A Problem for the Game

[JoeyBriefcase 107]

FREE AT LAST, SWEET LORD I'M FREE AT LAST.

RIP Fast Hands Vader and Poe

Edited July 7, 2017 by JonasBenz

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

Great, this thread again...

I get your complaint, and I can see where playing against this kind of stuff is annoying. However, Poe/Maz does not always win, there's a lot of deckbuilding skill that goes into it, and the numbers show that although it's doing well, it's not completely dominating the meta, so it can be beaten. 

Fast Hands actually isn't always the best play. You're sacrificing an action to play it (first turn actions/battlefield claim can be crucial) and it's taking up an upgrade slot.

So I get that these decks aren't super fun, but they're not breaking the game. Just play other good decks that can beat them at tournaments, and don't play them in casual play with your friends.

[MMelissa 0]

5 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Great, this thread again...

I get your complaint, and I can see where playing against this kind of stuff is annoying. However, Poe/Maz does not always win, there's a lot of deckbuilding skill that goes into it, and the numbers show that although it's doing well, it's not completely dominating the meta, so it can be beaten. 

Fast Hands actually isn't always the best play. You're sacrificing an action to play it (first turn actions/battlefield claim can be crucial) and it's taking up an upgrade slot.

So I get that these decks aren't super fun, but they're not breaking the game. Just play other good decks that can beat them at tournaments, and don't play them in casual play with your friends.

Guys, right now this is the deck no one wants to play against, the deck that a lot of people talk about being the best and the comment I come across the most in response to our tournament reports.

"I guess no one was playing Poe/Maz then"

I wanted to start testing some phenomenal game later, or aware me which one is the best ?

Edited July 4, 2017 by MMelissa
Spell mistake

[Buhallin 4,563]

Lots of people agree with you OP, including some of the larger names in commentating, but there's a big contingent of "Everything's fine" who'll happily shout you down.

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out what they want Destiny to be - is Awakenings the baseline, or SoR?  Because if the current game is what they want it to be, and all the interesting back and forth you talk about from Awakenings was basically a fluke, I'm out.  But it's hard to tell right now which one is the real game, and which is the screwup.

 

[JuzFuzz 30]

I can confirm that cheating actions doesn't always win you games. Quite often I've played with Rey and did her thing, but I was left with nothing but my pants down.

I've only started playing SWD since about February this year (never played anything else) so I have a very limited perspective on the game issues. I wonder if the next set will indicate where this game is going a little better - or not...

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

 

47 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Lots of people agree with you OP, including some of the larger names in commentating, but there's a big contingent of "Everything's fine" who'll happily shout you down.

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out what they want Destiny to be - is Awakenings the baseline, or SoR?  Because if the current game is what they want it to be, and all the interesting back and forth you talk about from Awakenings was basically a fluke, I'm out.  But it's hard to tell right now which one is the real game, and which is the screwup.

 

No, I actually do agree with the OP, and I don't just blindly say "everything's fine" or try to shout people down for thinking otherwise. The metagame has polarized disturbingly quickly after just two waves. There's a disturbing difference between the power levels of a top-tier deck built with several legendary cards and the kind of deck you can build with a starter and a few boosters, and it makes this game daunting to get in to and expensive to keep up with.

All I'm trying to say is that if dice control and interacting that way is a big part of the game, avoiding dice control (at a reasonable cost) is also going to be part of the game, no matter how the game gets designed. Rey is in a lot of ways the ultimate action cheater, and she's a starter set character. The real problem with Poe/Maz (and a lot of the top-tier decks) is that they're pretty unbeatable for any non-top-tier deck. This game has reached a disturbing level of pay-to-win, and I think that the problem is largely independent of action cheating.

I understand not liking the non-interactiveness of certain decks, but this is not a problem that wasn't present with Awakenings. I remember getting flattened by Leia/Ackbar with the Hit and Run/It's a Trap play frequently. 

[soviet prince 105]

ppl need to get just because something can be beaten does not mean it's not broken and bad for the game, what is important is the consistency of the wins to it's losses to the other decks in the field.

[Abyss 376]

I disagree that the issue is 'pay to win'. There's plenty of decks that are somewhat viable without having to be packed with Legendaries.

Action cheating is the current major issue IMO, because it's inherently a negative play experience, even if it's not dominating the game. It takes the normal interaction between players, and tells one of them to go sit in the corner while the other one plays. Playing against some decks is literally 'hope they draw/roll badly', which is really not good for the game.

Granted, it's not *just* action cheating. Some of it is fine. For example, I don't really have an issue with Hit and Run or Tactical Mastery. They are options, but are generally one and done with reasonable restrictions. But Maz, Rey and to an extent Fast Hands are silly, particularly in combination with other effects (Fast Hands is too good without restrictions, but at the same time it's also a good counter to the other ridiculousness).

(It's a Trap is also terrible design, but more because of the incredible variance and blowout potential rather than it being non interactive. It's costed the same as Force Strike, but randomly lets you do like 10 damage just because your opponent rolled one ranged damage. That's stupid).

[Vitalis 1,012]

Yesterday i played eRey/qQuigonn (the ultra slow, upgrade, removal version) vs PoeMaz (maxed out fast version with removals).

I won with around 8 HP left on QuiGonn. Its is beatable, and it required some heavy decision making.

 

45 minutes ago, Abyss said:

I disagree that the issue is 'pay to win'. There's plenty of decks that are somewhat viable without having to be packed with Legendaries.

Agreed 100%. Mentione rey/qui is prime example. Only Vibroknifes and Luke's LS are cards worth more then 10$, rest are just commons/uncommons with some cheap rares.

[orogiad 0]

2 hours ago, Vitalis said:

Yesterday i played eRey/qQuigonn (the ultra slow, upgrade, removal version) vs PoeMaz (maxed out fast version with removals).

I won with around 8 HP left on QuiGonn. Its is beatable, and it required some heavy decision making.

 

Agreed 100%. Mentione rey/qui is prime example. Only Vibroknifes and Luke's LS are cards worth more then 10$, rest are just commons/uncommons with some cheap rares.

for a budget version sure, but arent many of them running 2 force speeds and one with the force?

 

if you have a deck list id be interested in seeing it. i just pulled two Qui Gons the other day and have been wanting to make a deck, but the lists i looked up had some expensive cards that i either dont have or only own one of.  thanks.

Edited July 4, 2017 by orogiad

[MMelissa 0]

Some people are confused which is the original version of this game. They want to know about it.

[Vitalis 1,012]

1 hour ago, orogiad said:

for a budget version sure, but arent many of them running 2 force speeds and one with the force?

 

if you have a deck list id be interested in seeing it. i just pulled two Qui Gons the other day and have been wanting to make a deck, but the lists i looked up had some expensive cards that i either dont have or only own one of.  thanks.

Sure to make it optimal, but it can work just fine without it.  I dont have exact decklist in front of me but it goes more or less:

Hoth, eRey, eQuigon
2x Lightsaber
2x Force Protection
2x Force Throw
2x Force Training
2x Jedi Robes
1x Vibro (i can't get hold of second one...thats only reason why not 2)
1 Luke Lightsaber
1 Makashi

2xIt Binds All Things
1x Your Eyes Can Deceive You

2x Synchronicity
2x Deflect
2x Riposte
2x Defensive Stance
2x Caution
1x My Ally is the Force
1x High Ground
1x Guard


More or less i write it from memory  As you can see most rares are rather cheap defensive ones, and commons/uncommons are dead cheap to get and make most of this deck. Key is to play it slow, even get one of your chars to low hp just to build up the momentum - after force protection is up and running only vibros are dangerous (i guess i need second Guard and You Eyes... in here, but makashi can do the trick too).

Edited July 4, 2017 by Vitalis

[JoeyBriefcase 107]

5 hours ago, Abyss said:

I disagree that the issue is 'pay to win'. There's plenty of decks that are somewhat viable without having to be packed with Legendaries.

Action cheating is the current major issue IMO, because it's inherently a negative play experience, even if it's not dominating the game. It takes the normal interaction between players, and tells one of them to go sit in the corner while the other one plays. Playing against some decks is literally 'hope they draw/roll badly', which is really not good for the game.

Granted, it's not *just* action cheating. Some of it is fine. For example, I don't really have an issue with Hit and Run or Tactical Mastery. They are options, but are generally one and done with reasonable restrictions. But Maz, Rey and to an extent Fast Hands are silly, particularly in combination with other effects (Fast Hands is too good without restrictions, but at the same time it's also a good counter to the other ridiculousness).

(It's a Trap is also terrible design, but more because of the incredible variance and blowout potential rather than it being non interactive. It's costed the same as Force Strike, but randomly lets you do like 10 damage just because your opponent rolled one ranged damage. That's stupid).

 I like the combos in this game, 1-2 cards that pair well and can be used only when you play to them. It is action cheating, but it is also heavily telegraphed.

I played Krennic/DT and my favorite combo was Tactical Mastery into We Have Them Now. You have to work pretty hard to make that go well and of you do you're rewarded.

A) You have to have both cards in hand.

B) You have to control the battlefield

C) You have to have 3 resources

D) You have to have your characters rolled out

Edited July 4, 2017 by JonasBenz

[Stone37 3,353]

In ANY CCG, some cards are wildly better than others.  But this game is still pretty diverse.  I think the meta is hung up on a single type of deck and a smart player can take advantage of this.  

Try this:  Reduce your dependency on upgrades and pick a strong 2 or 3 heroes to center your deck around.  Place NO MORE than 10 Upgrades in your deck.  Throw in 2 to 4 Supports. The rest of your deck should be event cards.  That's right.... 16 to 18 event cards.  Control, mitigate, re-roll, and destroy!  Make the best of your starting dice and ruin anything else that hits the board!  If you're playing Yellow and/or Red, put some upgrade/support destruction cards in there.  I've yet played a game where my opponent was ready for that.

I'm not ignoring Poe/Maz....  If anything, I'm building decks JUST to beat that one.  When the meta is this predictable take advantage of that.

[Abyss 376]

16 hours ago, Stone37 said:

In ANY CCG, some cards are wildly better than others.  But this game is still pretty diverse.  I think the meta is hung up on a single type of deck and a smart player can take advantage of this.  

Try this:  Reduce your dependency on upgrades and pick a strong 2 or 3 heroes to center your deck around.  Place NO MORE than 10 Upgrades in your deck.  Throw in 2 to 4 Supports. The rest of your deck should be event cards.  That's right.... 16 to 18 event cards.  Control, mitigate, re-roll, and destroy!  Make the best of your starting dice and ruin anything else that hits the board!  If you're playing Yellow and/or Red, put some upgrade/support destruction cards in there.  I've yet played a game where my opponent was ready for that.

I'm not ignoring Poe/Maz....  If anything, I'm building decks JUST to beat that one.  When the meta is this predictable take advantage of that.

I'm not sure that 'take more control' is actually the answer to stopping the deck that is specifically about trying to avoid you being able to control it. 

[Amanal 2,557]

3 hours ago, Abyss said:

I'm not sure that 'take more control' is actually the answer to stopping the deck that is specifically about trying to avoid you being able to control it. 

Remove a Poe dice a turn and you almost halve the damage you'll take.

Other wise I think Stone37 may be suggesting that going beyond that is important to take care of other decks.

As a "rule of thumb" the 10/4/16 is a fine starting point, more so with supports that don't cost an action to take effect.

[KalEl814 1,510]

On 7/4/2017 at 1:59 AM, Buhallin said:

Lots of people agree with you OP, including some of the larger names in commentating, but there's a big contingent of "Everything's fine" who'll happily shout you down.

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out what they want Destiny to be - is Awakenings the baseline, or SoR?  Because if the current game is what they want it to be, and all the interesting back and forth you talk about from Awakenings was basically a fluke, I'm out.  But it's hard to tell right now which one is the real game, and which is the screwup.

Rey jankery has been there since day one, and Force Speed was designed before Awakenings was on the shelf. Jango has been mucking with that since the beginning as well.

Framing the current situation as "real game" vs "screw up" is a pretty lousy false dichotomy.

[Abyss 376]

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Remove a Poe dice a turn and you almost halve the damage you'll take.

Other wise I think Stone37 may be suggesting that going beyond that is important to take care of other decks.

As a "rule of thumb" the 10/4/16 is a fine starting point, more so with supports that don't cost an action to take effect.

Except for all the time that you can't, because they Fast Hands/Hit and Run/Cunning etc. Yes, you want a lot of control against that deck, but it's not an easy answer that people just refuse to do.

[Buhallin 4,563]

6 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

Rey jankery has been there since day one, and Force Speed was designed before Awakenings was on the shelf. Jango has been mucking with that since the beginning as well.

Framing the current situation as "real game" vs "screw up" is a pretty lousy false dichotomy.

The idea that any amount of action cheating justifies an unlimited amount of action cheating is just dumb, and it's an argument that needs to die.  Rey's jankery was there, but turned up to 11 with the addition of more (and better) Ambush weapons and Force Speed.  Jango was there, but pretty much always limited to a +1 action.  Red Hero cards arguably had the most cheating, but they were all events and stacked in what was otherwise the weakest group of cards.

And there's nothing false about the alternatives I'm presenting.  Action cheating/speed plays (because it's more than just actions) is fine in limited quantities.  This is how it was in Awakenings.  Rey is arguably underpriced for her ability, but is still just a single character.  Ambush was available widely, and was generally fine because it was limited and purposeful.  But SoR expanded it dramatically in both quality and quantity.  The new speed cards were both more general (Force Speed, Fast Hands) and more broadly usable (Fast Hands).

Awakenings managed a good balance between action/resolution cheating and the interactivity that many people think is the core of the game.  SoR skewed that balance dramatically.  Even if you don't phrase it as "Which is the screwup?" the question of which is the intended game is very real, and very relevant.

[ozmodon 535]

On 7/4/2017 at 0:47 AM, Kieransi said:

 

No, I actually do agree with the OP, and I don't just blindly say "everything's fine" or try to shout people down for thinking otherwise. The metagame has polarized disturbingly quickly after just two waves. There's a disturbing difference between the power levels of a top-tier deck built with several legendary cards and the kind of deck you can build with a starter and a few boosters, and it makes this game daunting to get in to and expensive to keep up with.

All I'm trying to say is that if dice control and interacting that way is a big part of the game, avoiding dice control (at a reasonable cost) is also going to be part of the game, no matter how the game gets designed. Rey is in a lot of ways the ultimate action cheater, and she's a starter set character. The real problem with Poe/Maz (and a lot of the top-tier decks) is that they're pretty unbeatable for any non-top-tier deck. This game has reached a disturbing level of pay-to-win, and I think that the problem is largely independent of action cheating.

I understand not liking the non-interactiveness of certain decks, but this is not a problem that wasn't present with Awakenings. I remember getting flattened by Leia/Ackbar with the Hit and Run/It's a Trap play frequently. 

I love the word frequently!  I bet it wasn't  more than twice per game. There was a price that had to be paid. Now with Fast  Hands and Force Speed it just happens for Free!  That being said, I tried and took out Fast Hands from my Jango, Veers deck. It took the synergy from it. People take time building decks around Characters  they love, only to have them killed in turn one. Often before they can even activate.  The designer talks about diminishing results from consecutive actions. The saddest part of this is, okay action one I do 5 damage then action 2 I do 3 damage followed by action 3 I only do two damage. That's till 10 damage in one turn and your character is still dead. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by ozmodon

[JoeyBriefcase 107]

I've heard whisperings that Fast Hands will be errata'd.

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

 

27 minutes ago, JonasBenz said:

I've heard whisperings that Fast Hands will be errata'd.

I'm not going to argue whether or not Fast Hands should be errata'ed. That card is really powerful, and it is free, and it sure shows up in a lot of the top tier decks, but I do see where it isn't necessarily the best option in all decks because it takes up and upgrade slot and doesn't help you with overwriting.

I do want to say that you should take those "whisperings" with a grain of salt. I've heard similar rumors about Poe Dameron being one of the characters in the next starter set...

[JoeyBriefcase 107]

44 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

 

I'm not going to argue whether or not Fast Hands should be errata'ed. That card is really powerful, and it is free, and it sure shows up in a lot of the top tier decks, but I do see where it isn't necessarily the best option in all decks because it takes up and upgrade slot and doesn't help you with overwriting.

I do want to say that you should take those "whisperings" with a grain of salt. I've heard similar rumors about Poe Dameron being one of the characters in the next starter set...

Oh yeah, I don't believe they would re-release Poe. Something as simple as making Fast Hands yellow character only would be plenty.

[Shaadea 258]

Poe by himself isn't the problem. Only when combined with Maz or Rey is he taking off the ground (Maz being the best choice of course). So in Poe/Maz the real problem is Maz. But since there will probably be more cards coming with similar effects it's probably easier to do something about Poe if someone (game designer) really wants to break the Poe/Maz deck. That will leave Maz in the wild of course, to go partner with some other charakter (Maz/eMace going to be a thing?).

The amount of action cheating is really annoying, and until rotation sets in or drastical change in rules happens (only allowed to do x actions per turn, similar to the limit for resolving dice that reroll back into pool) that will only get worse with each new expansion.

[Buhallin 4,563]

55 minutes ago, Shaadea said:

Poe by himself isn't the problem. Only when combined with Maz or Rey is he taking off the ground (Maz being the best choice of course). So in Poe/Maz the real problem is Maz. But since there will probably be more cards coming with similar effects it's probably easier to do something about Poe if someone (game designer) really wants to break the Poe/Maz deck. That will leave Maz in the wild of course, to go partner with some other charakter (Maz/eMace going to be a thing?).

Maz will still be a problem, but I've come to think a big part of the Poe/Maz issue is the ease (and free) of things like Thermal Detonator.  Vehicle-only would reduce the blast effect to just U-wing, which would be a good thing.  One of the major problems with Poe/Maz is that it makes 3+ character decks nearly unplayable.  I ate 22 damage before my first action of Turn 2 this past weekend.  Fixing Poe is at least an incremental fix.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all to see Maz limited to resolving her own dice though.