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Mirith

Genesys: Possible Source of the L5R RPG

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Just now, Suzume Tomonori said:

In practice, does having to reference the chart appreciably slow the game down? Or does it get pretty quick / automatic after a while?

I don't know, sorry. I can only imagine it'll be slow at the start but as time goes on with practice it'll get picked up.

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3 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

@RandomJC What do the symbols mean, and which cancel which?

Well, that's the dice for star wars core book, so you're best bet is just reading that, but the quick and dirt version:

symbols-and-dice.png

 

Gensys changed it's symbols, but they are explained in the core.

The conversion for regular dice is in the core as well.

Edited by RandomJC

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6 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

In practice, does having to reference the chart appreciably slow the game down? Or does it get pretty quick / automatic after a while?

Here is a trick: print out the table, resized so that each cell is roughly as large as a dice. Roll your dice on this paper, so you can quickly assign dice to each cell and check the results easily.

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1 minute ago, Khudzlin said:

What do the full and hollow pips on the Force die mean?

Force die is a mechanic at start of game, roll one die for each player. count the white pips and that's how many force points the party has, and the black pips are the force points the GM has. They are spent in the game for either narrative effects or improving die rolls.

Like I give my players a force point from my pool to let the villain get away or make their check difficult.

 

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7 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Well, that's the dice for star wars core book, so you're best bet is just reading that, but the quick and dirt version:

symbols-and-dice.png

 

Gensys changed it's symbols, but they are explained in the core.

The conversion for regular dice is in the core as well.

 

Hmm, I can see some of those working to enable techniques.  For example, an Akodo Bushi could bypass armour on a Triumph, or a Bayushi bushi could cause their opponent to become disarmed if they have a despair.

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16 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I don't know, sorry. I can only imagine it'll be slow at the start but as time goes on with practice it'll get picked up.

Unless its something you remember well, I actually think it will always be slow.  At least in my mind, there is no easy mapping, and I know my group would have similar problems  The map where you put the dice isn't a bad idea, but it is still slow and awkward.

Edited by Mirith

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Just now, Mirith said:

Unless its something you remember well, I actually think it will still be slow.  At least in my mind, there is no easy mapping, and I know my group would have similar problems  The map where you put the dice isn't a bad idea, but it is still slow and awkward.

I would guess it's just something that as you get used to it becomes second nature. Without actually testing it out I can't say.

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1 minute ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

 

Hmm, I can see some of those working to enable techniques.  For example, an Akodo Bushi could bypass armour on a Triumph, or a Bayushi bushi could cause their opponent to become disarmed if they have a despair.

Pretty much, but without even needing to enable techniques. You get a despair while rolling in combat, you're opponent disarms you. At least how I've run my SW game so far.

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5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

 

Hmm, I can see some of those working to enable techniques.  For example, an Akodo Bushi could bypass armour on a Triumph, or a Bayushi bushi could cause their opponent to become disarmed if they have a despair.

A certain numberof advantage also actvates certain things i believe

Edited by Kuni Katsuyoshi

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9 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Force die is a mechanic at start of game, roll one die for each player. count the white pips and that's how many force points the party has, and the black pips are the force points the GM has. They are spent in the game for either narrative effects or improving die rolls.

Like I give my players a force point from my pool to let the villain get away or make their check difficult.

 

Hmm, interesting that there are more sides with black pips than with pips, but there are as many black as white pips in total.

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1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

Side thing. For those who don't want to buy new dice. Here's something for you.

 

1380768264595.jpg

 

 

A big part of me wants to reorganise that so the same number has the same result as much as possible.  Something like this:

  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Boost 0 0 A AA SA S            
Ability 0 A A AA SA S S SS        
Proficiency 0 SA A AA SA S S SS AA SA SS Tr
Setback 0 0 D D F F            
Difficulty 0 D D D F FF DF DD        
Challenge 0 DF D D F F DF DD DD FF FF Th

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59 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

In practice, does having to reference the chart appreciably slow the game down? Or does it get pretty quick / automatic after a while?

In practice, just using the dice is faster.

There's usually only four symbols you have to look at (the Force die is rarely rolled, and even then almost always by Force users, and as such can be ignored). All the good symbols are on white, green, and yellow dice. All the bad symbols are on black, purple, and red dice. That never changes. About 25% of your dice will be blank, as shown above, so they're instantly discounted. Each symbol is negated by its opposite, you you can just remove pairs and then see what's left.

The fifth and sixth symbols (basically crits and fumbles) only show up on the yellow and red dice, and they're the d12s, and they're typically the least-rolled dice (again, ignoring the Force die), and the crit/fumble symbols only show up 1/12 times on each (they're the "12" results in the table shown).

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40 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Hmm, interesting that there are more sides with black pips than with pips, but there are as many black as white pips in total.

That was a deliberate design choice specifically for the Force die. Force users (both Light and Dark) roll a number of Force dice to activate Force powers; the number of dice available depends on your experience with the Force (and thus XP spent). All black dots rolled are Dark Force available to you at the moment; all white dots are Light Force. Using the flavor of the Force opposite to your standing (Light/Dark) causes you damage, but you can still use your Force powers if you want (and the GM is encouraged, if the player/NPC keeps "crossing the streams" for many adventures, to work a conversion to the other side of the Force into their storyline).

With all Force dice being set up the way they are, the results from rolling a small handful of them is that the Dark Side is always freely available and tempting you to use it, while the Light Side is much more powerful when you find it. Which is exactly the flavor/mechanics balance they said they were looking for.

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55 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Unless its something you remember well, I actually think it will always be slow.

It's really not that slow once you try it. You'll normally only see four symbols (Triumphs/Despairs are very rare). Each good symbol is only on certain colors of dice; each bad symbol only on other colors. Once you learn to pair the four common symbols against their opposite, that's it, you've read the dice pool.

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2 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

It's really not that slow once you try it. You'll normally only see four symbols (Triumphs/Despairs are very rare). Each good symbol is only on certain colors of dice; each bad symbol only on other colors. Once you learn to pair the four common symbols against their opposite, that's it, you've read the dice pool.

Sorry to interrupt, even though we'll never agree on which dice system is better. However, I would like to know from which point of view are you expressing your opinion? Player or storyteller?

I'm simply curious, because I know that I'm better at number crunching than at symbol crunching. It's a mindset I have based on my domain of studies. Because I could agree with the system being interesting if I knew it wouldn't slow me down, but I do know it will slow me down, way more than adding numbers. My point of view is mainly from a storyteller side because I barely played.

I'm asking, because it's always easier to have good experience for a player than a storyteller...

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Just now, Crawd said:

Sorry to interrupt, even though we'll never agree on which dice system is better. However, I would like to know from which point of view are you expressing your opinion? Player or storyteller?

I'm simply curious, because I know that I'm better at number crunching than at symbol crunching. It's a mindset I have based on my domain of studies. Because I could agree with the system being interesting if I knew it wouldn't slow me down, but I do know it will slow me down, way more than adding numbers. My point of view is mainly from a storyteller side because I barely played.

I'm asking, because it's always easier to have good experience for a player than a storyteller...

I'm approaching it from both player and GM side. It's a great narrative tool for playgroups that want to expand shared storytelling but don't have the experience and/or confidence to do it yet without some dice rolls helping prod their imaginations now and then. The Advantage/Threat system helps give playgroups interested in adding a bit more narrative oomph additional hooks to inspire messing around with a scene than the more binary yes/no systems (like D&D) do with just a simple pass/fail. Sure, you can just narrate anything in response to a pass/fail situation if you're creative enough in any system, but that's not the way a lot of groups play (and that's fine, they should play the way they like).

Systems like FFG's house system, or Feng Shui, or even terrible old TORG (long may the stalengers fly!), give you some mechanical hooks to help inspire playgroups who want to have a bit more narrative flow between the GM and players learn how to do so. FFG's system gives you a list of simple things you can spend advantages/disadvantages on in any situation; the mistake in each one is thinking that you have to actually think up something cool with each dice roll to fully map out, say, a result of 2 Successes but 3 Threat.

A group interested in narrative-style play doesn't really need a system that gives them the tools; my local playgroups could probably ad-lib the result of missing the kobold by 3 on the d20 in D&D as well as figuring out what 4 Advantages gives you when the Wookie asks you to groom him. But even for us, a system that has additional mechanical hooks might spark a cool idea that we otherwise weren't thinking of. And for groups that want to try adding more narrative control of the story in player hands, the tools in these games help guide playgroups into a more shared scene-telling.

Again, nothing wrong with not wanting narrative playstyles in your games. Play what you like. But systems like D&D don't give a lot of mechanical bells and whistles to prod imaginations; you hit or miss. You succeed or fail. That's it. By all means improvise the scene if you have an idea, but the game cares not either way, and if you're not used to expanding shared control over the narrative, it can be weird to improvise that way for some groups.

In the Star Wars system, it openly encourages you to at least think of something interesting. You failed, but gained 3 Advantages. How can you fail an attack but come out ahead in some way? Can you think of something cool? Star Wars operates under the rules of cinematic awesome, so feel free to be a bit creative.

But if you can't think of anything within a few seconds, you shouldn't worry about it. A lot of your gear, talents, and skills in the game openly give suggestions, like "When using this, you can spend 2 Advantages to do that!" or "This weapon could be used to disarm an opponent if you get 3 Advantages" or "This blaster is less reliable, and even 1 Threat could cause it to need reloading". You don't have to use those suggestions. They're not mandatory. They're just that, suggestions. There's also the default list of just generic advantages/threat spending I mentioned above; if you literally just can't think of anything to spend advantage/threat on, give a bonus +white die to your buddy, or a nasty +black die to the next bad guy, and then keep on with the scene.

The point is not to paralyze playgroups with attempting to fill out every last advantage/threat point from each roll. You got a crushing Triumph critical success, but also got 6 Threat -- what could that mean? Was your great victory over your opponent secretly being watched by a friend who is now horrified at how violent you were? There's a plot point for the next story arc right there! Or you could think up anything else that fits. Or if nothing else, drop it; as in all RPGs, the dice are tools we use to randomize the story, not to control us.

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2 hours ago, Mirith said:

Unless its something you remember well, I actually think it will always be slow.  At least in my mind, there is no easy mapping, and I know my group would have similar problems  The map where you put the dice isn't a bad idea, but it is still slow and awkward.

My group is playing through our first Edge of the Empire campaign and we love the system. We haven't had the need to reference the symbols chart since our second session. We like that even successful checks can have drawbacks and failed checks can leave you with an advantage. 

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Seems like people better with words are putting up good arguments for the narrative symbols. As for the dice, my group just threw in for like 3 sets. We only use them for Star Wars so it's not a big deal to only have one pool of the dice. 

I find that this seemed to encourage us to care more about the 1 or 2 (rarely 3+) rolls that went on at the same time, and that everyone was way more invested in what other characters were doing.

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17 hours ago, Gaffa said:

[Snip]

The point is not to paralyze playgroups with attempting to fill out every last advantage/threat point from each roll. You got a crushing Triumph critical success, but also got 6 Threat -- what could that mean? Was your great victory over your opponent secretly being watched by a friend who is now horrified at how violent you were? There's a plot point for the next story arc right there! Or you could think up anything else that fits. Or if nothing else, drop it; as in all RPGs, the dice are tools we use to randomize the story, not to control us.

First of all. Thanks for the answer.

I removed the rest of the post to make it easier to read, but I kept the last part and explain why I really think that system is not good for me. I'm a cartesian type of person. In other words, I like to have a pretty good idea of where I'm going before doing something. So when I play a game, I do have a lot of stuffs prepared. And by a lot, I really mean a lot. Most of the time, my players are like: "I'm not sure if I want to pick that way because I don't know if you're prepared for it." and 90% of the time I already prepared something in that direction. So yeah, I do like to prepare a lot of stuffs and branching. Some people says that my games are build a little like a book "You are the hero" where everything is planed, no matter the direction they picked. So yeah, I'm rarely in a situation where I don't know what to do, because I have a lot of stuffs planned.

Knowing this and the fact that I rarely request dice rolls, most of the time, it's 4 to 6 rolls per game session, which are around 5 to 6 hours long. So these rolls are really important in my game, since most of them are story branching rolls. And they aren't binary branching, usually they have 4 to 6 outcomes. So yeah, maybe I'm over-preparing me game, but I do like doing it that way. So in those rolls, I prefer them to have to be deterministic, specially since I'm really prepared for it.

I will admit that I have adapted my game preparation to the R&K system because, despites it flaws, I really like the way it's done, because it's a huge random. I've seen people rolling 16 on 9k5 rolls while some others getting 57 on 3k2. So it can bring some epicness, specially since I'm not plaing the game "Success or Failure". I like to adapt the result based on the roll, so for me, the result aren't binary at all.

Like I've said in another post, I prefer numbers to symbols. I even hated the way universities are giving marks. "Hey look I've got an A in my class!" Even if I know that the average mark is B-, it's not always clear how well you performed to get an A sometime. I've got some A+ when being only 3 points above the class average score and some B while being 15 points above the average. So yeah, for me, symbols doesn't mean much. Of course, I could adapt myself, but reading a number is more natural for me, since I work in software engineering. Adding numbers from dice is pretty quick and natural for me.

That being said, I also said that I like the huge randomness of the system. Which is something that I don't see in the narrative dice. I even don't see it in D20 systems. Let's take the simplest roll for the narrative dice, 1 ability dice. The very best result is 2 success. Which is obtainable with a probability of 1 out of 8 rolls. In D20, the simplest roll is a D20, where the best possible result is 20, which is 1 out of 20 rolls. In R&K, the simpliest roll is 1k1 and the best possible result is indefinite. Of course, there's very low probability to roll 20+ on 1k1, but it's still possible never the less. I think that with that kind of randomness, it gives a better balance between the different difficulties, at least, for me and I can understand that not everyone feels the same way.

Quote

Again, nothing wrong with not wanting narrative playstyles in your games. Play what you like. But systems like D&D don't give a lot of mechanical bells and whistles to prod imaginations; you hit or miss. You succeed or fail. That's it. By all means improvise the scene if you have an idea, but the game cares not either way, and if you're not used to expanding shared control over the narrative, it can be weird to improvise that way for some groups.

I'll end up with this part of your post for one reason. For me, the system means a lot for an RPG. What I mean is, does the RPG is important enough to have its very own system or is it just an overlay for an overlay? You know, like most mobile games where they all play the same, but just the skin changes with a few changes in mechanism. That's what I'm seeing when I think of L5R using this "Genesys system", even though, there's no official words. I simply hate RPG using the very same system as another one, the only exception I have is when it's in the same universe where cross-play is possible like L5R and Legend of the Burning Sand.

For me, if a space pirate attacks with his plasma sword uses the same mechanics as a norvegian fighter attacks with his broadsword. And the norvegian fighter uses the same mechanics that a caveman attack a dinosaure with a club. And the caveman uses the same mechanics as a werewolf attacks with his claws. And the werewolf uses the same mechanics as a samurai attacks with his katana. And the samurai uses the same mechanics as a Musketeer attack with his sword. And so on, I will admit that I'm not very trilled at the mechanics. You can say it's a matter of perception, but for me, it's a matter of "How important the RPG is".

R&K having a unique system means that the company wants the RPG to be unique, a one of a kind, not a refurbished one. Just like 7th Sea felt like a reburbished RPG to me because it was using R&K. I've seen a lot of "copy/paste" RPG that doesn't live long because it's only an overlay to a core system. Is it what I want for L5R? No... While it works with SW, I don't think it may works with L5R because SW is enormous outside of the gaming world. SW was used with a D6 system, a D20 system and now narrative. However, when you speak so someone about SW, it's usually well known and they don't look at you confused. But do the same with L5R, I don't think you'll have the same reaction, usually people don't know what you're talking about.

When I take a look at every D&D setting, some are know, while some others aren't. Fprgotten Realms and Ravenloft are from the most known, but when you go deeper, there's some that I never heard of. Some returns as often as the Halley's commet. I don't want L5R to be part of that kind of treatment, I want L5R to be a complete and unique RPG.

Of course, it's only my opinion.

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I have a question

 

Why would anyone in their right mind want to throw out the beautiful and unique Roll&Keep system?

 

Not only is it brilliantly elegant, but it fits with the setting of L5R perfectly, and does an absolutely marvelous job of differentiating between reliability (boosting rolled dice) and potential (boosting kept dice), while also, allowing players to intentionally low-roll without needing extra ruling for such acts

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10 minutes ago, Notoryctemorph said:

I have a question

 

Why would anyone in their right mind want to throw out the beautiful and unique Roll&Keep system?

 

Not only is it brilliantly elegant, but it fits with the setting of L5R perfectly, and does an absolutely marvelous job of differentiating between reliability (boosting rolled dice) and potential (boosting kept dice), while also, allowing players to intentionally low-roll without needing extra ruling for such acts

Marketing minds operate differently from the rest of us ;)

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