) until Paizo decided to stick with 3.5 and create Pathfinder.

Any RPG line's sales is going to look anemic when compared to D&D no matter how popular the franchise the RPGs is based upon is.

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On 6/27/2018 at 12:46 PM, ColonelCommissar said:

I think they may expand things, they've brought in enough material from outside the Disney canon (the Tython writeup in the F&D CRB and NoP being a good example) that they could get away with going back in history at the very least. Certainly if they pay any attention to forum discussion they'd be fools not to capitalise on the demand for an Old Republic book, though they'll likely go via the Clone Wars.

As for the point on how F&D focuses on minor Force users, it ties into something I've been mulling over, namely what if they follow the trend of some other RPGs and introduce Prestige specialisations, ones requiring so much XP/Contribution Rank/Morality, and so on. That could allow for games that have been running for a long time with PCs who want to be on a par with Prequel-era characters, or players who want to start off at a high level with the ability to match. Then again, I may be completely wrong, but it's my theory.

Anyway, that's my off-topic aside over. Now where the heck is this book?

Was Force and Destiny written before or after the sale to Disney? I sense that, if it had been after, that Tython stuff may have gotten the axe. 

Since FFG is essentially writing stuff that affects, or is affected by, the new canon I suspect that they don't have as much freedom we might wish they did. Bothans were scrubbed from the German Age of Rebellion book.

I don't see "prestige" careers becoming a thing. F&D sort of cheated with Knight Level play - which would be a workaround for the Clone Wars - but all that means is starting with more XP. Prestige classes work for OGL games because that system has such a sharp power curve. Shoehorning it into FFG/Gensys and its shallow power curve wouldn't make a lot of sense. 

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2 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

Was Force and Destiny written before or after the sale to Disney? I sense that, if it had been after, that Tython stuff may have gotten the axe. 

Since FFG is essentially writing stuff that affects, or is affected by, the new canon I suspect that they don't have as much freedom we might wish they did. Bothans were scrubbed from the German Age of Rebellion book.

I don't see "prestige" careers becoming a thing. F&D sort of cheated with Knight Level play - which would be a workaround for the Clone Wars - but all that means is starting with more XP. Prestige classes work for OGL games because that system has such a sharp power curve. Shoehorning it into FFG/Gensys and its shallow power curve wouldn't make a lot of sense. 

It’s not just Tython there is Legends material suffused through the art and materials. You can see Mara Jade and other content. FFG is definitely leaning into the canon material, but they aren’t actively opposed to Legends where it makes sense. Disney’s just not dictating that level of exactitude. 

I think adding signature classes to the careers would be a nice way to add paragon play. Similar to signature abilities you could only apply this to the characters starting career once certain conditions are met. I’d love to see this paired with region books that reflect the career. For example an explorer might find theirs in the book referencing the Chiss Ascendency. This helps flesh out those areas and ensure higher sales. 

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2 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

Was Force and Destiny written before or after the sale to Disney? I sense that, if it had been after, that Tython stuff may have gotten the axe. 

Since FFG is essentially writing stuff that affects, or is affected by, the new canon I suspect that they don't have as much freedom we might wish they did. Bothans were scrubbed from the German Age of Rebellion book.

I don't see "prestige" careers becoming a thing. F&D sort of cheated with Knight Level play - which would be a workaround for the Clone Wars - but all that means is starting with more XP. Prestige classes work for OGL games because that system has such a sharp power curve. Shoehorning it into FFG/Gensys and its shallow power curve wouldn't make a lot of sense. 

Force and Destiny was published 30 JUL 2015, well after Disney bought Lucasfilm. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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4 hours ago, Khazadune said:

It’s not just Tython there is Legends material suffused through the art and materials. You can see Mara Jade and other content.

Another example: Knights of Fate - just a week old - features Kyle Katarn in the artwork. (p 90)

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7 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Another example: Knights of Fate - just a week old - features Kyle Katarn in the artwork. (p 90)

Maybe Kyle Katarn, and more importantly his beard, will be canon once more. Would be nice to have him back and intimidating bar keepers once more.

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Point of order: unless these characters are named in the text, which they aren't, its just a piece of artwork that looks like Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, etc. We interpret as such, and we may be intended to interpret as such, but one could also say "that's just a redheaded force using woman in black who looks a lot like Mara Jade," etc. This would also be a valid interpretation. I believe the devs are using the art to imply these character's inclusion as a means of fanservice without actually staking out an explicit position on their existence that would have to be agreed to as "official" by the Mouse.

Edited by Vondy

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12 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Point of order: unless these characters are named in the text, which they aren't, its just a piece of artwork that looks like Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, etc. We interpret as such, and we may be intended to interpret as such, but one could also say "that's just a redheaded force using woman in black who looks a lot like Mara Jade," etc. This would also be a valid interpretation. I believe the devs are using the art to imply these character's inclusion as a means of fanservice without actually staking out an explicit position on their existence that would have to be agreed to as "official" by the Mouse.

There are weapon write ups, ships, speeders, planet details, race histories etc. That are completely invented or rehashed from Legends. This is not a one off, or merely limited to art. Take for example the Evita style story of the Drabatan* (*I think it’s them) in Dawn of Rebellion that @KRKappel wrote for the book. It’s a genius insertion and has no cannon reference. The Tognath Egg Mates are Legends details as well. 

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2 hours ago, Khazadune said:

There are weapon write ups, ships, speeders, planet details, race histories etc. That are completely invented or rehashed from Legends. This is not a one off, or merely limited to art. Take for example the Evita style story of the Drabatan* (*I think it’s them) in Dawn of Rebellion that @KRKappel wrote for the book. It’s a genius insertion and has no cannon reference. The Tognath Egg Mates are Legends details as well. 

Yes. You are correct. There are. I don't dispute a word you say. However, that is a broader issue thanwhat I commented on. My comments were solely restricted to the interpretive barriers encountered when art is unaccompanied by text and stats. A portrait that looks like Character X is not definitive proof that said character had undergone canonization. For instance, one could look at the black clad redheaded force user in the F&D core rulebook and say "that's Mara Jade" or "that just looks like Mara Jade" and be right either way. The picture itself is not definitive. Its up to the reader / viewer to reach a largely subjective conclusion. That was the sum total of my point. Nothing more.  

 

 

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On 6/28/2018 at 4:49 PM, Khazadune said:

It’s not just Tython there is Legends material suffused through the art and materials. You can see Mara Jade and other content. FFG is definitely leaning into the canon material, but they aren’t actively opposed to Legends where it makes sense. Disney’s just not dictating that level of exactitude. 

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Point of order: unless these characters are named in the text, which they aren't, its just a piece of artwork that looks like Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, etc. We interpret as such, and we may be intended to interpret as such, but one could also say "that's just a redheaded force using woman in black who looks a lot like Mara Jade," etc. This would also be a valid interpretation. I believe the devs are using the art to imply these character's inclusion as a means of fanservice without actually staking out an explicit position on their existence that would have to be agreed to as "official" by the Mouse.

 

 

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

Yes. You are correct. There are. I don't dispute a word you say. However, that is a broader issue thanwhat I commented on. My comments were solely restricted to the interpretive barriers encountered when art is unaccompanied by text and stats. A portrait that looks like Character X is not definitive proof that said character had undergone canonization. For instance, one could look at the black clad redheaded force user in the F&D core rulebook and say "that's Mara Jade" or "that just looks like Mara Jade" and be right either way. The picture itself is not definitive. Its up to the reader / viewer to reach a largely subjective conclusion. That was the sum total of my point. Nothing more.  

 

 

You then miss the point in the initial discussion. No one argued that Mara Jade’e likeness meant she was being considered canon, but rather that the RPG line includes non-canon materials. Sometimes this is art, sometimes it is descriptions and write ups. The original poster had suggested that the only content being portrayed was canon material - this is what we were discussing. 

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2 hours ago, Khazadune said:

You then miss the point in the initial discussion.  

I didn't miss the point of the initial discussion because I wasn't responding to the initial poster and never claimed to be.

2 hours ago, Khazadune said:

 No one argued that Mara Jade’e likeness meant she was being considered canon, but rather that the RPG line includes non-canon materials. 

You want to split hairs and nitpick that I said "canon" off while ignoring the essential epistemological point, be my guest. 

I'll help you out and be more expansive: whether its Canon, Legends, or EU is utterly irrelevant to the essential point I was making.

I was responding to this:

22 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Another example: Knights of Fate - just a week old - features Kyle Katarn in the artwork. (p 90)

And this:

On 6/28/2018 at 1:49 PM, Khazadune said:

It’s not just Tython there is Legends material suffused through the art and materials. You can see Mara Jade and other content....

And now this:

Is that Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade or just people who look like them?

Those illustrations, as presented, are not definitive and leave the existence of those characters open to individual interpretation. 

And that is the point you are so gleefully deflecting when you now say:

2 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Sometimes this is art, sometimes it is descriptions and write ups.

Descriptions and write-ups are definitive, but sans captions, art is open to interpretation.

Edited by Vondy

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12 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I didn't miss the point of the initial discussion because I wasn't responding to the initial poster and never claimed to be.

You want to split hairs and nitpick that I said "canon" off while ignoring the essential epistemological point, be my guest. 

I'll help you out and be more expansive: whether its Canon, Legends, or EU is utterly irrelevant to the essential point I was making.

I was responding to this:

And this:

And now this:

Is that Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade or just people who look like them?

Those illustrations, as presented, are not definitive and leave the existence of those characters open to individual interpretation. 

And that is the point you are so gleefully deflecting when you now say:

Descriptions and write-ups are definitive, but sans captions, art is open to interpretation.

I never disputed that art is interpretative. That’s obvious. But you entered into an existing dialogue and chose to select a piece of that discussion without understanding or willfully neglecting the context. Context is important. 

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1 hour ago, AceSolo5 said:

I was told it was going to be released on the 31st August by Wayland Games in the UK.

They also said Fully Operational was going to be released at end of June (so were wrong), but still haven't had any copies in yet anyway !

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On 6/28/2018 at 10:10 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Force and Destiny was published 30 JUL 2015, well after Disney bought Lucasfilm. 

From quotes from the order66 podcast from the devs I believe however that F&D was the first core written, but underwent the longest playtesting, so it was likely very different originally, but still that would place it as being done before the sale.  

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2 minutes ago, syrath said:

From quotes from the order66 podcast from the devs I believe however that F&D was the first core written, but underwent the longest playtesting, so it was likely very different originally, but still that would place it as being done before the sale.  

I don't think it went through three years of play-testing, or even two and a half years. Remember, Disney bought Lucasfilm back in mid-late 2012. F&D was re;lases mid 2015

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Cant remember the episode but Im sure it was Sam Stewart who said it, although of course that still means it was the last core to actually get approved by Lucasfilm regardless the books are about 1 year from going from approval to being in our hands. Similarly they were quoted as saying (Max Brooke this time) that the Bounty Hunter signature ability was the first written and last released, Im fairly sure none of us are aware of the amount of time that goes into producing these, between play testing and then getting a proof to print (the last of these often being quoted as being a year or more). Look at the time from announcement to release which is often 6 months or more. Note also that F&D beta was released at Gencon 2014 and that Sterling Hershey was quoted as saying he was writing for it in 2012 and likely was covered by NDA before that.

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