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Genesys OGL?

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As of this time?

So nothing they can confirm because of their star wars line or persuading EA to let them prep a Mass Effect tie in?

 

(Yes wishful thinking on my part!)

Edited by copperbell

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8 hours ago, Gallows said:

That sucks. The only reasonable response is to "copy" their system as law permits and release a small OGL system for everyone to use, so people can just put Powered By Genesisripoff on their books instead.

There are many other reasonable responses.

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1 hour ago, CitizenKeen said:

There are many other reasonable responses.

Not if you want to use a similar dice system for a commercial game, which is the main reason to hope for OGL. Homebrew and free stuff will not be limited without OGL. :)

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Just now, Gallows said:

Not if you want to use a similar dice system for a commercial game, which is the main reason to hope for OGL. Homebrew and free stuff will not be limited without OGL. :)

You presuppose you should be able to sell your derivative work. I don't think that's a reasonable presumption.

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5 minutes ago, CitizenKeen said:

You presuppose you should be able to sell your derivative work. I don't think that's a reasonable presumption.

As long as you don't copy the text, names, icons etc. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but the text explaining them can. The only reason for an OGL is one of convenience in being able to use established terms.

Edited by Gallows

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Just now, Gallows said:

As long as you don't copy the text, names etc. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but the text explaining them can. The only reason for an OGL is one of convenience in being able to use established terms.

Thank you for explaining intellectual property law to me. But as an intellectual property lawyer turned software engineer, I assure you, you need not.

You stated there was only one reasonable response was to "copy". I pointed out that there are many reasonable responses. I would list among them first and foremost acknowledging that you are not entitled to profit off of the hard work of others, and maybe if you really want to release your Genesys fanfic into the wild, you do so without expecting to be paid for it.

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26 minutes ago, CitizenKeen said:

Thank you for explaining intellectual property law to me. But as an intellectual property lawyer turned software engineer, I assure you, you need not.

You stated there was only one reasonable response was to "copy". I pointed out that there are many reasonable responses. I would list among them first and foremost acknowledging that you are not entitled to profit off of the hard work of others, and maybe if you really want to release your Genesys fanfic into the wild, you do so without expecting to be paid for it.

A lot of great companies have been founded on the basis of copying others. Look into the case of the Bang game if you wish. That case showed truly how blantantly you can copy mechanics from a game. Ideas evolve because people steal, reuse and expand on ideas already in existence. The concept of the original idea is fun, but in reality ideas are derivative by nature and if copyright extended to ideas the world would be a pitiful place.

Entitlement is of no consequence, if someone creates a product people find interresting and want to buy, then it sells. It's fine if you have a moral point of view that it is wrong to steal ideas and change them to work in new ways. I disagree with you.

Edited by Gallows

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Why would FFG want to go to an OGL out the door on a generic system?  WOTC did it with D&D which was a specific to the fantasy setting and some of the reading I've done talks about how 3rd parties were able to beat them to the punch on setting ideas outside fantasy. 

FFG starting out with a generic system would be stupid I think financially to go OGL at launch.  Maybe after they've touched all the bases releasing major setting specific sourcebooks, fantasy, space opera, cyberpunk, hard sci fi, spy/hero, etc, but it would be dumb to do it at launch. 

Desktop publishing is too easy and they'd be competing with all kinds of folks right off.  When you look at some of the fan made stuff in Star Wars and how nice it is, it just seems like a no brainer to me that I'd keep the system in house for at least a few setting books before I went OGL, if I ever did.

Edited by 2P51

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@2P51 I do think you are right, although there are examples of systems with great success because people can freely use them. Another option would be licensing. Like the first dice pool systems changed RPGs so has FFGs system. We will see other systems using quite similar systems in the future, and I do think FFG could profit from their dice and core book at least being essential.

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1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

Why would FFG want to go to an OGL out the door on a generic system?  WOTC did it with D&D which was a specific to the fantasy setting and some of the reading I've done talks about how 3rd parties were able to beat them to the punch on setting ideas outside fantasy. 

FFG starting out with a generic systems would be stupid I think financially to go OGL at launch.  Maybe after they've touched all the bases releasing major setting specific sourcebooks, fantasy, space opera, cyberpunk, hard sci fi, spy/hero, etc, but it would be dumb to do it at launch. 

Desktop publishing is too easy and they'd be competing with all kinds of folks right off.  When you look at some of the fan made stuff in Star Wars and how nice it is, it just seems like a no brainer to me that I'd keep the system in house for at least a few setting books before I went OGL, if I ever did.

Hero did something interesting with 6th (another Universal system) - they had a very easy license.  You did have to check with them, so if they were planning to make a SF genre book, and your pitch was the same thing - they could deny - so the people that make the system got what they felt they needed (I don't know of that actually happening) - but if you wanted to use their system for a setting or an adventure, it was pretty easy to do so.  I would love to see something like that - so FFG would be able to have the books they want to release without direct competition, but other people could expand on the core stuff. That license also gave a bit of quality control - so the glut of mediocre product that helped cause the d20 crash wouldn't happen.

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1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

Why would FFG want to go to an OGL out the door on a generic system?  WOTC did it with D&D which was a specific to the fantasy setting and some of the reading I've done talks about how 3rd parties were able to beat them to the punch on setting ideas outside fantasy.

With WotC and the D&D 3.X OGL, a lot of that was them hoping that third party publishers would use it to create adventure modules to be used with D&D, rather than the glut of splat books of varying quality and plethora of campaign settings that actually occurred with the OGL.  Granted, there were some real gems in the mix, such as the Scarred Lands setting and Mutants&Masterminds, but there was an awful lot of chaff to wade through as well.

So I agree that FFG having a bona-fide OGL for Genesys right out the gate is unlikely.  That and it seems that for publishers these days there's more interest in having one's own in-house system than borrowing somebody else's.  Plus, with Genesys pretty much requiring specific dice only produced by one company, that cuts down on the interest of other companies to publish third party material for the system.

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1 hour ago, Lordmhoram said:

Hero did something interesting with 6th (another Universal system) - they had a very easy license.  You did have to check with them, so if they were planning to make a SF genre book, and your pitch was the same thing - they could deny - so the people that make the system got what they felt they needed (I don't know of that actually happening) - but if you wanted to use their system for a setting or an adventure, it was pretty easy to do so.  I would love to see something like that - so FFG would be able to have the books they want to release without direct competition, but other people could expand on the core stuff. That license also gave a bit of quality control - so the glut of mediocre product that helped cause the d20 crash wouldn't happen.

I have looked into publishing licensed material through Hero Games. Their initial licensing requirements were quite stringent with extensive rules on formatting, content, and layout. It was only after the game matured (lost popularity) that their layout requirements became very lax. I think that, should FFG be willing to accept external manuscripts for Genesys supplements, they will insist on their own layout and publishing to maintain a consistent tone between publications similar to the way that all their SW supplements have very similar appearances.

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On 11/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, CitizenKeen said:

Over on the big purple, someone reached out to FFG and their response was "no plans as this time".

Oh well.  Looks like we'll just chance it that the FFG legal team has better things to do than police the innertubes for homebrews.  My fantasy setting is go in 2018 regardless.

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56 minutes ago, Lorne said:

Oh well.  Looks like we'll just chance it that the FFG legal team has better things to do than police the innertubes for homebrews.  My fantasy setting is go in 2018 regardless.

Frankly, if people are putting the stuff out there for free (such as DarthGM plans to do with Fallout) and not lifting chunks of text out of the rulebook (i.e. they instead require the core rules and merely refer to them), then I would hope FFG finds a way to SHOWCASE homebrews similar to how Pinnacle does with Savage Worlds.  It allows them to extend the base demand for their core rules by having dozens of settings out there for play or as templates.  A generic core ruleset doesn't have much viability in 2017 if it doesn't have some sort of fan-driven support mechanism.

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If Genesys doesn't have any licensing options whatsoever then I'm going to ditch it and go with a custom dice system (one that uses standard gaming dice tbh). I know that FFG has vested interests in keeping a tight grip on their IP, but it really feels like a total slap in the face to go on and on and on about how much of a fantastic toolkit for GMs to make new stuff, then say "but don't you dare get ambitious with the legwork you put into our product".

Let's be frank about the fan projects so far, as fantastic as they are they are short. A few dozen pages, less if you take out the custom careers and skill trees.  These are not multi-hundred page tomes on the level of actual game releases . If you expect content creators to do art, editing, play testing, and put their own IP into lore, then give it for free (and probably with some loophole that FFG could just take it without even asking), then you're out of your mind.  If DarthGM does so and releases it for free, he truly is a living saint of board games, mad respect.

Personally, I plan to make a whole setting book. History, maps, gear, make-your-own-spaceships guides, deep lore, the works. But I'm not going to do that with no options of compensation (even a "minimum suggested donation of $0" model), and I'm especially not going to insult my work with by putting "Unofficial" and "Fan Creation" on the front of it as if it's just some fanfic which has to self deprecate/beg for mercy just to exist.

And before anyone balks at how entitled I might sound, please tell me why I'm a bad guy for wanting my name on the front of a physical book, or even simply wanting the option to do so.

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22 minutes ago, dresdinseven said:

If Genesys doesn't have any licensing options whatsoever then I'm going to ditch it and go with a custom dice system (one that uses standard gaming dice tbh). I know that FFG has vested interests in keeping a tight grip on their IP, but it really feels like a total slap in the face to go on and on and on about how much of a fantastic toolkit for GMs to make new stuff, then say "but don't you dare get ambitious with the legwork you put into our product".

Let's be frank about the fan projects so far, as fantastic as they are they are short. A few dozen pages, less if you take out the custom careers and skill trees.  These are not multi-hundred page tomes on the level of actual game releases . If you expect content creators to do art, editing, play testing, and put their own IP into lore, then give it for free (and probably with some loophole that FFG could just take it without even asking), then you're out of your mind.  If DarthGM does so and releases it for free, he truly is a living saint of board games, mad respect.

Personally, I plan to make a whole setting book. History, maps, gear, make-your-own-spaceships guides, deep lore, the works. But I'm not going to do that with no options of compensation (even a "minimum suggested donation of $0" model), and I'm especially not going to insult my work with by putting "Unofficial" and "Fan Creation" on the front of it as if it's just some fanfic which has to self deprecate/beg for mercy just to exist.

And before anyone balks at how entitled I might sound, please tell me why I'm a bad guy for wanting my name on the front of a physical book, or even simply wanting the option to do so.

You're not a bad guy. As long as you don't copy text from the genesys book you can freely get inspired by their ideas and make your own system, using similar dice or standard dice.  It's fine if people put stuff out there for free, but I fully understand that people want to sell their books if possible. If you copy the whole concept of genesys it's pointless, but if you use the idea, tweak it and transforms it into your own thing, it's fine. It's more than fine really - it's evolution and generate better games in the long run.

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2 hours ago, dresdinseven said:

Let's be frank about the fan projects so far, as fantastic as they are they are short. A few dozen pages, less if you take out the custom careers and skill trees. 

Partly a function of not knowing enough about the system. Presumably that gets fixed in a few weeks.

(see how I spared you all another rant about how close to the vest FFG is with system details? Not a single mention of how they should be marketing this... See, I'm the bad guy... )

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3 hours ago, dresdinseven said:

And before anyone balks at how entitled I might sound, please tell me why I'm a bad guy for wanting my name on the front of a physical book, or even simply wanting the option to do so.

You're not. Good luck with your custom dice system. You'll be missed.

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7 minutes ago, CitizenKeen said:

You're not. Good luck with your custom dice system. You'll be missed.

Well I'm not just up and leaving the Genesys community, you guys are too cool!  Its just that if FFG wants to exclude itself from people's personal projects, I'll just have to make due elsewhere.  Until I'm ready to publish something, Genesys is going to be my go-to game for weekly RPG sessions.

Heck, who knows, maybe I'm just being [super grumpy] over nothing.

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3 hours ago, dresdinseven said:

Let's be frank about the fan projects so far, as fantastic as they are they are short. A few dozen pages, less if you take out the custom careers and skill trees.  These are not multi-hundred page tomes on the level of actual game releases . If you expect content creators to do art, editing, play testing, and put their own IP into lore, then give it for free (and probably with some loophole that FFG could just take it without even asking), then you're out of your mind.  If DarthGM does so and releases it for free, he truly is a living saint of board games, mad respect.

Forget DarthGM and their hypothetical project (though, you know, I'm excited). The folks over at Red Shirt Down have already released a fantasy hack of Edge of the Empire, Sky Wars: Edge of the Kingdom. It's 130 pages of art, setting, layout, and really cool custom rules, not to mention all the custom careers and skill trees.

I do expect content creators to put stuff out for free, because they always do. Not all of them, but enough. I mean, if Barbarians of Lemuria can inspire an 80 page scifi hack, then I have no doubt that Genesys will have some truly awesome free content out there.

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6 hours ago, dresdinseven said:

If Genesys doesn't have any licensing options whatsoever then I'm going to ditch it and go with a custom dice system (one that uses standard gaming dice tbh). I know that FFG has vested interests in keeping a tight grip on their IP, but it really feels like a total slap in the face to go on and on and on about how much of a fantastic toolkit for GMs to make new stuff, then say "but don't you dare get ambitious with the legwork you put into our product".

You speak as if Open Licenses were the default, and they are not. I understand your frustration, and hope you can make your game, but FFG owes you absolutely nothing so that you can make settings for their game system and publish them. It is a fantastic toolkit  - for GMs making their games, just as HERO and GURPS have been for decades. Their intent doesn't seem to have it be a fantastic toolkit for people looking to publish.

I hope you do get your game published. We need more well designed games.

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On ‎19‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:38 AM, Gallows said:

@2P51 I do think you are right, although there are examples of systems with great success because people can freely use them. Another option would be licensing. Like the first dice pool systems changed RPGs so has FFGs system. We will see other systems using quite similar systems in the future, and I do think FFG could profit from their dice and core book at least being essential.

But you can achieve successes by having the games being tolerated by FFG without OGL?

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4 hours ago, Endersai said:

But you can achieve successes by having the games being tolerated by FFG without OGL?

I am not quite sure what you're asking or pointing out :)

I'm working on a big project myself, but it is not going to use Genesys or custom dice, although optional custom dice has been prototyped. I don't mind making free stuff for Genesys, and I'll keep working on my small Cthulhu project in my spare time. My point of view is not really personal, but just my opinion on the industry and what can make it evolve. 

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