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Rafrox

Lord Hawthorne doubt

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Hi guys, sorry if the doubt is silly, however I am just trying to understand some of the basics of the game:

1) if I add Lord Hawthorne as a figure within my Spearmen how does it work? I mean, I should add the card "Lord Hawthorne" to my unit (and the figure for sure) and every time I assign a melee attack to my Spearmen it will trigger Lord Hawthorne ability to add one more white die?

2) Also, Lord Hawthorne card says "after you perform a melee attack you may do another melee attack to a unit has not been targeted..." does that mean that Spearman need to be engaged to 2 enemies to perform the second attack? 

3) finally, when performing a melee attack with Spearmen+Lord Hawthorne, am I still able to use Spearmen ability to use 2 surges to receive an inspiration token?

Cheers

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     1. The lord Hawthorne card works just like any other upgrade card with 2 differences. When you add the upgrade to a unit, since it is a figure upgrade(denoted by the silhouette and defense stats) you must slot the corresponding figure into the units front rank. Also, when the figure is destroyed the upgrade is discarded.

     2. In order to make a melee attack the target unit must be engaged with you.

     3. Yes, the Hawthorne upgrade gives you benefits it does not take anything away. Do what the card says not what it doesn't say.

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11 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

     1. The lord Hawthorne card works just like any other upgrade card with 2 differences. When you add the upgrade to a unit, since it is a figure upgrade(denoted by the silhouette and defense stats) you must slot the corresponding figure into the units front rank. Also, when the figure is destroyed the upgrade is discarded.

     2. In order to make a melee attack the target unit must be engaged with you.

     3. Yes, the Hawthorne upgrade gives you benefits it does not take anything away. Do what the card says not what it doesn't say.

Thank you very much. Although doubt still remain on question 2. Does that mean that my Spearmen unit will need to be engaged to 2 enemies in order to activate "...u may do another melee attack to a unit has not been targeted..."? Again, thank you very much.

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6 minutes ago, Rafrox said:

Thank you very much. Although doubt still remain on question 2. Does that mean that my Spearmen unit will need to be engaged to 2 enemies in order to activate "...u may do another melee attack to a unit has not been targeted..."? Again, thank you very much.

Here is the order for attacking with that ability.

1.) Resolve intitial attack. This triggers the ability.

2.) Chose whether or not to make another attack. It's a "may" ability so you don't have to trigger it.

3.) Choose a valid target. A target needs two meet two criteria to be considered valid. 1. Be engaged with you(it's a melee attack) 2. Hasn't been targeted by your melee attack previously this activation.

4.if a valid target is found, perform a melee attack against it. This will trigger the ability again so repeat steps 2-4 as many times as necessary.

When there is no more valid targe for your melee attack move on to the next activation.

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1 hour ago, Orcdruid said:

Here is the order for attacking with that ability.

1.) Resolve intitial attack. This triggers the ability.

2.) Chose whether or not to make another attack. It's a "may" ability so you don't have to trigger it.

3.) Choose a valid target. A target needs two meet two criteria to be considered valid. 1. Be engaged with you(it's a melee attack) 2. Hasn't been targeted by your melee attack previously this activation.

4.if a valid target is found, perform a melee attack against it. This will trigger the ability again so repeat steps 2-4 as many times as necessary.

When there is no more valid targe for your melee attack move on to the next activation.

I still disagree there can be more than 2 attacks total (but I can see how it can go either way), the 'this activation' bit is likely opposed to this round, so dispatch runner shenanigans are fine, and bookkeeping reduced. 

 

After you perform a (melee), you may perform a (melee) against another target that has not been targeted by your (melee) this activation.

AND

As well as 83.8:  :An 'After' event occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for [problem words]that instance of the event[/problem words].

 

With that in mind we have this

[specified event/trigger]After you perform a (melee), [/specified event] [after event] you may perform a (melee) against another target that has not been targeted by your (melee) this activation. [/after event]

But this all depends how you choose to parse 'that event' so I can see both sides.  I'd love Hawthorne to be able to swing 4 times (likely right before he dies in that case), given I fly Daqan as is and you are already being outplayed and likely all but dead at that point, but I don't see it.   It depends which is that event,  is it the 'after event', or the specified event.  If it is the specified, attack until your heart aches, if it is the after event, twice.  I'd like to be wrong, because the more badass Hawthorne is, the better. 

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1 hour ago, Orcdruid said:

@Darthain performing a melee attack is the trigger for the event. The ability then lwta you perform another melee attack. That attack is seperate from the first therefore a new instance.

The issue is the triggered event, per an after, as I read it, cannot trigger the same event.  An after event is 'that event' .  It would be much easier if they wrote the specified event cannot trigger it again or the after event cannot trigger it again, then this would be quite clear.  Precedent to the other games lines, keywords typically happen once, not create chains.

Edited by Darthain

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I don't see it as a big problem when using the unit upgrade.

It really becomes a problem when he's by himself and has the Sweeping Strikes upgrade.

I really doubt that they intend it to chain given that sweeping strikes is only 5 points.

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1 hour ago, stet2 said:

I don't see it as a big problem when using the unit upgrade.

It really becomes a problem when he's by himself and has the Sweeping Strikes upgrade.

I really doubt that they intend it to chain given that sweeping strikes is only 5 points.

Sweeping strikes isn't actually that powerful because the units need to be in range 1. That isn't very far.

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1 minute ago, Orcdruid said:

Sweeping strikes isn't actually that powerful because the units need to be in range 1. That isn't very far.

It's a hell of a lot more powerful than needing to be in base contact plus its range 1 all the way round not just front arc, so if you flank with him you can have quite a few targets.

5 points to me seems about right for 1 additional attack any more than that and it's hugely undercosted.

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10 minutes ago, stet2 said:

It's a hell of a lot more powerful than needing to be in base contact plus its range 1 all the way round not just front arc, so if you flank with him you can have quite a few targets.

5 points to me seems about right for 1 additional attack any more than that and it's hugely undercosted.

If he is surrounded enough to get more than 2 attacks then what are the chances he survives the next few rounds? Sweeping strikes is only 5pts because the cost to use it is being surrounded and ultimately destroyed.

Edit: Besides, he's a hero he should be a little bit undercosted.

Edited by Orcdruid

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26 minutes ago, stet2 said:

It's a hell of a lot more powerful than needing to be in base contact plus its range 1 all the way round not just front arc, so if you flank with him you can have quite a few targets.

5 points to me seems about right for 1 additional attack any more than that and it's hugely undercosted.

Sweeping strikes is only front edge counts.

rwm06_card_sweeping-strikes.png

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8 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Sweeping strikes is only front edge counts.

rwm06_card_sweeping-strikes.png

That just means neither count as Flanking.

It doesn't state that the range 1 is measured from Hawthorne's front edge. It's every enemy unit in Range 1 of any Part of Hawthorne's base but the attack is treated as though Hawthorne's front edge is squared up with the enemy unit's front edge (provided they're not already touching in which case the actual contact edges are used).

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9 minutes ago, stet2 said:

That just means neither count as Flanking.

It doesn't state that the range 1 is measured from Hawthorne's front edge. It's every enemy unit in Range 1 of any Part of Hawthorne's base but the attack is treated as though Hawthorne's front edge is squared up with the enemy unit's front edge (provided they're not already touching in which case the actual contact edges are used).

No, it is every enemy within 1 of Hawthornes front edge can be attacked in melee, in addition to anyone he is engaged with normally, per normal rules.  Not all the way around. You are correct in that flanking bonuses need not apply.

 

Edit: Note further the illustration, the sword is conveniently drawn in the arc affected.

rwm06_diagram_sweeping-strikes.png

Edited by Darthain

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I was going by the wording which could be interpreted both ways. If you include that picture it makes it look as though it's enemy units in range 1 and LOS as the graphic seems to indicate the firing arc is required.

However, this could solely be due to the 2 enemy units shown being in the position they are in the diagram so it's still not definitive in my mind;

Especially as a unit can be within range 1 of Hawthorne's front edge but out of Arc and the fact that Arc is usually only used for ranged attacks.

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13 minutes ago, stet2 said:

I was going by the wording which could be interpreted both ways. If you include that picture it makes it look as though it's enemy units in range 1 and LOS as the graphic seems to indicate the firing arc is required.

However, this could solely be due to the 2 enemy units shown being in the position they are in the diagram so it's still not definitive in my mind;

Especially as a unit can be within range 1 of Hawthorne's front edge but out of Arc and the fact that Arc is usually only used for ranged attacks.

I don't believe LoS is required (as it doesn't specify), actually, but you would need to measure from front edge regardless, I suppose theoretically you can measure across your own tray behind you (chances are anything that close engaged you anyway, although 1 is slightly longer than a tray. Is it really still using your front edge at that point?  Feels wrong.  

 Personally I think arc matters, but not LoS.  

Edited by Darthain

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I'm always hesitant to make judgements on card wording based solely on an illustrative picture.

Partly because one picture can't cover every situation and partly because I've seen so many errors in pictures.

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11 hours ago, Darthain said:

The issue is the triggered event, per an after, as I read it, cannot trigger the same event.  An after event is 'that event' .  It would be much easier if they wrote the specified event cannot trigger it again or the after event cannot trigger it again, then this would be quite clear.  Precedent to the other games lines, keywords typically happen once, not create chains.

How big a chain could you possibly create? Two? Three if you're some kind of template maneuvering god?

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I'd also like to introduce evidence Exhibit: Uthuk

rwm22_cardfan_unit_berserkers.png

Note the wording "Limit twice per [melee]"

The presence of a limitation here and the complete absence of a limitation on Hawthorne would seem to indicate that the ability has no ceiling.

Indeed, the wording noting separate instances of attack would seem to indicate that the designers quite intentionally made it so Hawthorne can essentially perform one melee attack against each target.

Moreover, having played against Hawthorne several times, as his opponent I do not see this ability as being overpowered when compared to other hero abilities.

Again... good luck chaining more than three. Three would be impressive, even.

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41 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'd also like to introduce evidence Exhibit: Uthuk

rwm22_cardfan_unit_berserkers.png

Note the wording "Limit twice per [melee]"

The presence of a limitation here and the complete absence of a limitation on Hawthorne would seem to indicate that the ability has no ceiling.

Indeed, the wording noting separate instances of attack would seem to indicate that the designers quite intentionally made it so Hawthorne can essentially perform one melee attack against each target.

Moreover, having played against Hawthorne several times, as his opponent I do not see this ability as being overpowered when compared to other hero abilities.

Again... good luck chaining more than three. Three would be impressive, even.

Doesn't say after/before/when/ defined keyword timing. These cases are not actually related.

Edited by Darthain

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6 hours ago, Darthain said:

Sweeping strikes is only front edge counts.

rwm06_card_sweeping-strikes.png

I see no reason that it should need to be measured from his front edge or have anything to do with line of sight, unless we're putting this under the problematic "ranged effect" category, but let's ignore that possibility for now.

Let's break it down:

  • "Your front edge is treated as touching the front edge OF..." - this is the effect of the ability. It does not change your position, it just lets you treat your front edge as touching the front edge of whatever meets the condition during a melee attack.
  • "...OF all enemies at range 1..." - Since we have no indication that this ability requires line of sight, here is the relevant rule: RRG 64.3, second bullet "When measuring range for a game effect that does not require line of sight, a player chooses the two points (one on each component) that are closest to each other—this will ensure that the measurement determines the shortest range between the two components."
  • "...that you are not engaged with." - This prevents Hawthorne from being treated as if he's touching multiple sides of an enemy, which probably isn't necessary but does keep the rules cleaner.

The condition for treating your front edge as touching the enemy's front edge is just that the enemy be at range 1 and not engaged with you. There is no facing limitation in any of the rules surrounding the interaction, so you are in fact required by the rules to measure from the closest point which could VERY plausibly be on his side or back edges.

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3 hours ago, Darthain said:

Doesn't say after/before/when/ defined keyword timing. These cases are not actually related.

All melee attack abilities that aren't stated otherwise fall under the "when" timing rule, as stated under Abilities.

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