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SkyJedi

Alternative Auto Fire suggestion

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4 minutes ago, SkyJedi said:

i see you're not the bigger man, then

Have I been rude to anyone, called anyone names? Nope. I've provided a logical arument, based upon practical experience and precedences provided by multiple systems. I, along iwht several other people have provided reasons why this proposal is faulty, and why we disagree with how HappyDaze does thing s too. None of us has been rude about it nor am I personally attacking you or anyone else. Disagreeing with you, and showing you why we believe you are in error is not attacking you. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Have I been rude to anyone, called anyone names? Nope. I've provided a logical arument, based upon practical experience and precedences provided by multiple systems. I, along iwht several other people have provided reasons why this proposal is faulty, and why we disagree with how HappyDaze does thing s too. None of us has been rude about it nor am I personally attacking you or anyone else. Disagreeing with you, and showing you why we believe you are in error is not attacking you. 

and you've made your point.  Continuing to belabor that point is rude.  You were out for 22 hour and choose to comeback in and start arguing with someone else.  You made your point very clear its enshined for all to read as many times as they want. you don't need to reply any more but you just can't stop.  Let talk about that.  Do you have a lot of unresolved issues in your life?

Edited by SkyJedi

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Hey folks, let's not take things personally that leads to the dark side...

Anyway Auto-Fire has been discussed since EotE first came out and it's one of the more cartoony rules in the system. It's not terrible but it can break or at least feel broken when it's combined with certain Mods and Talents, especially when used by Combat Monsters (TM) and high EXP PCs. So it's one of those RAW that is generally House Ruled to tone it down. My advice is use KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) when creating any House Rule which is why we approached it the way we did but also follow all the RAW when it comes to equipment and especially Encumbrance. People often wave ENC because they think it's too fiddly or doesn't make sense to them but it is an important balancing mechanism for dealing with heavily combat focused PCs. Essentially it keeps them from carrying all the things all the time and is why Talents like Burly (DC pg 32) exist. As a GM I don't personally check every PC's ENC but do tell my Players that they need to make sure they follow the RAW and if I notice a discrepancy during play I'll ask. Other things to keep in mind are the Setting and NPC reactions based on visible PC load outs, a PC hauling around a HBR or LRB is going to add some Setbacks in certain situations and this isn't nerfing or picking on any PCs, it's just part of the setting.

Anyway my point is there are lot's of ways to approach Combat Monsters (TM) and Auto-Fire.

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3 minutes ago, SkyJedi said:

and you've made your point.  Continuing to belabor that point is rude.

Excuse me, but HappyDaze brought up specific objections that I then refuted, and then proceeded throwing insults. So, please look to the one who actually started attacking people personally.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Excuse me, but HappyDaze brought up specific objections that I was refuting, and then proceeded throwing insults. So, please look to the one who actually started attacking people personally.

you replied to him, you enganged him.  seriously walk away

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4 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

Hey folks, let's not take things personally that leads to the dark side...

Anyway Auto-Fire has been discussed since EotE first came out and it's one of the more cartoony rules in the system. It's not terrible but it can break or at least feel broken when it's combined with certain Mods and Talents, especially when used by Combat Monsters (TM) and high EXP PCs. So it's one of those RAW that is generally House Ruled to tone it down. My advice is use KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) when creating any House Rule which is why we approached it the way we did but also follow all the RAW when it comes to equipment and especially Encumbrance. People often wave ENC because they think it's too fiddly or doesn't make sense to them but it is an important balancing mechanism for dealing with heavily combat focused PCs. Essentially it keeps them from carrying all the things all the time and is why Talents like Burly (DC pg 32) exist. As a GM I don't personally check every PC's ENC but do tell my Players that they need to make sure they follow the RAW and if I notice a discrepancy during play I'll ask. Other things to keep in mind are the Setting and NPC reactions based on visible PC load outs, a PC hauling around a HBR or LRB is going to add some Setbacks in certain situations and this isn't nerfing or picking on any PCs, it's just part of the setting.

Anyway my point is there are lot's of ways to approach Combat Monsters (TM) and Auto-Fire.

I'd like to thank you for a well thought out and non-confrontational post.  

Edited by SkyJedi

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12 minutes ago, SkyJedi said:

 I get you don't agree with me, thats abundantly clear. You've made your point. Whats your end game? am I suppose to agree with you unconditionally and bow down before your vastly superior intelligent?  

 

"your ideas are better than mine?" are ya happy now?

What? :huh:

13 minutes ago, SkyJedi said:

Jury rig is fine, I don't see that as the problem.  and nerfing jury rig would effect a massive amount of other talents.  In my head It broken part is the non escalating risk/reward on autofire.

 

So...you came here presenting a house rule, talking of "exploits." I thought that the Jury-Rigged issue was the actual impetus, since that is commonly seen as an exploit. If the impetus is autofire itself, then the problem is lucky rolls, not exploits. And there's no reason for me to begrudge my players their high-Advantage rolls.

I don't pretend that my ideas are better than anyone's. But you kept replying to my replies, so I thought we were discussing. Was that not the case?

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2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

What? :huh:

So...you came here presenting a house rule, talking of "exploits." I thought that the Jury-Rigged issue was the actual impetus, since that is commonly seen as an exploit. If the impetus is autofire itself, then the problem is lucky rolls, not exploits. And there's no reason for me to begrudge my players their high-Advantage rolls.

I don't pretend that my ideas are better than anyone's. But you kept replying to my replies, so I thought we were discussing. Was that not the case?

Your absolutely right, how could I have been so wrong

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I agree that auto-fire is a problem and something needs to change.  I like your idea fine, @SkyJedi, but give it a try for a session or two and see how it plays.  I think for some characters in my group, it would have made auto-fire too risky to use, while for our main gun-guy, it wouldn't have slowed him down much (though some slowing was very much needed).

If I ever run FFG SW again, I'm tempted to completely remove the multi-hit capability of auto-fire and trade it for something more narrative.  For example, you could spend the advantage to suppress a minion group, causing them to risk getting hit with the weapon's base damage if they roll any threat on their skill checks until your next turn.  Guess I'd have to figure out how that kind of change would impact the talents that are in the game, too.  Uhg, those rules-light narrative RPGs my buddies like are looking better all the time.

Honestly, auto-fire didn't need to exist.  They could have just given those weapons a bit better damage score and been done with it.  Also, why can't I hit more than once with a regular blaster if a single combat check can represent multiple shots?  I guess with minion groups you sort of get multiple hits because of the way the damage overflows into the next minion, but if that's intended to model multiple hits then I'm back to just making auto-fire weapons +X damage against minion groups or something.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled internet argument!

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@SkyJedi am I understanding that you think auto-fire in itself is broken?  No talents, mods, etc.  Just auto-fire?  If so, I haven't heard that argument before.  Most folks complain about auto-fire combined with something else.  Usually jury-rigged.

If that's the case, then what about changing auto-fire to be: You may make more than one attack roll.  Determine the number of attacks that you wish to make, then increase (maybe upgrade) the difficulty of each attack by one for every additional attack you have chosen to make.  So for example if you decide to attack 3 times you increase (upgrade?) all three attacks by 2.  Just an idea.

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19 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

@SkyJedi am I understanding that you think auto-fire in itself is broken?  No talents, mods, etc.  Just auto-fire?  If so, I haven't heard that argument before.  Most folks complain about auto-fire combined with something else.  Usually jury-rigged.

If that's the case, then what about changing auto-fire to be: You may make more than one attack roll.  Determine the number of attacks that you wish to make, then increase (maybe upgrade) the difficulty of each attack by one for every additional attack you have chosen to make.  So for example if you decide to attack 3 times you increase (upgrade?) all three attacks by 2.  Just an idea.

Yes, you're correct that I think that autofire is the broken point in the equation.  Your solution is really close to my in the original OP.  I love the upgrade idea, and I hadn't thought about multiple rolls for one attack.  It would be super representative of taking a bunch of shots.  I like how the increase of number of hits increases the Risk for the entire attack too.  Hmm I'll have to put that in the ole thinker and ponder it for a bit.

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35 minutes ago, FuriousGuy said:

I agree that auto-fire is a problem and something needs to change.  I like your idea fine, @SkyJedi, but give it a try for a session or two and see how it plays.  I think for some characters in my group, it would have made auto-fire too risky to use, while for our main gun-guy, it wouldn't have slowed him down much (though some slowing was very much needed).

If I ever run FFG SW again, I'm tempted to completely remove the multi-hit capability of auto-fire and trade it for something more narrative.  For example, you could spend the advantage to suppress a minion group, causing them to risk getting hit with the weapon's base damage if they roll any threat on their skill checks until your next turn.  Guess I'd have to figure out how that kind of change would impact the talents that are in the game, too.  Uhg, those rules-light narrative RPGs my buddies like are looking better all the time.

Honestly, auto-fire didn't need to exist.  They could have just given those weapons a bit better damage score and been done with it.  Also, why can't I hit more than once with a regular blaster if a single combat check can represent multiple shots?  I guess with minion groups you sort of get multiple hits because of the way the damage overflows into the next minion, but if that's intended to model multiple hits then I'm back to just making auto-fire weapons +X damage against minion groups or something.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled internet argument!

That's the other option, remove it completely.  But it's starwars and crazy half Jedi monks can blast 8 stormtroopers away with a single turn.  

I guess I want that challenge, to make a character good enough to do that and get lucky enough to do it once in my RP career. It shouldn't happen all the time but when it does I want that "I can't believe that happened!" Response

But if you think about it upgrading twice for two extra shots in the right setting is moving two purple to two red.  In the right pool that risk is manageable

 

Thanks for your post, I appreciate you

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1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

I only allowed a tripod to equal supported.  It's a houserule so GMs taste.

Another thought I had bandied about was just not allowing Aim on Autofire.  That takes away a couple Boosts and takes True Aim off the board.

Fair enough. 

Could also allow Weapon Harness and Burly to add to the Brawn characterisitic for the purposes of max auto fire shots. Would seem thematic too. 

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On 7/4/2017 at 8:08 AM, SkyJedi said:

All of these are really good suggestions but they lack the risk/reward aspect.  They still have the problem of allowing massive damage turn after turn with no repercussions.

Its doesnt work Narratively in my mind.  I guy can't just step out with a big gun and now down the competition without exposing himself to attack, endangering is comrades, or risk damaging his gear.

Well there is always the risk that the guy with the really big gun that just mowed down half of the opposition is now THE primary target for any and all return fire.

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2 hours ago, Arrakus said:

Fair enough. 

Could also allow Weapon Harness and Burly to add to the Brawn characterisitic for the purposes of max auto fire shots. Would seem thematic too. 

Again, whatever works for people.  I personally think Burly is too accessible, but the point is lots of people have issues with how autofire works, and lots have their own solutions.

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17 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Again, whatever works for people.  I personally think Burly is too accessible, but the point is lots of people have issues with how autofire works, and lots have their own solutions.

Agreed.

Debatable. (Only one tree has it and it costs exp to get)

Agreed. 

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9 hours ago, FuriousGuy said:

Honestly, auto-fire didn't need to exist.  They could have just given those weapons a bit better damage score and been done with it.  Also, why can't I hit more than once with a regular blaster if a single combat check can represent multiple shots?  I guess with minion groups you sort of get multiple hits because of the way the damage overflows into the next minion, but if that's intended to model multiple hits then I'm back to just making auto-fire weapons +X damage against minion groups or something.

To be honest, pistols and other "single shot" blasters do have the ability to hammer  on minion groups.  In my game, one player cleared half a dozen minions with a pistol in one attack.  Straight damage took out 2, then enough advantages and triumphs to crit 4 more times, finishing the group.  We were all rather stunned when it happened, cause it had been the first roll with a pistol good enough to off more than 1 or 2 minions.  He got some boost dice to intimidate the remaining crew members on his next action.

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We're currently running with a house rule that Jury Rigged cannot be used to reduce advantage cost of Autofire to below 2 advantage. Can still be used in all other cases.

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1 hour ago, Edgookin said:

To be honest, pistols and other "single shot" blasters do have the ability to hammer  on minion groups.  In my game, one player cleared half a dozen minions with a pistol in one attack.  Straight damage took out 2, then enough advantages and triumphs to crit 4 more times, finishing the group.  We were all rather stunned when it happened, cause it had been the first roll with a pistol good enough to off more than 1 or 2 minions.  He got some boost dice to intimidate the remaining crew members on his next action.

Am more than willing to be wrong, but I think you can only crit once per hit?

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3 hours ago, Darzil said:

Am more than willing to be wrong, but I think you can only crit once per hit?

Maybe we've been houseruling, but we rule each activation of crit against minions kills a minion.  Against rivals and nemesis, additional activations add 10 to the crit roll.

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