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IceQube MkII

What if... Armada 2.0

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1 - Apologies for my newest callsign... I had to use "MkII" because "IceQube" was already taken (by me)!

2 - Was talking to my buddy Derek...  (we were talking RuneWars which seems to be best practices and lessons learned from IA, Armada, XWing)...

WHAT IF... the 4 commands were mapped to ship size with a corresponding initiative)?  With 4 commands and 3 ship sizes, you would only have to remember 12 initiatives... ships with similar initiatives would alternate activations.

Of course, you could make more permutations for initiative but I'm just starting the conversation off with the base example.

Thoughts?

 

BTW - Happy 4th for Americans... and I guess our British friends across the pond should be grateful for not having to deal with obnoxious Americans!  LOL

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26 minutes ago, IceQube MkII said:

1 - Apologies for my newest callsign... I had to use "MkII" because "IceQube" was already taken (by me)!

2 - Was talking to my buddy Derek...  (we were talking RuneWars which seems to be best practices and lessons learned from IA, Armada, XWing)...

WHAT IF... the 4 commands were mapped to ship size with a corresponding initiative)?  With 4 commands and 3 ship sizes, you would only have to remember 12 initiatives... ships with similar initiatives would alternate activations.

Of course, you could make more permutations for initiative but I'm just starting the conversation off with the base example.

Thoughts?

 

BTW - Happy 4th for Americans... and I guess our British friends across the pond should be grateful for not having to deal with obnoxious Americans!  LOL

Seeing I don't play RW,I haven't the foggiest idea what you are proposing. Could you elaborate?

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30 minutes ago, mobow213 said:

Scratches head.

So you are saying ships should activate in a order determined by their command dial?

That's basically how it works in Runewars, yes.

 

In Runewars, the initiative and activation order are based on the order you are giving, and then, the modifiers to said order...

 

So in the choice of melee attacks, for example - you could have a fast melee attack that does lesser damage, but goes off first (potentially removing enemy models, reducing their damage ability back to you), versus a slower, really heavy attack, which might give your enemy an opportunity to strike first or dodge - but if it hits, hurts a bunch.

 

THis is why Runewars Dials are actually two Dials, for example :)

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1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

That's basically how it works in Runewars, yes.

 

In Runewars, the initiative and activation order are based on the order you are giving, and then, the modifiers to said order...

 

So in the choice of melee attacks, for example - you could have a fast melee attack that does lesser damage, but goes off first (potentially removing enemy models, reducing their damage ability back to you), versus a slower, really heavy attack, which might give your enemy an opportunity to strike first or dodge - but if it hits, hurts a bunch.

 

THis is why Runewars Dials are actually two Dials, for example :)

Yes, but it can't really be pigeon holed into Armada, per the OP, as the incentives do not exist as they do in RW, and the turn structure is completely different.

In Armada you get to (potentially) do everything, in RW you do one thing only a round. Much more micro turn orientated.  Not to mention with only 4 options, locked in by base size it would be cripplingly restrictive in comparison.

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Well we are assuming RW system is better than armada at this point. While runewars strives to tackle since of the issues previous games have had, I think it has yet to prove that RW has fixed those issues without creating any new ones.

One thing about runewars is every units dials are different, and contain a multitude of possibilities at different initiatives. When there are four factions and like ten units per, good luck remembering what that elf rider can accomplish this turn versus your archers say. It almost seems a bit too random but I haven't played it much. I do enjoy it though, but armada has a simple elegant system that I find quite enjoyable.

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Would it not be a pain to use that system when ships can easily crash into one another if they are not moved in a certain order?

 

I would rather like to see a separate move and shooting phase since that would get rid of most of the imbalance between activation and first/second players issues. Pretty much the only change I would like to see.

Edited by jorgen_cab

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Some of my ideas.

  • More than 4 commands so that hidden information is actually something in Armada.
  • Try to streamline the game so that a 6 turn limit is not needed nor will it take 5 hours to play a game. (12 turns 75 minuets is the target for standard games).
  • Generic squadrons have an inherent defense to represent shields or evasion rather than just take every damage.
  • Cloak would also be a defensive token for ships.
  • Maybe instead of speed dials 0-4 engine power dials (Stop, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. Full, and Reverse) would be in place and the speed and turns will be on the dial. (or even better a duel maneuver dial so that you can focus on acceleration or on bearing).
  • More on landings, droids, boarding, squadrons maybe even commander (or jedi) duels.

Any ways that is a few. I said this before but honestly I think Armada makes a better Star Trek game than a Star Wars game. However it is getting closer to Star Wars with more squadron options now all it is missing is the droids. And here the Imperials can have droids to their ships as well.

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1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Some of my ideas.

  1. More than 4 commands so that hidden information is actually something in Armada.
  2. Try to streamline the game so that a 6 turn limit is not needed nor will it take 5 hours to play a game. (12 turns 75 minuets is the target for standard games).
  3. Generic squadrons have an inherent defense to represent shields or evasion rather than just take every damage. 
  4. Cloak would also be a defensive token for ships.
  5. Maybe instead of speed dials 0-4 engine power dials (Stop, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. Full, and Reverse) would be in place and the speed and turns will be on the dial. (or even better a duel maneuver dial so that you can focus on acceleration or on bearing).
  6. More on landings, droids, boarding, squadrons maybe even commander (or jedi) duels.

Any ways that is a few. I said this before but honestly I think Armada makes a better Star Trek game than a Star Wars game. However it is getting closer to Star Wars with more squadron options now all it is missing is the droids. And here the Imperials can have droids to their ships as well.

 

  1. We don't need more commands.  We need better command effects so that ships can have better reasons for putting multiple commands in the stack.
  2. Agreed.  This is something that needs to happen.  Quickly.
  3. They do.  It's called "critical results do not cause damage."  It needs to go away.
  4. It's called "scatter" and it never should have been put on ships at all.
  5. The maneuver system is the one consistently good thing about the ship game.  It doesn't need to change and more combat games need something like it.
  6. This is what house rules and campaigns are for.  If you over-complicate the game with cluttered up mechanics, you end up with longer and longer games with more mechanical interactions bouncing off each other and eventually you have a few mechanics that are really powerful and abused and others that are never seen.  This is exactly what happened to Warhammer 40k to force the mass changeover to their new edition, and also what it plaguing game balance in X-Wing and Imperial Assault.  Many of the things that have required Erratas and FAQs in Armada involve unrestricted or unique mechanical interactions.
Edited by thecactusman17

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31 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

 

  1. We don't need more commands.  We need better command effects so that ships can have better reasons for putting multiple commands in the stack.
  2. Agreed.  This is something that needs to happen.  Quickly.
  3. They do.  It's called "critical results do not cause damage."  It needs to go away.
  4. It's called "scatter" and it never should have been put on ships at all.
  5. The maneuver system is the one consistently good thing about the ship game.  It doesn't need to change and more combat games need something like it.
  6. This is what house rules and campaigns are for.  If you over-complicate the game with cluttered up mechanics, you end up with longer and longer games with more mechanical interactions bouncing off each other and eventually you have a few mechanics that are really powerful and abused and others that are never seen.  This is exactly what happened to Warhammer 40k to force the mass changeover to their new edition, and also what it plaguing game balance in X-Wing and Imperial Assault.  Many of the things that have required Erratas and FAQs in Armada involve unrestricted or unique mechanical interactions.

Well I think I will take this on revers order. But yeah to be honest Armada seems closer to Warhammer 40,000 than it is closer to X-wing in terms of movement and organization structure. Now with stuff like landings and other things Armada has the objective mechanics that can make those possible. It would be abstract but it would be something that can be done. 

For the movement system it is a good maneuver system but I find it rather restrictive especially with larger ships that have a maximum speed of 2. I'm not saying that speed should be increased but maybe have engine dials that translate into different speeds, but for that you would also need a more flexible navigation system other than a command/token to adjust the dial. As far as scatter is cloak I doubt it. Cloak shouldn't be able to cancel all hits unless it could say move out of a firing arc which would be more in flavor of cloaking technology. But how could such movement be integrated with current ship/squadron movement will be complicated and as you said we need to streamline not convolute the rules.

The critical hit on the blue dice that count as blanks against squadron is not necessarily something that should go away. I like the fact that the blue die has no blank sides. Honestly my ideal game (thinking of Star Trek) is to have dice that has something on every side but depending on the type of attack and target there are some sides that simply don't do damage or have an effect (sort of like Imperial Assault dice but only 8 sided instead of 6). However you are right, critical hits should not be that result.

But yeah the command stack is rather lacking and somewhat predictable. The tokens don't provide enough advantage to offset the command stack. A complete overhaul would be nice. However the command stack is the only hidden information and hidden information is hard to do in a table top game. I know Firestorm Armada tried to use "tactic" cards which could provide a surprise but I always thought they were clunky. I like the dial system better, it has more potential than a "trap card". However with only 4 commands and the function of those commands making the ship rather predictable (this one going to squadron, this one going to engineer, this one going to fire), the game could be helped with both better commands and a slightly larger selection. Not talking X-wing, 5 commands would be plenty.

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Using the term 2.0 suggested a rework of the overall game and frankly I just don't see it as being needed. 

I play RW as well and I think the initiative system over there is well designed for that type of game, Armada just isn't a rank and file combat game, it's a space based fleet action. They strongly benefit from having different designs. Don't cross the streams!

With the new FAQ, really the activation advantage is probably the one element in the game that is up for debate if anything should or shouldn't be done about it. With the "Admirals can't be on flotillas" nerf I saw that as an interesting push back towards using transports as an activation advantage mechanism. With that dynamic now if you put your admiral on something small, you really take an interesting risk.

Enter the hammerheads and their low price ...umm yeah pretty easy to kit one of those out fly admiral on that away from the action which in my opinion works against the nerf completely, at least for the Rebels. 

All in all, we're in a new meta and I find more enjoyment in that than stressing over big redesigns in the game. Least for now!

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Passing would not really work well since now the player with less ships have more or less the same advantage as the other side had before. They can wait to activate when it is beneficial or activate first when that is beneficial.

Just have separate movement and shouting phases, that would be most fair to both sides.

You could however get rid of the last/first abusive effect.

Edited by jorgen_cab

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2 minutes ago, jorgen_cab said:

Just have separate movement and shouting phases, that would be most fair to both sides.

Isn't that what we have now? :D

 

I feel Shoot-Then-Move is a defining feature of Armada versus just about everything else out there...  Would you maintain that as part of discussion?  (IE, have your Separate Phases, but Shooting is First...)

 

 - I feel, a separation of phases kills off small craft entirely...  With the ability to essentially always return fire, what's the point of having multiple small ships, when an big ship is always going to plant two of them in the dirt?

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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No... all ships move and then all ships fire or vice versa... does not really matter in which order it is done with separate phases since ship can't shoot at each other in the first turn.

You would still alternate movement and shooting in every phase between the players.

Edited by jorgen_cab

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On 7/4/2017 at 10:52 AM, SkyCake said:

Well we are assuming RW system is better than armada at this point. While runewars strives to tackle since of the issues previous games have had, I think it has yet to prove that RW has fixed those issues without creating any new ones.

One thing about runewars is every units dials are different, and contain a multitude of possibilities at different initiatives. When there are four factions and like ten units per, good luck remembering what that elf rider can accomplish this turn versus your archers say. It almost seems a bit too random but I haven't played it much. I do enjoy it though, but armada has a simple elegant system that I find quite enjoyable.

Given time you probably get used to remembering more or less what everyone can do. You most likely won't be able to list off most of it from memory, but you can probably remember specific details when they become relevant. "Can this guy charge far enough to hit my archers," for example. Over time you get used to correctly remembering the answer to that question even if you'd forget some of their move options if you tried to list all the actions and modifiers off the top of your head. 

 

Anyway, I don't see what this does for Armada. Would ships activate in the order of their commands? That could be interesting but it would require another overhaul to the command system. Maybe use the two dial system from Rune Wars, with the left dial just being the options we already have, and the right providing modifiers. So Engineering's modifiers could be things like extremely high initiative with minor repairs, or go late in the turn but remove two damage cards. Smaller ships would get faster actions (generally speaking) but have weaker modifiers. The actual initiative value would probably go on the modifier dial, since the idea would be that yo're either doing it NOW or taking your time to do it better. So Concentrate Fire might be one the 'fastest' options available if you don't actually get an effect out of it, or you could go last to add a die and get the token. 

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As the game stand it will be impossible to have a varied initiative system in Armada due to how easy it would be for ships to collide with each other... at least it would be difficult to handle any formation flying. In my opinion this would not add anything good to the game without redesigning how that would work.

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