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Is Stronghold worth it?

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2 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

To me, stronghold is there to allow itty bitty hulled squadrons to tank an alpha. 

Which is fine. Which also means it has limited value. The question is originally "is it worth it"

Sure you can use it to survive an alpha but consider where this means your squadrons even are. If they stay in stronghold range they aren't doing anything, and if you wait and encroach so that you can in turn alpha out from under the bubble, your Quasar is now likely in a precarious position on the board. Keeping all this in mind, it might take a particularly specific build to leverage this title well. Perhaps combined with relay and the Vector title on a goz? Or perhaps flanked by Vics? I don't know.

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With Gallant Haven I find it a trap to keep squadrons in range all game.

Early on I use it to position squadrons far ahead and disencourage alpha strikes, only putting gallant haven at risk, which then flanks turn 3/4. Normally you need several ships to disencourage by high anti-squad firepower, with gallant haven only one, while the rest can stay back and do their thing. This alone is almost worth the 8 points.

Later in turn 4/5 the squadrons on 1 health can move towards gallant haven to deny points (or Haven back to them). In CC, this is doubly important to get veteran status. 

Stronghold should be good in CC for the second reason. The first is not so important since you have the speed and don't care about a forward position.

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2 minutes ago, Hastatior said:

Which is fine. Which also means it has limited value. The question is originally "is it worth it"

Sure you can use it to survive an alpha but consider where this means your squadrons even are. If they stay in stronghold range they aren't doing anything, and if you wait and encroach so that you can in turn alpha out from under the bubble, your Quasar is now likely in a precarious position on the board. Keeping all this in mind, it might take a particularly specific build to leverage this title well. Perhaps combined with relay and the Vector title on a goz? Or perhaps flanked by Vics? I don't know.

I think it will be the way to play it. Run a VSD or even your ISD nearby it.

It also is important to remember there is now a ship that tosses red AA.  Being able to screen those Ties for that turn might just be worth it to have a full strength alpha the next turn instead of having possible a couple dinged up fighters. 

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It is pretty strange how I can have my Gladiator escort carriers in range to support their squadrons without being constantly shot at despite needing to stay at relatively close range to support their fighters. Often at close range to my fighters range in order to ensure they get to add AA dice to opposing squadrons. But I also use Lambdas to ensure I can activate fighters that are the most useful.

 

In the game I just played Gallant Haven could not do much to support its fighters since I obviously attacked everything else BUT Gallant Haven with them... ;)

 

The drawback which is a pretty big one are the distance one you need to stay at Gallant Haven to receive its bonus... and pretty easy to stay outside that and if Gallant Haven wants to get that close to my ISD then I will just be happy... ;)

 

Gallant Haven is still a great Title mind you... if and when you can capitalize on it... just like Stronghold will be. 

 

The trick is to be able to capitalize on it and no ship is played in a vacuum so it is about strategy, positioning and supporting your assets properly. 

Edited by jorgen_cab

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3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm pretty sure I subconsciously dismissed it as the rantings of a Madman and went back to planning my Nose-Punch-Esque 3.0 Quasar lists, now that Rhymer himself stopped the usual Nose-Punch's utility :D

The only difference between Stronghold and the Jamming Field is that Stronghold makes you immune to 1-die Ship-Based Anti-Squadron...

...  Which would probably not be shooting at you, but shooting at the Quasar anyway...

But who knows. :)

My point about Squall was thinking: 

1)If you are using TIE Interceptors, fighters, advanced, bombers, or any other speed 4+ squads and you need the additional repositioning consistently, I feel like you are beefing up bad play more than emphasizing good. A personal feeling not backed up by data

2) Using Squall to throw squads hard out in front of your ships is essentially writing off those squads. Sure, stupidly far Alpha range on 3 squads is nice. You most likely don't get them back. 

3) Unengaged to unengaged - no Mauler. No inserting intel. No taking advantage of intel. 

4) Pushing YVs or Firesprays? Sure. Increase their threat range. A good bit too niche use for me. 

I do do like the option with Jendon and Saber that Squall provides though. A LOT. Also with Lambdas and strategic

 

A lot of this stems from my experience with YT-1300s, Bwings, and FCTs. They are a neat corner case, but I consistently get B-wings into the fight in good order without FCTs. So I'm not feeling the need for Squall. 

Edited by Church14

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Yep, Nose punch certainly threw Rhymer and a couple of Bombers out there to be lost.

 

But when they ewere hitting a target at speed 0, they always made their points back.

I certainly appreciate risk/reward. But only moving 3 is my issue. A turn 1 Flight Controller, EHB, Hondo/VetCap powered Alpha from a QF sounds fun though. 

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@UndeadguySince I can only read you through others quotes Ill make an exception this time for you, because your comment is truly infuriating. Well, your comment brings exactly what you need (no more, not less) to make your point. Conveniently avoiding the extra hull, in example. And making a full argument around the distance. If you care to measure you will see by yourself, before you comment up and put yourself in shame, that is perfectly possible, and not just by milimiters, to keep stronghold at long distance of a ship while protecting fighters at distacne 1 of that same ship.

And you keep putting me into the fire line with the "attack to players" cry wich is exactly what are you doing now with the difference that you actually mean it as part of your argument to somehow, make my point less valid. Well let me tell you that sucks. I'm just making my point, if you dont like it, dont read it.


I blocked you for something I will have to remember that to my self next time.

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9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I certainly appreciate risk/reward. But only moving 3 is my issue. A turn 1 Flight Controller, EHB, Hondo/VetCap powered Alpha from a QF sounds fun though. 

I'm not bothering with fighters...  Its still the only way to hit strike a ship with its G-7 Pants Down :D

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Church14 said:

My point about Squall was thinking: 

1)If you are using TIE Interceptors, fighters, advanced, bombers, or any other speed 4+ squads and you need the additional repositioning consistently, I feel like you are beefing up bad play more than emphasizing good. A personal feeling not backed up by data

2) Using Squall to throw squads hard out in front of your ships is essentially writing off those squads. Sure, stupidly far Alpha range on 3 squads is nice. You most likely don't get them back. 

3) Unengaged to unengaged - no Mauler. No inserting intel. No taking advantage of intel. 

4) Pushing YVs or Firesprays? Sure. Increase their threat range. A good bit too niche use for me. 

I do do like the option with Jendon and Saber that Squall provides though. A LOT. Also with Lambdas and strategic

 

A lot of this stems from my experience with YT-1300s, Bwings, and FCTs. They are a neat corner case, but I consistently get B-wings into the fight in good order without FCTs. So I'm not feeling the need for Squall. 

I am planning on using the Squall title on a Quasar II, with Kallas, Flight Controllers, Ruthless Strategists, and Boosted Comms. The title will move my 3 YV-666 to support the 4 TIE defenders/Zertik Strom out front and also to help take the RS damage. The red die AA + Kallas if an ace is around, is gonna be brutal with RS at long range.

Edited by itzSteve

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56 minutes ago, xerpo said:

@UndeadguySince I can only read you through others quotes Ill make an exception this time for you, because your comment is truly infuriating. Well, your comment brings exactly what you need (no more, not less) to make your point. Conveniently avoiding the extra hull, in example. And making a full argument around the distance. If you care to measure you will see by yourself, before you comment up and put yourself in shame, that is perfectly possible, and not just by milimiters, to keep stronghold at long distance of a ship while protecting fighters at distacne 1 of that same ship.

And you keep putting me into the fire line with the "attack to players" cry wich is exactly what are you doing now with the difference that you actually mean it as part of your argument to somehow, make my point less valid. Well let me tell you that sucks. I'm just making my point, if you dont like it, dont read it.


I blocked you for something I will have to remember that to my self next time.

The Quasar and AF have the same hull which is 6 so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

You are correct about the distance for once. You can keep Stronghold at long (but not by much) and keep your squads at distance 2 of Stronghold and at distance 1 of an enemy ship. That will be quite useful now that I measured it myself, but the fact remains that the Quasar does not want to be getting into a fight. It's not an AF nor GH, and cannot sustain continued fire. By putting it so close to medium range, you're just begging your opponent to close the game. Guess we will see how effective the ship is.

And you do attack players and you say they have no skill, that there are no "good" Imp players or that they have no idea how to use Rhymer, and that people in general are unimaginative in fleet design. I've seen you do it multiple times, twice in this thread. And I'll keep reporting it until the mods finally do something.

 

I also have you blocked :wub: I got tired of your "Worlds is the Minnesota meta" rhetoric. 

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49 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

The Quasar and AF have the same hull which is 6 so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

You are correct about the distance for once. You can keep Stronghold at long (but not by much) and keep your squads at distance 2 of Stronghold and at distance 1 of an enemy ship. That will be quite useful now that I measured it myself, but the fact remains that the Quasar does not want to be getting into a fight. It's not an AF nor GH, and cannot sustain continued fire. By putting it so close to medium range, you're just begging your opponent to close the game. Guess we will see how effective the ship is.

And you do attack players and you say they have no skill, that there are no "good" Imp players or that they have no idea how to use Rhymer, and that people in general are unimaginative in fleet design. I've seen you do it multiple times, twice in this thread. And I'll keep reporting it until the mods finally do something.

 

I also have you blocked :wub: I got tired of your "Worlds is the Minnesota meta" rhetoric. 

To be honest it is usually not that important to keep fighters covered while bombarding ships, that will be kind of danger close to enemy turbolasers, at least for the Quasar.

 

It is more important to keep your fighters covered while fighting opposing fighters who usually will be further away from enemy ships.

 

Bombers and Advanced can generally take the beating from AA and when enemy fighter cover is beaten you can perhaps afford to get a quasar closer, but by that time you probably already won that battle anyway. It is usually more sane to attack ships and then retreat back to a station to heal and then engage again next turn, if possible, rather than risk your carrier too close to the battle (most of the time), unless that carrier is a Star Destroyer or something.

 

The Rebel Assault Frigate are not a very sturdy vessel at closer ranges either so it will also like to be at a stand off range from any enemy fire, but it can surely take a beating at long range if it has to. At medium and close range it is rather weak.

Edited by jorgen_cab

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31 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

To be honest it is usually not that important to keep fighters covered while bombarding ships, that will be kind of danger close to enemy turbolasers, at least for the Quasar.

 

It is more important to keep your fighters covered while fighting opposing fighters who usually will be further away from enemy ships.

 

Bombers and Advanced can generally take the beating from AA and when enemy fighter cover is beaten you can perhaps afford to get a quasar closer, but by that time you probably already won that battle anyway. It is usually more sane to attack ships and then retreat back to a station to heal and then engage again next turn, if possible, rather than risk your carrier too close to the battle (most of the time), unless that carrier is a Star Destroyer or something.

 

The Rebel Assault Frigate are not a very sturdy vessel at closer ranges either so it will also like to be at a stand off range from any enemy fire, but it can surely take a beating at long range if it has to. At medium and close range it is rather weak.

Swm26-stronghold

Keeping your Swarm squads in Stronghold would be important for defending against AA shots from ships. It negates flotillas too which is great. Stronghold won't work on Tie/A or bombers so that doesn't really matter. Considering how fragile the Quasar is, I wouldn't want to move the Quasar in until my Ties are weak and have mostly won the squad fight. 

The difference between Stronghold and GH is the type of squads you are taking. Stronghold requires Swarm. GH jsut reduces damage, which means you can move bombers like Y-Wings. So getting into close range of GH is lethal because when it activates, it will take a shot or 2 at you, and then attack with squads. Regardless, I'd put money on an AF surviving a close range shot over a Quasar. 

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Okay, read the name of the card's Title. It tells you how to play it. You have a small defensive fighter screen at home while sending out the bulk of your fighters to attack. If you are trying to use a card named Stronghold as an offensive card, you are doing it wrong.

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6 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Swm26-stronghold

Keeping your Swarm squads in Stronghold would be important for defending against AA shots from ships. It negates flotillas too which is great. Stronghold won't work on Tie/A or bombers so that doesn't really matter. Considering how fragile the Quasar is, I wouldn't want to move the Quasar in until my Ties are weak and have mostly won the squad fight. 

The difference between Stronghold and GH is the type of squads you are taking. Stronghold requires Swarm. GH jsut reduces damage, which means you can move bombers like Y-Wings. So getting into close range of GH is lethal because when it activates, it will take a shot or 2 at you, and then attack with squads. Regardless, I'd put money on an AF surviving a close range shot over a Quasar. 

Yeah... forgot it only protected Swarm fighters.

Whether stronghold protect the fighters during the initial turn or not will likely depend entirely on each battle... I don't believe you will have any principal rule about it. If you feel it can protect them you most likely will try to do so. It will be a risk assessment as anything else.

The Assault Frigate are tougher than a Quasar, there are no question about that. I just mentioned that the Assault Frigate are also a platform that like to stay at range where it can use its Evade defences to good effect, and since it has mainly red dice that is the range at which it want to be against bigger ships.

Even if the Assault Frigate is tougher does not mean it like to operate in the same way even if it can risk a closer engagement more often than a Quasar.

Edited by jorgen_cab

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Another thing you might consider with say an Assault Frigate and the Quasar is points cost and how that effects their role and use in your fleet. A Gallant Haven command frigate is 80p and a Quasar with Strong Hold and a Gozanti is 82p. This give some huge flexibility to the Imperial player and between 6-8 activation's to 3-4 for Gallant Haven.

 

I'm not saying that this means Gallant Haven is a bad ship or less worth, just that it is a different proposition and need to be seen as having widely different uses.

 

In my opinion Gallant haven is perfect for protecting a rebel strike force or just to protect they fighter in turn two from a big alpha strike, which can be rather important since this is what the Imperial side excels at. You can also get a similar more dynamic effect with Jan Ors and a Jamming Field which I like more since it is not tied to a specific place.

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4 hours ago, jorgen_cab said:

Even if the Assault Frigate is tougher does not mean it like to operate in the same way even if it can risk a closer engagement more often than a Quasar.

Clearly we play differently because I have no issue driving GH into my opponent and forcing them to deal with the swarm of bombers I'm dragging with. I'm pretty sure other top tier players have done the same thing and won by doing that.

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19 hours ago, xerpo said:

You got to be kidding, no wonders why I find rebels more creative and tacticaly superior :lol:, Try to keep a bunch of fighters into Gallant heaven first and youll be trained for this amusing task.

The issue is more the haven is a good bitmore durable than the quasar.  2 is plenty of space, but you can't be as aggressive here.

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1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Clearly we play differently because I have no issue driving GH into my opponent and forcing them to deal with the swarm of bombers I'm dragging with. I'm pretty sure other top tier players have done the same thing and won by doing that.

That's exactly how to do it.  GH is eminently tradable.

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1 hour ago, Darthain said:

The issue is more the haven is a good bitmore durable than the quasar.  2 is plenty of space, but you can't be as aggressive here.

Why not? Its not as durable as an AFMK but is certainly much more tradeable. What youre looking into is to keep it alive all the time you can, fit tua + ecm to ensure that brace. But it is going to blow at some point do not doubt that. Noone escapes untouched unless youre playing with real new player. Difference is that im taking barely 1/6 of your list with it. Killing GH is 1/5 - 1/4 of my list, depending on how durable you want it to be.

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A better argument for stronghold requiring a different build is that the Rebel GH lists depend upon a combination of elements for their success.  It isn't just GH, it is what Rieekan did to ensuring that bubble lasted.  By preserving GH with Rieekan, it ensured that all the squads were protected as long as they needed.  Yavaris, which could also be protected with Rieekan offered a huge force multiple to the attacking squadrons, and that force multiplier is huge.  The flotillas offered back-up squadron commands in the event GH or Yavaris go down.  I'm not going to list the rest.  And although the list is playable without Rieekan, it does lose some effectiveness with Dodonna.  How much the Rieekan nerf effects things is yet to be seen, but in the hands of a skilled player, the list archetype is still going to be quite good.

 

For the Quasar and Stronghold, maybe a gigantic tie swarm with Sloan would create the same kind of "mop up the squadron game and then kill the ships."  But note that there's going to be a different supporting cast of ships around that Quasar.

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19 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I beg to differ.

First, Stronghold is 5 not 4.

Second, an Assault Frigate is much better at staying alive than a Quasar will be. Overall, an AF as 5 more shields, and an Evade. Because of that, the AF costs more.

Third, Stronghold straight up prevents attacks from 1 AA ships. Which means they can't modify dice which means they can't add dice. To do that, you need to have your squads at distance 1-2 of the Quasar, which means your Quasar is getting in to close-medium range. You can see my second point on how the Quasar will survive at such close range.

Fourth, why do you keep attacking players and insinuating they have no skill? Knock it off.
"The argument here was about the OP struggling with maintaining his fighters into distance 2"
"You got to be kidding, no wonders why I find rebels more creative and tacticaly superior"

Keep the Quasar in formation between  two Vic-II's.  Make the enemy pay for coming in to medium range to engage the Quasar.

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