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Genesys OGL?

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3 hours ago, glewis2317 said:

I really do hope they get something worked out. This game will live or die based on the community. The more freedom the community has to use this system the longer it will survive and the more healthy it will be.

Exactly! While a few source books will be interesting, I don't think it can sustain a brand, and with the Star Wars rpg line (probably) coming to a conclusion*, other avenues of growth will be needed.

5 hours ago, kaosoe said:

Keith did mention in his last Pateron update that he talked to Sam during GamerNation Con a few weeks back and it's something that FFG is trying to hammer out. So it sounds like it is something on FFG's minds, they just want to make sure they get the legalities hammered out before they move forward.

Hmmm... HMMMMMM...... Stay tuned, I guess?

* Saying this because all the million careers have their own books, there can always be a few additional splat books and adventure modules, but it seems to be ramping down, although there's always the outside chance that a New Trilogy set of core books come out, which would be pretty nutty.

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1 minute ago, Swordbreaker said:

How many game systems actually have an open license though? I did some Googling, and the only one I could find is WotC's d20 after 3E, which didn't even carry over for 4E.

A lot of people conflate "open gaming license" with "market where I can sell my fansplats".

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13 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

How many game systems actually have an open license though? I did some Googling, and the only one I could find is WotC's d20 after 3E, which didn't even carry over for 4E.

As of right now, Dungeons & Dragons has an open gaming license. You are free to create 5E content for distribution on sites like DivethruRPG and RPGNow, as well as print. You cannot use their artwork or the text from the D&D books for your projects. They do, however, provide a system reference document with the rules available for 5E content. The SRD can be found at the WotC website. They also provide a publishing space in conjunction with One Book Shelf called Dungeon Masters Guild. That site is not OGL, but you can publish works that include some official Wizards’ art and content. I have published a couple of things on that site.

Here is a list of other games with an open gaming license or a OGL-like license.

Edited by Simon Retold

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3 minutes ago, Simon Retold said:

As of right now, Dungeons & Dragons has an open gaming license. You are free to create 5E content for distribution on sites like DivethruRPG and RPGNow, as well as print. You cannot use their artwork or the text from the D&D books for your projects. They do, however, provide a system reference document with the rules available for 5E content. The SRD can be found at the WotC website. They also provide a publishing space in conjunction with One Book Shelf called Dungeon Masters Guild. That site is not OGL, but you can publish works that include some official Wizards’ art and content. I have published a couple of things on that site.

Here is a list of other games with an open gaming license or a OGL-like license.

I'm surprised that Apocalypse World is not on that list!  That game spawned an entire genre of roleplay games (The Sprawl, Dungeon World, ect ect). The system, format, and general structure are all open for use (just not the word-for-word text of the original book), and there's been alot of great projects that came from it.

I hope Genesys goes the middle rout, allowing third party publishing of setting books, so scope and CRB dependency of RoT.

2 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

So not that many, relatively speaking, and little reason to think Genesys is going to go that route. Fascinating.

What makes you say that?

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2 minutes ago, dresdinseven said:

I'm surprised that Apocalypse World is not on that list!  That game spawned an entire genre of roleplay games (The Sprawl, Dungeon World, ect ect). The system, format, and general structure are all open for use (just not the word-for-word text of the original book), and there's been alot of great projects that came from it.

Yup. Here’s Vincent Baker’s opinion on the subject. It isn’t technically OGL, but it’s definitely open.

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I still say why would FFG bother with an OGL right off?  I wouldn't, it's obviously selling like hotcakes.  I wouldn't even consider it until after I have pushed my IP books out the door, fantasy, weird world war, cthuluish, near future/cyberpunk/secret agent-ish, far future space opera, is about what they have in house.  Contacts with Disney it seems to me it would be a hop skip n a jump to do a Marvel universe book, so then super hero.  Then, I might consider OGL, but not until I've hit all the major genre platforms with my own content.

Edited by 2P51

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13 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I still say why would FFG bother with an OGL right off?  I wouldn't, it's obviously selling like hotcakes.  I wouldn't even consider it until after I have pushed my IP books out the door, fantasy, weird world war, cthuluish, near future/cyberpunk/secret agent-ish, far future space opera, is about what they have in house.  Contacts with Disney it seems to me it would be a hop skip n a jump to do a Marvel universe book, so then super hero.  Then, I might consider OGL, but not until I've hit all the major genre platforms with my own content.

I agree with most of what you're saying. I don't expect that we'll see anything close to an OGL, until at least two or three setting books are released by FF. This is typical business thinking. However, I'm not sure it's the smartest thinking. This game may be selling like hot cakes for an RPG, but RPG's in general don't sell like hot cakes to begin with. Let's pretend FF does an OGL right away and some company comes along and releases something that takes off like Pathfinder did. I'm betting that this will only translate into more sales, of at least the Core Book, than it would have otherwise.

I could be wrong though.

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The hard part of this is that a lot of players are adapting scenarios that has their own Copyright. We aren't saying about real new content using the systema in 95% of the things, at least in this topic. It's cause we all love some games/movies that are popular and we want to play in these scenarios, like Harrypotter, Cyberpunk, Fallout, Lord of the Rings, etc. This kind of adaptation also receive more attention by other players who want to help and play.

How to deal with the Copyright of other companies?

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Quote

 

The hard part of this is that a lot of players are adapting scenarios that has their own Copyright. We aren't saying about real new content using the systema in 95% of the things, at least in this topic. It's cause we all love some games/movies that are popular and we want to play in these scenarios, like Harrypotter, Cyberpunk, Fallout, Lord of the Rings, etc. This kind of adaptation also receive more attention by other players who want to help and play.

How to deal with the Copyright of other companies?

 


 

That's kind of an obvious one. You literally can't take someone else's creative work and adapt it for your vision of a game, and expect to make a profit off of it. That is what falls into violation of copyright law. Even giving it away for free you are more likely to get a legal Cease and Desist from one of the holders of the Copyright, than a green light to go ahead, look at the Vampire the Masquerade fan made patch/content that would have fixed a lot of the problems of Bloodlines. OGLs don't and can't change the expected protections or rights of copywritten work and FanFiction only goes so far. 

Really if you want to publish your My Little Pony Genesys setting or Harry Potter or whatever else then you have one option. Approach the holders of the Copyright of that license and get legally binding permission. OGL isn't a carte blanche to violate copyright laws. 

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10 hours ago, Wulfborn said:

That's kind of an obvious one. You literally can't take someone else's creative work and adapt it for your vision of a game, and expect to make a profit off of it. That is what falls into violation of copyright law. Even giving it away for free you are more likely to get a legal Cease and Desist from one of the holders of the Copyright, than a green light to go ahead, look at the Vampire the Masquerade fan made patch/content that would have fixed a lot of the problems of Bloodlines. OGLs don't and can't change the expected protections or rights of copywritten work and FanFiction only goes so far. 

Really if you want to publish your My Little Pony Genesys setting or Harry Potter or whatever else then you have one option. Approach the holders of the Copyright of that license and get legally binding permission. OGL isn't a carte blanche to violate copyright laws. 

I know that, Wulfborn, but I've said this cause it'd be a problem if the Genesys became OGL, in my opinion. The fans would need to create new content, or disguise very well the things under new names, cause get an Open License to hit the face in the wall just after, would be... sad.

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36 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

I know that, Wulfborn, but I've said this cause it'd be a problem if the Genesys became OGL, in my opinion. The fans would need to create new content, or disguise very well the things under new names, cause get an Open License to hit the face in the wall just after, would be... sad.


You do know that OGL or not, violating copyright is violating copyright. Even if Genesys never went OGL, people publishing their take on the Fallout universe or whatever else are just as likely to get hit with a Cease and Desist as if it was not an OGL. Both are going to have the Copyright holder tell you to stop, or face law suits. Again, Fair Use/Fan Fiction only goes so far. 

An OGL is better in this situation because you can try to get the holder of the IP, such as Tolkien's estate, to greenlight your Genesys LOTR if it's well written and supported. The current one circulating the forums now can be taken down in a heart beat by a Cease and Desist from Tolkien's estate, OGL or not. And trying to "hide" it doesn't actually work in court. Harmony Gold's lawsuit concerning IP/Copyright theft against Harebrained Schemes, Piranha Games Interactive, and the holders of the Catalyst game license is a thing because of copyright law. PGI changed the designs of the mechs to something recognizable but still distinct from the "Unseen" of old, that Catalyst Games and Harbrained Schemes used in the physical copy of the game and the recent Battletech game that just launched, and this hasn't stopped Harmony Gold from filing a law suit. HBS was able to get it dropped by not using the two obviously contentious mechs and Catalyst was found at fault because they didn't respond at all, mainly because it was to Catalyst and not the actual company that owns them, but PGI hasn't backed down. 

So "Changing the names" will not work whether it is someone ripping off Genesys or you creating your "Not Fallout" setting if it is clearly Genesys or Fallout but called something else. People thinking they can just take stuff but change the terminology because "You can't copyright concepts" are hilariously mistaken if they think Asmodee or FFG won't take them to court, and probably win if nothing else by drawing out the case to the point you can't pay your lawyer so you don't have representation, much less actual law and case study, over ripping off their works for Genesys, or Bethesda or the Tolkien Estate or whoever else for their works. 

The reason that people have created and published LOTR stuff for the various iterations of D&D or the MLP RPG came out, is because they got legal permission to do so. 

People having to create their own works is not "Sad" as you put it. That's the only way that new things that are worth while get created. The Endless Clones/Copies/Iterations of existing material will never sell and people thinking they can be the next Pathfinder misunderstand what made Pathfinder what it is now. One company capturing lightning in a bottle doesn't mean someone else can do it as well by making a lazier attempt of what Pathfinder did. 

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I agree with you, but you are misunderstanding my idea. 

My point is: people must know that, if the Genesys became OGL, they will need to create new content instead of adapt things without authorization. Just it.

The "sad" side is if people forget this.

I have nothing more to say for now.

Edited by Bellyon

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On 5/3/2018 at 4:03 PM, dresdinseven said:

What makes you say that?

He’s probably saying that because

Not all that many games do it

Except for D&D, most of those games are extremely small press

When D&D did it for 3rd, it didn’t really have the effect they wanted

Instead, it led to the creation of their greatest competition

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Here is another option:

World of Darkness has created a Storyteller's Vault. This allows people to make fan based material but it is sold through White Wolf (I know they are owned by someone else but just using their name for ease of discussion). In this way, fans can get their stuff out there. White Wolf's IP is protected. Win win for all around. I am not sure about how much money the creator made, but it is an option to explore and allows for people to get published.

There is no need for an OGL in cases like that. 
 

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10 minutes ago, thedonnie said:

Here is another option:

World of Darkness has created a Storyteller's Vault. This allows people to make fan based material but it is sold through White Wolf (I know they are owned by someone else but just using their name for ease of discussion). In this way, fans can get their stuff out there. White Wolf's IP is protected. Win win for all around. I am not sure about how much money the creator made, but it is an option to explore and allows for people to get published.

There is no need for an OGL in cases like that. 
 

It isn’t OGL, but it requires a license all the same, and one that actually may be more complex than OGL. The Storytellers Vault is administered by OneBookshelf, the same people who do DM’s Guild for Wizards of the Coast, and I can assure you (from experience) that the license they place you under isn’t always a win for the small publisher. 

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19 minutes ago, Simon Retold said:

It isn’t OGL, but it requires a license all the same, and one that actually may be more complex than OGL. The Storytellers Vault is administered by OneBookshelf, the same people who do DM’s Guild for Wizards of the Coast, and I can assure you (from experience) that the license they place you under isn’t always a win for the small publisher. 

This may be true, but then that comes down to...do you want to publish to get profit or do you want to publish to get your name out there or do you want to publish for exposure for the system? If the first one is any part of your answer, then a ST vault may not be the best option for you but it may be the best way for FFG to maintain their IP.

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23 minutes ago, thedonnie said:

This may be true, but then that comes down to...do you want to publish to get profit or do you want to publish to get your name out there or do you want to publish for exposure for the system? If the first one is any part of your answer, then a ST vault may not be the best option for you but it may be the best way for FFG to maintain their IP.

If it's the second or third option, just putting it out there for free is going to be a better option. The biggest downside of the OneBookshelf is that anything published on that creator site is no longer owned by you. The rights to the work belong with OBS. They do it that way so anyone can build upon works done by others. The downside is that your idea is no longer yours, and you lose the right to say who can and cannot play in your sandbox. If you just make it available to the general public you still retain the rights to your written works, even if the price is 'free'.

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None of this sounds good for the future of Genesys.  Maybe I am just being pessimistic, but I don't see a lot of upside to being able to get things going for this wonderful system.  It's a shame FFG is not getting out and ahead of this to make sure the system does not lose momentum.  Lack of support/options will see it die on the vine.  :(

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On 5/17/2018 at 9:50 AM, GrumpyBatman said:

None of this sounds good for the future of Genesys.  Maybe I am just being pessimistic, but I don't see a lot of upside to being able to get things going for this wonderful system.  It's a shame FFG is not getting out and ahead of this to make sure the system does not lose momentum.  Lack of support/options will see it die on the vine.  :(

 

More Terrinoth, Android, Taunhauser, Dust, or Twilight Imperium only goes so far. Support for people to create their own content is what the system needs, which is where an OGL comes in.

I think that the problem with "momentum" as you put it, is that at the moment FFG is trying to push too much at the same time, you have the Legend of the Five Rings, Star Wars everything but especially X Wing 2.0, LotR Card Game, Android Card Game, Game of Thrones Card Game, Arkham Horror card game, and then other small projects that I am forgetting about. An OGL would allow the things that you see on Kickstarter (but I would never back) of people publishing or trying to publish, their own custom modules or adventures or settings or what have you for D&D 5E or Pathfinder. It would also take some of the pressure off of FFG due to the expectation and demand of new content if other people can or do do it. 

However something that the OGL or whatever comes out that people need to accept, or realize, is that they aren't going to be the next Pathfinder. the OGL or whatever FFG creates is likely going to be specifically worded to create that sort of thing from happening. Pathfinder was lightning in a bottle, and part of it did inspire people to publish their own game content, which is great. However, it also instilled people a belief that they can recreate Pathfinder which is not so great, because it has given people a mindset of trying to become the New Pathfinder through questionable or outright illegal activities. 

Do I think that Genesys needs an OGL or some way to get more content? Yeah, absolutely, you can't support this many different IPs and projects without something suffering for it; just look at Descent and Runebound. However I think that being pessimistic or Doom and Gloom because your interest isn't getting as much coverage as Star Wars is a bit much. 

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