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Genesys: Possible Source of the L5R RPG

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3 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Funny everyone of my three SWNDS games switched over to SAGA with great results after they got annoyed with the FFG game.

I have an abiding love of saga, but i occupies the same sort of design space as any d20 game, which is a real different one that the FFG games, and what this thread is basically highlighting: if you like narrative games, FFG's version tickles your fancy. if not, likely Saga was your jam. 

and saga is not without its problems. its wildly unbalanced between jedi and everyone else, and "move object" jedi and every other type of jedi. its also got a bit of the 3.5 bloat. i LOVE all the options but i mean, YOU CAN PHASE THROUGH WALLS WITH THE FORCE. like, thats kind of shenanigans. 

Edited by cielago

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Ah, yes, I remember that Jedi build where you picked tons of Visions and one-of-each power, and then used a Jedi Investigator perk to switch Vision (or Sense, or whatever that power was called) to anything else. 

Which mostly was Move Object, but versatility was god.

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45 minutes ago, cielago said:

I have an abiding love of saga, but i occupies the same sort of design space as any d20 game, which is a real different one that the FFG games, and what this thread is basically highlighting: if you like narrative games, FFG's version tickles your fancy. if not, likely Saga was your jam. 

and saga is not without its problems. its wildly unbalanced between jedi and everyone else, and "move object" jedi and every other type of jedi. its also got a bit of the 3.5 bloat. i LOVE all the options but i mean, YOU CAN PHASE THROUGH WALLS WITH THE FORCE. like, thats kind of shenanigans. 

O I in no way think that SAGA is perfect. It requires the GM to limit what powers are allowed in the game to keep it from getting out of hand. 

Edited by tenchi2a

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1 minute ago, tenchi2a said:

O I in no way think that SAGA is perfect. It requires the GM to limit what powers are allowed in the game to keep it from getting out of hand. 

out of curiosity, other than move object, whats on your "easy tiger" list? how did your nerf MO?

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Just now, cielago said:

out of curiosity, other than move object, whats on your "easy tiger" list? how did your nerf MO?

Well first let me say its been awhile since I ran it do to College. 

That said I tended to only allow powers and feats from the main book without approval. and anything else was on a show me it and give me a till next session to make a ruling. that gave me time to look up the power and see how it worked with other abilities. Now this did not always work but it did keep the issues down in my games. 

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In order to rev myself up for NDS L5R, I decided to take a second to think about character creation. I've used SW as base idea, because the thought of a one-size-fits-all system for L5R gives me gas.

1. I think the species section will be the bushi,courtier, shugenja selection with probably ninja and monks added. This would give you your base stats along with some other goodie, like bushi getting a free weapon skill point or somesuch.

2. The archetype section would clan based giving a skill selection based on clan flavor. Like Scorpions being tricksy, and the Lion knowing history and leadership.

3. Careers would be the 'schools',with probably 4 for each clan. 3 Standard and one flavor school like ise zumi.

 

Just a basic guess.   So, potetially possible, or stump stupid?

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4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

In order to rev myself up for NDS L5R, I decided to take a second to think about character creation. I've used SW as base idea, because the thought of a one-size-fits-all system for L5R gives me gas.

1. I think the species section will be the bushi,courtier, shugenja selection with probably ninja and monks added. This would give you your base stats along with some other goodie, like bushi getting a free weapon skill point or somesuch.

2. The archetype section would clan based giving a skill selection based on clan flavor. Like Scorpions being tricksy, and the Lion knowing history and leadership.

3. Careers would be the 'schools',with probably 4 for each clan. 3 Standard and one flavor school like ise zumi.

 

Just a basic guess.   So, potetially possible, or stump stupid?

its hard to gauge without seeing the new core. it talks about there being 4 archetypes in the article. we'll have to see how those are implemented. but off the top of my head, i'd say that if i were adapting star wars narrative dice to l5r, i'd do it that way. be interesting to see how genesys looks compared to SW. 

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2 minutes ago, cielago said:

its hard to gauge without seeing the new core. it talks about there being 4 archetypes in the article. we'll have to see how those are implemented. but off the top of my head, i'd say that if i were adapting star wars narrative dice to l5r, i'd do it that way. be interesting to see how genesys looks compared to SW. 

My biggest worry is an OA repeat. Where we spend a big chunk of the book 'stirring the flavor back in' like d20 Rokugan, or being stuck with generic flavorless rules in my favorite setting.

L5R deserves its own corebook, but we'll see.

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4 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

My biggest worry is an OA repeat. Where we spend a big chunk of the book 'stirring the flavor back in' like d20 Rokugan, or being stuck with generic flavorless rules in my favorite setting.

L5R deserves its own corebook, but we'll see.

the other possibility would be something like how onyx path did their nWoD (or whatever their calling them now) lines. they put out the core rulebook that covered the basic rules, and then the "core" rulebooks focused on the setting specific rules without having to reprint the basics. 

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49 minutes ago, cielago said:

the other possibility would be something like how onyx path did their nWoD (or whatever their calling them now) lines. they put out the core rulebook that covered the basic rules, and then the "core" rulebooks focused on the setting specific rules without having to reprint the basics. 

It just feels a little like a gouge paying 30-50$ for a core system,when they could just slip the 50-75 pages of relevant rules into its own book.

They difference with WoD was that ALL the rules were applicable across every game in the line making the seperate core useful.

Given L5R's very specific flavor very little of a Genesys core would probably end up being used.

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13 hours ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

I also understand that the FFG SW RPG is very successful and a lot of people like it. But the reasons people constantly cite for liking this system is precisely the reasons I dislike it. Just look at the discussion surrounding the dice in this very topic. As I said before, I detest these kinds of specialized dice, and the reason is that they take agency away from my hands, not only as a GM but as well as a player.

The FFG system no more removes agency from the hands of the GM or player than rolling a 1 to hit the kobold in D&D removes your agency to hit the little critter.

You are fine to not like the system because it's not your style, but if you're going to give reasons for it, at least make them sensible.

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I never understood why people praise the R&K ability to narrate rolling 25, 60, or even 10000 on TN 10 doors as heroic and as scalable as they want. This is going against the game, because it's non scaling with the result on purpose - you want the scaling, you Raise. Play Big or Go Home. For L5R vanilla rules, rolling 10 against TN 10 and rolling 2000 against TN 10 is identical, unless it was a Feint Attack. 

Basically, people are praising the game not only for the feature it doesn't have, they are praising it for a feature it explicitly defies and is built around the opposite of it - having to willingly increase your risk of failure in order to get any scaling done and being punished for not doing so by "wasting" any overflow (and thus, meaning that any investment you did in that ability, skill or whatever not paying for itself). It's a game that wants you to hit the numbers as exactly as possible. 

 

EDIT
Of course, you can homebrew the game any way you want, but praising the default rules and default game for something you need to explicitly homebrew in while actively going against the design intent is not saying much good about the game. 

Edited by WHW

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8 minutes ago, WHW said:

Basically, people are praising the game not only for the feature it doesn't have, they are praising it for a feature it explicitly defies and is built around the opposite of it - having to willingly increase your risk of failure in order to get any scaling done and being punished for not doing so by "wasting" any overflow. It's a game that wants you to hit the numbers as exactly as possible. 

Only partly true.

First edition L5R (and possibly other editions) has the rule of Blind TNs. Open TNs is where the GM gives you the TN outright. Blind TNs is where they give you no TN info, and you gain free raises for the difference between your (successful) roll vs the TN, but at a lower rate than the amount of called raises you could have made.

It's been around long enough, and favoured by groups long enough, that its actual origins within the game have been lost by some, and they consider it someone else's (or their own) homebrew. Which, for 4e, it is ... but it's a part of L5R history.

Edited by BitRunr

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Huh. Never encountered it. Is it in 1E core as a basic rule, or is it some kind of alternate rule? 

Pretty sure 4th Edition doesn't have anything like that, though, and that's what most people here are praising as the end-all L5R roleplaying experience.

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I'd have to spend some time digging to know whether it was in Silence Within Sound, Roleplaying In The Emerald Empire, or something else. (that was quicker than expected ... it's RPitEE, page 102)

Edited by BitRunr

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Having played all editions of L5R Roll & Keep is far from a perfect system, nor does it capture the setting all that well.

I personally am no fan of how the R&K mechanic, especially coupled with the insight calculation pushes you towards high rings and a bunch of skills at 1. Now, that said, the FFG system does much the same, at least at character creation, and arguably also during play, so I don't expect much change in that department.

Courtiers have never had much support. The FFG SW system more nuanced outcome then a basic pass/fail on courtier+awareness really shines in the social arena. It will be so much more rewarding to play a social character! 

Bushi's one technique per rank with perhaps a kata or two (though most people just have 'the Empire Rests on it's Edge' because OP) is very anemic. And the power jump for going from complex to simple attacks was not very thought out either, especially the fact that some schools got it at rank 3, others at rank 4. It wouldn't be hard to do a better job than this in the FFG system, they certainly made it work for SW.

Shugenja are a mess. They don't really match their priestly fluff, and, well, are quite imbalanced. I believe these issue are well-documented, so I only expect improvements in a new system. 

Monks could use more focus on their spiritual side as well instead of offering the option to just be straight up better bushi. So much of their kiho's is just combat related! The result is potentially having access to simple attacks at IR2 and ridiculous damage and CC. Meh, much the same as shugenja in my opinion, OP and not matching the fluff.

As for the special dice, yeah, let's face it, it is an additional source of income for FFG. I can live with that, knowing so much RPG content is pirated and it not being a very profitable branch it is one of the ways to make it more viable. If money is the objection you can work around it with an app or dice rolling site like orokos, buying blank dice or a mapping table.

The narrative effects I certainly enjoy, and haven't really run into issues with it. It is easy to just go for the mechanical effects if the gm and/or player run into a problem interpreting a particular roll. This, coupled with the limited narrative applications of the Force points (will probably become void points) leaves me a bit amazed at the criticism of having less agency than in R&K. It is even possible to easily ignore all the narrative bits in the system should that be the group's preference.

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1 hour ago, BitRunr said:

I'd have to spend some time digging to know whether it was in Silence Within Sound, Roleplaying In The Emerald Empire, or something else. (that was quicker than expected ... it's RPitEE, page 102)

So...it's like praising DnD for its spell points based spellcasting from Unearthed Arcana variant. 

Edited by WHW

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No ... UA equivalent would be some 4e designer's homebrew, like the "lost" minor clan schools that didn't quite get their mechanics fixed and printed.

Find a system that's almost the same over four editions, and it's like having a rule from the first edition that's subjectively good, useful, and works in the current edition for particular groups. Some of whom don't know it was ever an official rule.

Or you could just stick with talking about L5R, y'know. ;)

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1 hour ago, Doji Namika said:

Bushi's one technique per rank with perhaps a kata or two (though most people just have 'the Empire Rests on it's Edge' because OP) is very anemic. And the power jump for going from complex to simple attacks was not very thought out either, especially the fact that some schools got it at rank 3, others at rank 4. It wouldn't be hard to do a better job than this in the FFG system, they certainly made it work for SW.

Shugenja are a mess. They don't really match their priestly fluff, and, well, are quite imbalanced. I believe these issue are well-documented, so I only expect improvements in a new system. 

Monks could use more focus on their spiritual side as well instead of offering the option to just be straight up better bushi. So much of their kiho's is just combat related! The result is potentially having access to simple attacks at IR2 and ridiculous damage and CC. Meh, much the same as shugenja in my opinion, OP and not matching the fluff.

I've quoted this because this has nothing to do with the dice system at all. This kind of stuffs can happen with the R&K, with D20, with Narrative Dice, with [ENTER_ANY_DICE_SYSTEM_HERE]. While I agree with some stuffs, you shouldn't blame the dice system for that kind of stuffs, because this isn't a problem on the dice system.

Let's not compare mechanisms with the dice system...

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4 minutes ago, Crawd said:

I've quoted this because this has nothing to do with the dice system at all. This kind of stuffs can happen with the R&K, with D20, with Narrative Dice, with [ENTER_ANY_DICE_SYSTEM_HERE]. While I agree with some stuffs, you shouldn't blame the dice system for that kind of stuffs, because this isn't a problem on the dice system.

Let's not compare mechanisms with the dice system...

No, the parts you quoted indeed refer to balance issues and fluff and crunch not lining up very well. It has nothing to do with which dice have to be thrown. I do not believe I said so either, but perhaps I was unclear.

Anyway, we have learned to overlook many issues and quirks with L5R R&K. We also already have 4 versions of this game and most people I know that run it have their set of houserules to further tailor it, so the merit of a 5th iteration can be questioned, no?

Personally I look forward to a complete overhaul and the fresh look an utterly new system will bring to the mix!

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57 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Side thing. For those who don't want to buy new dice. Here's something for you.

 

1380768264595.jpg

 

 

In practice, does having to reference the chart appreciably slow the game down? Or does it get pretty quick / automatic after a while?

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