Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Just making sure I understand Yokuni's Action -- if I play Kazue as an attachment on another character, I can't copy that Action with Yokuni because it is not a triggered ability PRINTED on another Character, right? 

But if I give Yokuni Kazue as an attachment and then later give Yokuni Way of the Dragon as an attachment, can I use the Kazue ability a second time? Or no beause WotD only lets me use the character's abilities a second time and not those abilities that come from said character's attachments, right? 

The Dragon are TRULY becoming an enigma, LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timing is really going to be a thing with Dragon. It is with everything, but I think they will feel the effects of a mis-timed action more so than Lion or Crane.

Of course there are times to attack, but the Dragon very much feel like a counter-attack deck. (Which will be difficult if you go first and your opponent gets the last attack of the round). You'll want that fate back you have to spend to rings, usually meaning you will use abilities on defense so you can declare an attack and reclaim what you lost. You ability to straighten characters will help with counter attacks.

When do you play attachments from your hand? If you do it before a conflict is declared you may not get to pass first (for that extra fate to spend on attachments). If you try to wait until after you declare an attack, your opponent already gets the first play on defense - plus what ever else they do as you are busy powering up.

People worry about how short (in number of turns) a game can be, but holy hell each decision you make is very impactful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Exactly. Makes no sense. I mean, you can also put attachments on Doji Challenger to the same effect, so why the Fate discrepancy?

To be fair : In this particular case, the difference is more stark because Doji Challenger seems to be better than almost all characters we've seen so far, when it comes to stat totals for the cost, plus having a decent ability at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair : In this particular case, the difference is more stark because Doji Challenger seems to be better than almost all characters we've seen so far, when it comes to stat totals for the cost, plus having a decent ability at the same time.

 

Possibly. I just used the example provided already. Your point about "over-costing initially based on future investment" still stands on it's own. ;)

Edited by Bayushi Tsubaki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yeah, this is one of the things that worry me about Dragon's main mechanic / theme. Game designers tend to give characters that *can* become beasts with a 2-3 card investment crappier stats for their costs in order to try and balance things out. Problem is, paying 4 for a 3/3 is..not good. Yes, if you put 2 attachments on him, he becomes very good to great, but now you've spent 3 cards and probably 4-6 fate, plus possibly one more Fate to keep him around for a Turn.

That doesn't necessarily make them less good; it just means they're less straightforward than some other clans.  Clans like Lion or Crane will either perform slightly above average or slightly below average, depending on the luck of the draw.  Clans like Dragon will either perform far above average or far below average for the same reasons.  Now, it could very well be that with the cards available they perform far below average more often than not, but it could just as easily be that they perform far above average more often than not.  The fact that they'll tend to be further from the average doesn't make them worse; just more complex (and not necessarily a deck I would start a new player off with).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

Dragon is shaping up to be the clan I wish I were smart enough to play -- So. Many. Moving. Parts!

Heh. I am not a clever man or at least, I'm terrible at tactical gameplay (*terrible* at chess, for instance).

I've rarely even been a truly good L5R player, let alone great, even though I played for all but a couple of years of the CCG's history.

There were many 'arcs' in the CCG where Dragon were an absolute mess of too many moving parts with little to no real effective synergy, and so only the best players could win with them at major tourneys. Yet, I always persevered. 

In this game, it looks like Dragon will likely be one of the harder clans to play well, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. 

Edited by Togashi Gao Shan
Too many 'heh's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Kanpeki said:

Just making sure I understand Yokuni's Action -- if I play Kazue as an attachment on another character, I can't copy that Action with Yokuni because it is not a triggered ability PRINTED on another Character, right? 

But if I give Yokuni Kazue as an attachment and then later give Yokuni Way of the Dragon as an attachment, can I use the Kazue ability a second time? Or no beause WotD only lets me use the character's abilities a second time and not those abilities that come from said character's attachments, right? 

The Dragon are TRULY becoming an enigma, LOL!

Yokuni can only copy an ability printed on a character.  Kazue only has the action when played as an attachment, and the ability is not printed on the character, so he may never copy Kazue.

However - Way of the Dragon is not restricted to printed abilities, but I don't think we know if an ability on an attachment counts as "their" triggered ability or the items...  So it could go either way.  IF you can combo Kazue and WotD we're seeing some real power unlock...  Ascetic Visionary could steal 2 fate and straighten twice... that sounds amazing ^_^  Or Raitsugu could steal fate and duel twice and be Super Kill Guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dragon are going to want card draw for sure...  I wonder how much honor they would be willing to give up for it...

Also - Why is everyone thinking Doji Challenger's ability is so great?  Granted you can use it to prevent your opponent from saving a defender, but it's not THAT great of an ability...  Against a polarized clan like Lion it can be powerful as you can invite their best warrior to a political battle, bowing them before they can join a military defense...  But how many people on the Dragon clan would you want to add against you?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the ability... but I think it's situationally good at best, and potentially completely useless depending on your opponent's deck.  It allows you to exploit a weakness, but it isn't really a strength in itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

FFG mentioned they would put a played game up online for us to watch and that we get to vote on which clans. I honestly want Dragon vs. Lion or Crane. I want to see how the developers have the Dragon move around the military/political might of those clans.

I'd vote Dragon vs Mantis, but the colors may get a bit confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

FFG mentioned they would put a played game up online for us to watch and that we get to vote on which clans. I honestly want Dragon vs. Lion or Crane. I want to see how the developers have the Dragon move around the military/political might of those clans.

I'd love it to be Dragon v Crane. Lion won't have the control elements that are strong against voltron-units the way Crane will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

To be fair : In this particular case, the difference is more stark because Doji Challenger seems to be better than almost all characters we've seen so far, when it comes to stat totals for the cost, plus having a decent ability at the same time.

I would caution against doing a straight comparison of card cost versus utility across factions.  The relative card worth needs to be evaluated within the context of the faction's entire card pool (i.e. what tricks are in play to make the faction more cost efficient).  I'm not saying FFG has always been perfect at costing cards in the past, but I feel like we've fallen in this specific trap many times before and declared a faction or individual card overpowered prematurely.

Edited by phillos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, phillos said:

I would caution against doing a straight comparison of card cost versus utility across factions.  The relative card worth needs to be taken within the context of the faction's entire card pool (i.e. what tricks are in play to make the faction more cost efficient).  I'm not saying FFG has always been perfect at costing cards in the past, but I feel like we've fallen in this specific trap many times before and declared a faction or individual card overpowered prematurely.

I don't think it is a good balancing strategy to give the clan personalities with average stats and add 1 over the top guy to equalize. Makes the game more random/ luck of the draw dependent.

Edited by BordOne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I agree that this character is that over the top.  That feels like a hyperbolic reaction to me, but maybe I'm wrong.  Who knows.  We don't even have the full rule set yet (let alone the rest of the card pool) :)

In my experience the real problem cards are not characters that are efficiently (or even overly efficiently) costed since they are obvious and can be played around.  the more troublesome stuff are effects that allow you to bypass cost or remove (or neutralize) an opponents large purchase.  Their value tends to be more nebulous and problematic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This clan is just...so much more interesting to me than Lion and Crane.

Crane and Lion seem like the "starter set" clans. Hopefully, the other 4 clans have similar complexity to Dragon. 

Gotta admit, I was super nervous after the Lion spoilers because of how bland they were, but this reveal has definitely reinforced my optimism for the game :D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, phillos said:

I'm not sure I agree that this character is that over the top.  That feels like a hyperbolic reaction to me, but maybe I'm wrong.  Who knows.  We don't even have the full rule set yet (let alone the rest of the card pool) :)

In my experience the real problem cards are not characters that are efficiently (or even overly efficiently) costed since they are obvious and can be played around.  the more troublesome stuff are effects that allow you to bypass cost or remove (or neutralize) an opponents large purchase.  Their value tends to be more nebulous and problematic. 

With the full card pool we can tell for sure. Right now she has highest stats in the game for 3 drop with strong ability. From my games whenever Crane draws a lot of her they just tend to win. 

I don't know about the second part. The active cards are always stronger than reactive cards and ultimately the ones shaping the metagame.

Edited by BordOne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doji Challenger's ability is much stronger than it would seem, just because of the two types of conflicts and because defenders bow. It is extremely flexible, and often makes assigning defenders into a 'no good options' type of scenario. It's one of those things that you sort of have to play with to really appreciate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...