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Quad Battery Turrets spoiler

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12 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yeah, I had presumed AA for all the same reasons...

I'd love the patches for the vic if they patched what was needed... 

It doesn't need better guns or really all that much turning ability and even adding the defensive ability to add ECMs with Tua, while my favorite of the current patches, isn't all that necessary...

It needs an option for speed 3...

Either a title, an Offensive retro that let's you add a speed, or an officer that grants support teams to take ETs..... but it needs something. 

Every other ship in the game can reach speed 3 either though natural speed chart or ETs... the Vic is literally the only ship in the game stuck at speed 2, and that's what cripples it...


 

"Cripples" I think is a relative term in that regards.

Yes, a whole bunch of other ships can reach speed 3 with ETs....    But do you consistently see those upgrades on those ships?

That to me states that Speed 2 isn't in and of itself absolutely crippling...  It still has some deadly long range firepower, and some awesome carrier capability... Sounds a lot like an MC80 Command with a 30% Discount to me :D

I had more issues with its turning capacity, and yes, JJ fixed that somewhat.  Now its Long range has the potential to be even long-range-deadly...  And it can pick up firepower agaisnt everyone that is faster than it.

 

Even if the applicable theory was speed 2=death, speed 3=life, then Quad Battery Turrets changes that thought pattern immensely.

We're going to see more slow-rollers overall...  Not just Vics, but ISDs and MC80s as well...  Perhaps even Peltas...   Ships that are going to intend to move slowly and slug things out.

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11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

"Cripples" I think is a relative term in that regards.

Yes, a whole bunch of other ships can reach speed 3 with ETs....    But do you consistently see those upgrades on those ships?

That to me states that Speed 2 isn't in and of itself absolutely crippling...  It still has some deadly long range firepower, and some awesome carrier capability... Sounds a lot like an MC80 Command with a 30% Discount to me :D

I had more issues with its turning capacity, and yes, JJ fixed that somewhat.  Now its Long range has the potential to be even long-range-deadly...  And it can pick up firepower agaisnt everyone that is faster than it.

 

Even if the applicable theory was speed 2=death, speed 3=life, then Quad Battery Turrets changes that thought pattern immensely.

We're going to see more slow-rollers overall...  Not just Vics, but ISDs and MC80s as well...  Perhaps even Peltas...   Ships that are going to intend to move slowly and slug things out.

Sure, we'll see it, and then it will disappear when people remember Mc30s Arc dodge like madmen, and that slow ships are bomber fodder... and then I think we're back to our usual 2xsmall&fast+ 3xflotillas and 134 of bombers shredding ships like vics...

Adding a single blue, while neat for ships like the Mc80 which desperately need it for long range rerolls, will never fix the VIC.... I just don't see how it could.

The best outcome imperial side, from what I can see, may be adding these to a 4x kitten fleet.... 4x (3 red 2 blue) is a **** good long range roll for 59 points EA.... add vader for rerolls some Gozantis and swarm fighters.... 

 

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3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Adding a single blue, while neat for ships like the Mc80 which desperately need it for long range rerolls, will never fix the VIC.... I just don't see how it could.
 

Unless we're talking about an Assault Cruiser...  There is one die difference between the Vic and the MC80 at long range.

Why does one *desperately need* and the other doesn't?

 

Because, we know, Vader is hardly popular in the first place...

 

Or are we breaking down into the actual specifics of Ackbar and not much else ?

 

 

I mean, that' sjust how I see it on the Raw of it, with no other upgrades (other than leading shots) in play...  Just comparing the raw speed stats of a Speed 2 MC80, and a Speed 2 Victory, with Quad Batteries...   There's a one die and 30 odd percent discount in cost for very similar capabilities.

Then, when you do start adding upgrades - you start to see how both diverge into two separately capable classes.

Edited by Drasnighta

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1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Sure, we'll see it, and then it will disappear when people remember Mc30s Arc dodge like madmen, and that slow ships are bomber fodder... and then I think we're back to our usual 2xsmall&fast+ 3xflotillas and 134 of bombers shredding ships like vics...

Adding a single blue, while neat for ships like the Mc80 which desperately need it for long range rerolls, will never fix the VIC.... I just don't see how it could.

The best outcome imperial side, from what I can see, may be adding these to a 4x kitten fleet.... 4x (3 red 2 blue) is a **** good long range roll for 59 points EA.... add vader for rerolls some Gozantis and swarm fighters.... 

 

I'm going to play 2 Vic II with GT, LS, Quad Turrets, DC and some officer this weekend. I'll show you the true power of Vic patches when I win. Or I'll get swarmed to death by small ships or bombers. Or my dice will fail me. I'll be sure to report back what happens since a lot of people are excited for the changes.

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25 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

"Cripples" I think is a relative term in that regards.

Yes, a whole bunch of other ships can reach speed 3 with ETs....    But do you consistently see those upgrades on those ships?

That to me states that Speed 2 isn't in and of itself absolutely crippling...  It still has some deadly long range firepower, and some awesome carrier capability... Sounds a lot like an MC80 Command with a 30% Discount to me :D

I had more issues with its turning capacity, and yes, JJ fixed that somewhat.  Now its Long range has the potential to be even long-range-deadly...  And it can pick up firepower agaisnt everyone that is faster than it.

 

Even if the applicable theory was speed 2=death, speed 3=life, then Quad Battery Turrets changes that thought pattern immensely.

We're going to see more slow-rollers overall...  Not just Vics, but ISDs and MC80s as well...  Perhaps even Peltas...   Ships that are going to intend to move slowly and slug things out.

I'm fully on board with the "Need for Speed" Vics. Speed 3 would be great because it allows the Vics to stay alive. The most common reason they die is because they can't escape arcs or ranges effectively, even with JJ. 

So yes, speed 2=death, speed 3=life.

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Just now, Undeadguy said:

I'm fully on board with the "Need for Speed" Vics. Speed 3 would be great because it allows the Vics to stay alive. The most common reason they die is because they can't escape arcs or ranges effectively, even with JJ. 

So yes, speed 2=death, speed 3=life.

As someone who allowed opponents to Playtest Engine Techs on Victories.....

...  didn't make a lick of difference in that regard.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Or are we breaking down into the actual specifics of Ackbar and not much else ?

Pretty much this, Akbar has been a laughable opponent on MC80s up to this point at long range just because people roll so bad with reds... with LS and quads, he's looking like he has some teeth....

As for Mc80s not running Akbar, I've yet to see a successful version? Maybe Sato? or used as a carrier, but without either being able to ET away/ Arc dodge, or deliver an Akbar hit they're kinda meh... at least as far as I've experienced.

I use Vader all the time, but I don't use Vics....

Victories are not meant to be long range gunners, they're designed to be destroyers, in the mix, they have the shields, the hull, and the medium/close range guns to boast that preference... using them at long range seems wasteful at best... especially after the release of the kitten...

3 red no rerolls, limited at speed 2, crummy turning radius for a minimum of 73 points? 

I just don't see the magic. Maybe, at speed 3 or an ET to speed 3, I could rummage some enthusiasm, as they'd be a mini ISD.... but for their cost, their ability just doesn't shine for me...


 

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Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

but for their cost, their ability just doesn't shine for me...
 

All's relative.

It does a lot of things - you gotta use all of it, or of course, you're better off with multiple other things...

To me, the irony of the situation is you list how it could be like a Mini-ISD...  And that itself, if we are to go by a chunk of discussions on this forum - isn't a positive place to be, since a lot of people are clamoring for Tectors without Squadron capacit for they're cheaper...  

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Pure stats wise (dice/hull/shields/slots), the vic is one of, if not the, best/most efficient ship in the game. Being hard capped at speed 2 is what keeps it nice and balanced. Speed three would, IMO, make it a little too strong, and would cut into the ISD's place in the game.

Every other flaw the ship has can be fixed, or built around. Turns like a brick? Not with Jerry. Never get to brace? Theres an answer for that Tua. Only getting one real good shot at close? Ex Racks up the damage. Slow roller needing to make that long range shot count? Disp Caps reaches out and tags someone.

The vic functions now as a carrier, as area denial and as artillery. It can be your chin if you need it to. Its a fine generalist ship that can be built to service multiple roles.

It just doesn't get to be fast, too.

 

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

All's relative.

It does a lot of things - you gotta use all of it, or of course, you're better off with multiple other things...

To me, the irony of the situation is you list how it could be like a Mini-ISD...  And that itself, if we are to go by a chunk of discussions on this forum - isn't a positive place to be, since a lot of people are clamoring for Tectors without Squadron capacit for they're cheaper...  

Something I'd clamor for too.... all those points wasted in the cost for the ISD for it to be a carrier.... I'd rather just have moar guns or cheaper cost. lol

 

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3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:


Victories are not meant to be long range gunners, they're designed to be destroyers, in the mix, they have the shields, the hull, and the medium/close range guns to boast that preference... using them at long range seems wasteful at best... especially after the release of the kitten...

Before this wave, I would agree with the gist of this. I think Disp Caps on a two gives you a very real artillery piece, that still functions as area denial after you've expended your one-shot upgrade. You can add from there.

 

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I've begun to find some success with a pair of Vic 1 with Vet Gunners and DTT playing a defensive game. They're still tough nuts to crack, especially if they can basically camp an objective spot.  I'm definitely thinking Quads as an alternative to DTT. 

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1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Before this wave, I would agree with the gist of this. I think Disp Caps on a two gives you a very real artillery piece, that still functions as area denial after you've expended your one-shot upgrade. You can add from there.

 

Which is one of the things that really irritates me about this whole "patching" the VSD idea in the first place....

FFG is trying to find the best way to skin the cat, they've added defenses, they're allowing it to shoot blue at long range, adding dice for it being slow, when what they could have done to fix the whole freaking problem is just GIVE IT SPEED 3....

Give the darn thing speed 3, it does all the stuff you posted above, and can move into position as a solid attack piece.... 

Would it be undercosted? A bit, maybe? It depends which slot is sacrificed to gain the ET ability or speed 3....

We're all looking at the VSD going... "yeah, the issue is it's slow, these patches make it better without breaking the game", but I'm not convinced speed 3 would really make this thing too powerful, I think it's even out it's value...

speed 2 is the noose, FFG can keep lowering the rope, but the VIC's feet ain't touching the ground... as far as I can tell lol

 

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Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

Which is one of the things that really irritates me about this whole "patching" the VSD idea in the first place....

FFG is trying to find the best way to skin the cat, they've added defenses, they're allowing it to shoot blue at long range, adding dice for it being slow, when what they could have done to fix the whole freaking problem is just GIVE IT SPEED 3....

Give the darn thing speed 3, it does all the stuff you posted above, and can move into position as a solid attack piece.... 

Would it be undercosted? A bit, maybe? It depends which slot is sacrificed to gain the ET ability or speed 3....

We're all looking at the VSD going... "yeah, the issue is it's slow, these patches make it better without breaking the game", but I'm not convinced speed 3 would really make this thing too powerful, I think it's even out it's value...

speed 2 is the noose, FFG can keep lowering the rope, but the VIC's feet ain't touching the ground... as far as I can tell lol

 

I posted on this above. I think giving it speed three has a real chance of cutting deeply into the ISD's design space.

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I have deployed the Victories many times and have yet to loose a single game with them. Speed is not that important if you know what you are doing and using your squadrons and support ships properly. Even several victories supporting each other is very deadly.

The Quad Turbolaser Battery upgrade is definitely good on the Victory, especially on the Victory II, but the other one can benefit from it as well.

You have to concentrate on the Objective and Victory fleets generally like to play Second player but with the right support work well as first player too.

Tarkin certainly like Victory fleets as do Konstantine.

I think that Victory fleets MIGHT not be too hot in tournament since it might be hard to beat opposing fleets by a large margin due to slow speed. But they certainly work great if your only goal is to deny the enemy the "victory". ;)

 

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2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Which is one of the things that really irritates me about this whole "patching" the VSD idea in the first place....

FFG is trying to find the best way to skin the cat, they've added defenses, they're allowing it to shoot blue at long range, adding dice for it being slow, when what they could have done to fix the whole freaking problem is just GIVE IT SPEED 3....

Give the darn thing speed 3, it does all the stuff you posted above, and can move into position as a solid attack piece.... 

Would it be undercosted? A bit, maybe? It depends which slot is sacrificed to gain the ET ability or speed 3....

We're all looking at the VSD going... "yeah, the issue is it's slow, these patches make it better without breaking the game", but I'm not convinced speed 3 would really make this thing too powerful, I think it's even out it's value...

speed 2 is the noose, FFG can keep lowering the rope, but the VIC's feet ain't touching the ground... as far as I can tell lol

 

Essentially, if its anything but a Title, then its basically free to be used Elsewhere as well - that is a big Games Design Consideration in giving the Victory Engine Techs...

Depends on the slots - I mean, you could say "Medium Only" and  "Offensive Retrofit Sacrifice!" and then the Interdictor gets Speed 3...   "Gunnery Team Sacrifice!", and lo and behold, you have Speed 4 Quasars...  Those are not neccessarily bad things - but they could be unintended without testing first...

Maybe we'll see it come a Title update/refresh...  But as a generic upgrade available through another expansion - there's a lot to consider first.

 

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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Well from a thematic setting the VicII should essentially have speed 3 and only the VicI should be speed 2. VicII had their engines replaced so it would become as fast as any other cruiser. But what should that ship cost in points?

The VicI was not really meant for engaging in maneuver warfare but as a planetary assault platform. The VicI was usually escorted by other cruisers to support it.

 

Edited by jorgen_cab

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3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Essentially, if its anything but a Title, then its basically free to be used Elsewhere as well - that is a big Games Design Consideration in giving the Victory Engine Techs...

Depends on the slots - I mean, you could say "Medium Only" and  "Offensive Retrofit Sacrifice!" and then the Interdictor gets Speed 3...   "Gunnery Team Sacrifice!", and lo and behold, you have Speed 4 Quasars...

Maybe we'll see it come a Title update/refresh...  But as a generic upgrade available through another expansion - there's a lot to consider first.

 

 


(Turbolaser)
Engine Power Reroute

(nav) After you execute a speed-2 maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver. You cannot perform another maneuver this activation.

8 points



Possible ships it could effect:

VSD (intended target)
ISD (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)
ARQ (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)(can already ET)
MC80  (sacrifices it's turbo)(can already ET)
MC80L  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)(can already ET)
AFM  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)
MC30  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)
NEB  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)(can already ET)
CR90  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)(can already ET)
HammerHD  (sacrifices it's turbo, can already reach sp3)


As far as I'm concerned I don't see how it could be abused, and it would bring the VIC into the fight.... cutting turnos for speed, at 8 points more than makes up for any cost issues...

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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17 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I posted on this above. I think giving it speed three has a real chance of cutting deeply into the ISD's design space.

I think this is necessary, the ISD is a point dump. Having a smaller,weaker, more vulnerable version would enable ISD players such as myself to have a viable attack option other than another ISD....

As things stand the ISD/ARQ/DEMO just don't fulfill that roll

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34 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Pure stats wise (dice/hull/shields/slots), the vic is one of, if not the, best/most efficient ship in the game. Being hard capped at speed 2 is what keeps it nice and balanced. Speed three would, IMO, make it a little too strong, and would cut into the ISD's place in the game.

Every other flaw the ship has can be fixed, or built around. Turns like a brick? Not with Jerry. Never get to brace? Theres an answer for that Tua. Only getting one real good shot at close? Ex Racks up the damage. Slow roller needing to make that long range shot count? Disp Caps reaches out and tags someone.

The vic functions now as a carrier, as area denial and as artillery. It can be your chin if you need it to. Its a fine generalist ship that can be built to service multiple roles.

It just doesn't get to be fast, too.

 

I want my ship to do everything. Stop denying me this.

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I'm sorry, but I read through that, and feel that you've just developed the Cluster Bombs of the Turbolaser Slot.

Even given that's availability, I don't think many would take it at all...  Sure, it accomplishes the goal, but its so niche that its not going to see play.

Might as well be a Title, at which point, it can wait until we have Title Refreshes :D

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47 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

As someone who allowed opponents to Playtest Engine Techs on Victories.....

...  didn't make a lick of difference in that regard.

 

 

I haven't done it though. Player skill makes a big difference. 

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Just now, Undeadguy said:

I haven't done it though. Player skill makes a big difference. 

Totally agree.

That's why, rather than me, Mister Statistically Abysmal, be the one doing it - I let my suite of opponents, from newbs to experienced Victory players try it, while I watched capabilities from the other side.

Its not a perfectly unbiased scientific test (sample size is still low), but I wanted to see how it would perform when people were given the option to do so - and it gave me a less biased, open opinion of it.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

I'm sorry, but I read through that, and feel that you've just developed the Cluster Bombs of the Turbolaser Slot.

Even given that's availability, I don't think many would take it at all...  Sure, it accomplishes the goal, but its so niche that its not going to see play.

Might as well be a Title, at which point, it can wait until we have Title Refreshes :D

The only reason people have to lean so heavily on the turbolaser slot right now is they know the only shots they're getting in are long range. Remove that as a certainty, 3 red/3 blue even without a turbo upgrade, is still mean, I'd fly the hell out of Vics if they could do this. They still have the Ion slot, they're still both gunners and carriers.... speed 3 makes a big difference. 

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