Juke Tie/sf - viable or stupid?

[Calibri Garamond 361]

I really dig this (probably stupid) list.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Zeta Leader" (20)
Predator (3)
Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Someone won a store championship with QD/BD/OL. Both QD and BD had Homing Missiles equipped. For the same points you could put Juke and Comm Relay on the SF:s. Vs. somthing without tokens, the damage output should be reasonably comparable to a Homing Missile (Homing, TL+Focus, vs 3 agi without tokens - exp. damage 2,6; 3 atk dice, TL+focus+juke vs 3 agility - exp. damage 2,4). Downside is that the defender will usually have a token for QD:s first attack. The upsides are that you get to do it turn after turn and it works just as well at range 1.

Juke has a nice synergy with QD:s ability. BD and Zeta Leader will almost certainly be attacking something without tokens. Comm relay is ofc necessary for this to work, but the upgrade in effect also adds an extra hull to the SF:s.

What do you think about this list (assuming I get lucky and don't have to play Wes, Palob or Teroch - because that would suck)? 

 

[j_man_04 944]

5 minutes ago, Calibri Garamond said:

I really dig this (probably stupid) list.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Zeta Leader" (20)
Predator (3)
Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Someone won a store championship with QD/BD/OL. Both QD and BD had Homing Missiles equipped. For the same points you could put Juke and Comm Relay on the SF:s. Vs. somthing without tokens, the damage output should be reasonably comparable to a Homing Missile (Homing, TL+Focus, vs 3 agi without tokens - exp. damage 2,6; 3 atk dice, TL+focus+juke vs 3 agility - exp. damage 2,4). Downside is that the defender will usually have a token for QD:s first attack. The upsides are that you get to do it turn after turn and it works just as well at range 1.

Juke has a nice synergy with QD:s ability. BD and Zeta Leader will almost certainly be attacking something without tokens. Comm relay is ofc necessary for this to work, but the upgrade in effect also adds an extra hull to the SF:s.

What do you think about this list (assuming I get lucky and don't have to play Wes, Palob or Teroch - because that would suck)? 

 

I'm not convinced on this idea. Expertise play to their strengths so much better, and is cheaper than Juke/Comm Relay. Not saying in certain circumstances it'd be great, but Expertise is just a beast.

[Zucch10 89]

Am I missing something?  How do you get evades on a SF?

[j_man_04 944]

3 minutes ago, Zucch10 said:

Am I missing something?  How do you get evades on a SF?

Hyperwave Comm Scanner passes them out during setup.

[jmswood 2,706]

5 points for a couple Evade-based upgrades is a lot to spend on a ship that can't get an evade token on its own. Add another point for Hyperwave Comm Scan to get the tokens for you. That's 11 points out of the whole list that could be spent to boost your offense and action efficiency in ways that naturally play to the TIE/sf's strengths.

@jwilliamson12 makes a great point about Expertise.

I prefer Predator for the TIE/sf. You can give both ships Predator for 6 points. With the rest of your points you could get Omega Leader with Juke and Comm Relay.

[gennataos 5,873]

3 hours ago, Calibri Garamond said:

I really dig this (probably stupid) list.

"Quickdraw" (29)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Backdraft" (27)
Juke (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Zeta Leader" (20)
Predator (3)
Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Someone won a store championship with QD/BD/OL. Both QD and BD had Homing Missiles equipped. For the same points you could put Juke and Comm Relay on the SF:s. Vs. somthing without tokens, the damage output should be reasonably comparable to a Homing Missile (Homing, TL+Focus, vs 3 agi without tokens - exp. damage 2,6; 3 atk dice, TL+focus+juke vs 3 agility - exp. damage 2,4). Downside is that the defender will usually have a token for QD:s first attack. The upsides are that you get to do it turn after turn and it works just as well at range 1.

Juke has a nice synergy with QD:s ability. BD and Zeta Leader will almost certainly be attacking something without tokens. Comm relay is ofc necessary for this to work, but the upgrade in effect also adds an extra hull to the SF:s.

What do you think about this list (assuming I get lucky and don't have to play Wes, Palob or Teroch - because that would suck)?

I was there for the store championship you're talking about, and that list won based on successful alpha strikes.  I'm not a Mathwing kind of guy, but I don't that your math is accurate.  I don't think a range 3 primary from a TIE s/f is going to be better than a range 3 HM, Juke or no Juke.

Edited July 3, 2017 by gennataos

[Goseki1 637]

I've tried it and it's fine until you come up against token stealers. Then you've wasted a ton of points. 

[Admiral Deathrain 5,232]

I love the idea, but the prevalence of Palob makes this too much of a gamble.

[Calibri Garamond 361]

8 hours ago, jmswood said:

5 points for a couple Evade-based upgrades is a lot to spend on a ship that can't get an evade token on its own. Add another point for Hyperwave Comm Scan to get the tokens for you. That's 11 points out of the whole list that could be spent to boost your offense and action efficiency in ways that naturally play to the TIE/sf's strengths.

@jwilliamson12 makes a great point about Expertise.

I prefer Predator for the TIE/sf. You can give both ships Predator for 6 points. With the rest of your points you could get Omega Leader with Juke and Comm Relay.

Do you use both predator and FCS or some other system upgrade? 

[Calibri Garamond 361]

5 hours ago, gennataos said:

I was there for the store championship you're talking about, and that list won based on successful alpha strikes.  I'm not a Mathwing kind of guy, but I don't that your math is accurate.  I don't think a range 3 primary from a TIE s/f is going to be better than a range 3 HM, Juke or no Juke.

Yeah you are correct, I forgot about the extra die at range 3. Still think the list has a respectable damage output. Actually had time to play a game with the list yesterday, vs. Rexler and 3 ties. In the first two rounds of combat, I killed Rexler and 2 ties (only taking minimal damage to BD in return), and that was game.

[jmswood 2,706]

4 hours ago, Calibri Garamond said:

Do you use both predator and FCS or some other system upgrade? 

Usually Collision Detector. FCS is great with Expertise, but I like to save the points for other things in my list. 

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:15 AM, jmswood said:

Usually Collision Detector. FCS is great with Expertise, but I like to save the points for other things in my list. 

FCS is far superior. If I were going to save points, I'd look into cheaper EPTs (Crack Shot, VI, A Score to Settle, etc...). Anything other than FCS on QD is criminal, and I personally feel Backdraft REALLY enjoys VI.

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

The new talent Intensity and comm relay could work very well on a TIE/sf. 

As this the only way to reliably and repeatedly get an evade, but at the same time excludes using Juke.

Edited July 5, 2017 by That Blasted Samophlange

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

35 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

The new talent Intensity and comm relay could work very well on a TIE/sf. 

As this the only way to reliably and repeatedly get an evade, but at the same time excludes using Juke.

In that instance, it's not really all that great, because they have a hard time flipping Intensity back over.

Without trying to feed Juke, there's really no point to trying to gimmick an Evade on them.

I recently ran a list that gave QD an Evade w/ Juke & Comm Relay, via Stridan in an Ups. Partnered with Pure Sabacc. Juke won me the game, but I'm not sure it was more effective than other builds. It helps a little bit with defense, because you cause them to spend their tokens early (or eat the damage), but you're doing a lot to set it up.

And, honestly, MVP that game was Stridan with Vader crew and excessive use of Coordinate...

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

Agreed, but in the right instance, Quickdraw benefits.  As it may keep his shields from being stripped off in one shot.   

Honestly, I like the idea of the TIE/SF sporting Intimidation.

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

17 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Agreed, but in the right instance, Quickdraw benefits.  As it may keep his shields from being stripped off in one shot.   

Honestly, I like the idea of the TIE/SF sporting Intimidation.

Super edge case, and one that has alternative (and more effective) methods of being achieved.

You lose too many MUCH better options for an EPT, though, and that's the bigger crime.

To each their own, of course, but it's generally not recommended to put points into something you can't benefit from on a reliable level. Darth Vader & Guri make interesting cases for Intensity, QD actively doesn't (having up to FOUR shots in a perfect round, or two in a less perfect round, that you'd want to mod means you won't be saving any tokens to ever flip Intensity back).

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

16 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Super edge case, and one that has alternative (and more effective) methods of being achieved.

You lose too many MUCH better options for an EPT, though, and that's the bigger crime.

To each their own, of course, but it's generally not recommended to put points into something you can't benefit from on a reliable level. Darth Vader & Guri make interesting cases for Intensity, QD actively doesn't (having up to FOUR shots in a perfect round, or two in a less perfect round, that you'd want to mod means you won't be saving any tokens to ever flip Intensity back).

There are undoubtedly better options, but an evade from intensity is far more reliable  than from any other source feeding an SF with Juke.   

Personally, as someone who only ever buys one of any given expansion, though the SF is strongly making me consider another one, I agree that Intensity has more efficient homes - Turr Phenir for one, as does Juke - I prefer it on Darth Vader or Omega Leader.

Were I flying against SF's with Juke, I would consider sniping those evades off of them, wasting that elite talent slot on Juke that can't be used.  

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

23 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Were I flying against SF's with Juke, I would consider sniping those evades off of them, wasting that elite talent slot on Juke that can't be used.  

The only way you can snipe it would be via Palob or Teroch, so a direct/hard counter. Otherwise, there's no way to force the opponent to spend the token, and they can treat it like X-Wings treat Integrated Astromech (often spending it at the last possible moment).

You'll get far more mileage out of Juke. The method you deliver the token to them... Meh. A TIE/fo used for blocking & feeding that Evade is an option, and Upsilons don't really use their Tech slots (and have two, if they were going to!), so there are definite options to feed Juke. And you'll get way more use out of Juke while you've got the Evade, as opposed to the one-off point of health Intensity likely provides.

... And losing your Intensity-given-Evade would be much the same, because the SFs aren't ever flipping Intensity back (barring lucky dice).

 

I'm not suggesting either is competitive, but Intensity is pretty hot garbage on an SF, but you CAN make Juke do some work. So it's, uh, slightly cooler garbage.

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

I am missing something about how the SF is getting such use out of an evade and Juke.   You can give it once during setup.   A lucky shot, not stealing a token, prevents any other use of juke.   Unless you take the damage and   Keep the Juke token.  Which seems counter intuitive (pun intended).

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

5 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I am missing something about how the SF is getting such use out of an evade and Juke.   You can give it once during setup.   A lucky shot, not stealing a token, prevents any other use of juke.   Unless you take the damage and   Keep the Juke token.  Which seems counter intuitive (pun intended).

You ALWAYS take the damage. You're not getting the Evade back, so there is zero value in spending it earlier vs later. Meaning it's only spent when it is a matter of life and death.

When playing Omega Leader, the HOME for Juke and Comm Relay, you should be doing the same -- until you absolutely need to avoid the damage (so death or a crit), OL will be much better off in the following round keeping the Evade token and soaking the damage. It's the only way you keep her remotely relevant in a combat setting, and it's how you max out mileage of Juke on an SF.

For QD, I might consider spending it if it'd avoid the last shield from going, but, honestly, I'd probably still lose the last shield, if I felt I was getting a solid revenge shot powered by Juke. Logic there is that QD is now less likely to be Public Enemy Number One (no shields, opponent has less to fear), and can still get some mileage out of Juke.

 

[Jo Jo 4,808]

Not Juke, but I think Intensity Quickdraw might be pretty good:

"Quickdraw" (29)
Intensity (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 38

 

He's pricey but should be pretty tanky. CR allows you to enter combat with focus/evade or maybe even double evade after a barrel roll.

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

49 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

Not Juke, but I think Intensity Quickdraw might be pretty good:

"Quickdraw" (29)
Intensity (2)
Fire-Control System (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 38

 

He's pricey but should be pretty tanky. CR allows you to enter combat with focus/evade or maybe even double evade after a barrel roll.

Except Comm Relay limits you to only One evade token.

[Goseki1 637]

Yeah but you could bank one evade on approach with Comm Relay and go in with a second from intensity, if you've been able to unexhaust it by then. 

[That Blasted Samophlange 6,923]

12 hours ago, Goseki1 said:

Yeah but you could bank one evade on approach with Comm Relay and go in with a second from intensity, if you've been able to unexhaust it by then. 

No, you cannot.  Comm Relay says these exact words:

You cannot have more than 1 evade token.

[Goseki1 637]

Oh hah, of course you're correct!