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Mirith

Genesys: Possible Source of the L5R RPG

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6 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm not wrong because the dice in Star Wars D8 are either 0 (4 sides effectively), 1 (3 sides), or 2(1 side). I roll 5 dice, I am not guaranteed a 5. If I roll 5 dice, it is very possible to roll 0 in Star Wars.

I was talking about # Dice here sorry about the confusion. 

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Just now, tenchi2a said:

I was talking about # Dice here sorry about the confusion. 

I'm not sure I'm confused. there isn't a guaranteed success in rolling dice for Star Wars. As long as there are blanks (0s) on the die, than it doesn't matter how many dice you roll. If I roll 5 dice, and the Target number is 5. There isn't a guarantee of my hitting 5.

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7 minutes ago, Mirith said:

#2 isn't valid.  You can get true random on computers, and honestly most simulations of true random is random enough.  

In what way is this invalid.

1. Dice have an 100% chance to come up any number on them.

2. An app is only as random as the number sets in is programmed with.

3. To have anything close to the randomness of a true set of dice would take hundreds of thousands of lines of code. some thing that I would bet FFG is not willing to pay for for a $5 app.

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2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm not sure I'm confused. there isn't a guaranteed success in rolling dice for Star Wars. As long as there are blanks (0s) on the die, than it doesn't matter how many dice you roll. If I roll 5 dice, and the Target number is 5. There isn't a guarantee of my hitting 5.

He is referring to the Roll & Keep system, not the Star Wars system.

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5 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm not sure I'm confused. there isn't a guaranteed success in rolling dice for Star Wars. As long as there are blanks (0s) on the die, than it doesn't matter how many dice you roll. If I roll 5 dice, and the Target number is 5. There isn't a guarantee of my hitting 5.

Well since you are still talking about SW they your are confusing what I was talking about in my original post. I was referring to d10s in L5R.

Edit sorry Mirith's post came in while I was typing

Edited by tenchi2a

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4 minutes ago, Mirith said:

He is referring to the Roll & Keep system, not the Star Wars system.

 

2 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Well since you are still talking about SW they your are confusing what I was talking about in my original post. I was referring to d10s in L5R.

I was responding to this point.

Quote

The point is not that they have if they truly have a chance of failing the roll or not.  Its that I don't tell them the TN so they think they have a chance of failure. With the SWNDS they know by the dice I give them that they can't fail.

I was saying they don't know they can't fail by the dice you give them in Star Wars.

Edited by RandomJC

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2 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

In what way is this invalid.

1. Dice have an 100% chance to come up any number on them.

2. An app is only as random as the number sets in is programmed with.

3. To have anything close to the randomness of a true set of dice would take hundreds of thousands of lines of code. some thing that I would bet FFG is not willing to pay for for a $5 app.

As I am perfectly willing to devolve this topic since I am willing to argue on the internet:  You are correct, actual true random is hard to come by.  However, you can get close enough for everyone but the most discerning of RNG connoisseurs pretty easily by basically seeding the RNG with something that the interacting person has little control over.  Yes, if you are super careful, you could get the same series of numbers, as typically the seed is some form of time.  But that should requires you setting your phone's clock back to a particular time and then starting the app at an exact known time.  And if someone truly wants to do this, I'm just not going to play with them.

Also, the point of True RNGs is not for this purpose.  Its for Cryptography and Casinos.  This is neither.

Also, the app is $5?  That is really expensive.

I still don't use dice apps.  But I'm willing to argue the technology behind them!

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1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

I was saying they don't know they can't fail by the dice you give them in Star Wars.

The point is not that the SW dice are not random. its that they are. If I don't want my PC to fail in L5R then I can set the TN low enough that they will not fail based on their skills. on top of that I don't have to tell them what the TN was so they will never know how well they did mechanically. allowing me to narrate it any way I see fit for my stories. I could give them a TN of 5 and they roll a 24. I could then tell them That with great effort and a keen eye you spot hard to see scrap marks on the floor where a secret door may be what do you do. The point is My players and I get to tell the story and not the dice.

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2 minutes ago, Mirith said:

As I am perfectly willing to devolve this topic since I am willing to argue on the internet:  You are correct, actual true random is hard to come by.  However, you can get close enough for everyone but the most discerning of RNG connoisseurs pretty easily by basically seeding the RNG with something that the interacting person has little control over.  Yes, if you are super careful, you could get the same series of numbers, as typically the seed is some form of time.  But that should requires you setting your phone's clock back to a particular time and then starting the app at an exact known time.  And if someone truly wants to do this, I'm just not going to play with them.

Also, the point of True RNGs is not for this purpose.  Its for Cryptography and Casinos.  This is neither.

Also, the app is $5?  That is really expensive.

I still don't use dice apps.  But I'm willing to argue the technology behind them!

Maybe another day. I was just making a point so no harm no foul ;)

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26 minutes ago, Mirith said:

#2 isn't valid.  You can get true random on computers, and honestly most simulations of true random is random enough.  

In fact, his #2 is valid, it's not possible to have a real random on computers. There's simulation of a random and it's not good enough because it can be manipulated. It will only be true the day we'll have quantum computing, which is still far yet. So the way of simulating the randomness is basically by changing the seeds, and under small apps, it's typically by using the datetime, which goes really fast that looping around is quickly done.

So yeah, his point is valid.

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4 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

 

The point is not that the SW dice are not random. its that they are. If I don't want my PC to fail in L5R then I can set the TN low enough that they will not fail based on their skills. on top of that I don't have to tell them what the TN was so they will never know how well they did mechanically. allowing me to narrate it any way I see fit for my stories. I could give them a TN of 5 and they roll a 24. I could then tell them That with great effort and a keen eye you spot hard to see scrap marks on the floor where a secret door may be what do you do. The point is My players and I get to tell the story and not the dice.

If you don't want the PCs to fail, why are you making them roll?  Ask "who has the highest Perception + Investigation?" and let them find the critical clue.

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1 minute ago, tenchi2a said:

 

The point is not that the SW dice are not random. its that they are. If I don't want my PC to fail in L5R then I can set the TN low enough that they will not fail based on their skills. on top of that I don't have to tell them what the TN was so they will never know how well they did mechanically. allowing me to narrate it any way I see fit for my stories. I could give them a TN of 5 and they roll a 24. I could then tell them That with great effort and a keen eye you spot hard to see scrap marks on the floor where a secret door may be what do you do. The point is My players and I get to tell the story and not the dice.

Then what's the point of the dice? Or stats?

I mean, if I knew my story teller was doing that, I'd be annoyed as all hell. Not only are you wasting my time with rolling dice, I haven't achieved anything as a character. Why not just go to a diceless game at that point and just freeform your story.

I think this is where we just part ways as players/GMs. If there isn't a point of failure, it isn't fun for me as a story teller or a player.

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7 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

If you don't want the PCs to fail, why are you making them roll?  Ask "who has the highest Perception + Investigation?" and let them find the critical clue.

 

7 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Then what's the point of the dice? Or stats?

I mean, if I knew my story teller was doing that, I'd be annoyed as all hell. Not only are you wasting my time with rolling dice, I haven't achieved anything as a character. Why not just go to a diceless game at that point and just freeform your story.

I think this is where we just part ways as players/GMs. If there isn't a point of failure, it isn't fun for me as a story teller or a player.

The point is storytelling. The players have many chances to fail in the game. What if on 3 dice he rolled a 4. That said there is a thing called fudging which GMs do all the time to advance the story. 

Also If I had never tolled you that the TN was 5 how would you know I did anything. The point here is to get the players to the next section of the adventure not to put a roadblock in their way. The purpose of the roll is to involve them in the story and let them think that their characters found the clue. If I just say hay there is a scrap on the ground and you find it because you have the highest skill. what do they feel like they have accomplished. 

Then again that's all up to the style of rpgs you want to play. Ask you GM if he has ever fudge a roll and I'll bet you the answer was yes. :)

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Just now, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

If the GM can do the difficulty dice rolls, that might put the fudge power back in his /her hands.

Has that ever been done?

Usually how I run it. SW isn't a ranked success, you don't need X successes, just succeed/fail. And if the character is proficient, one difficulty die isn't usually a hindrance to success. (Now I'm a fan of always having a possibility of failure, so that's fine with me.)

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4 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

If the GM can do the difficulty dice rolls, that might put the fudge power back in his /her hands.

Has that ever been done?

Since the rolls are open on both sides to allow for use of Advantages/Despairs I'm not sure how well that would work. But if you want to give it a try have at it. I think it would slowdown the game but thats just me.

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1 minute ago, tenchi2a said:

 

The point is storytelling. The players have many chances to fail in the game. What if on 3 dice he rolled a 4. That said there is a thing called fudging which GMs do all the time to advance the story. 

Also If I had never tolled you that the TN was 5 how would you know I did anything. The point here is to get the players to the next section of the adventure not to put a roadblock in their way. The purpose of the roll is to involve them in the story and let them think that their characters found the clue. If I just say hay there is a scrap on the ground and you find it because you have the highest skill. what do they feel like they have accomplished. 

Then again that's all up to the style of rpgs you want to play. Ask you GM if he has ever fudge a roll and I'll bet you the answer was yes. :)

Generally speaking I am my GM, and I try to avoid fudging rolls, by not making people roll the dice when there is a certain result required for the story to continue.  If the players want to roll something, it becomes "Everyone roll Perception/Investigation.  Ah, Kitsuki, here, you find this."

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1 minute ago, tenchi2a said:

 

The point is storytelling. The players have many chances to fail in the game. What if on 3 dice he rolled a 4. That said there is a thing called fudging which GMs do all the time to advance the story. 

Also If I had never tolled you that the TN was 5 how would you know I did anything. The point here is to get the players to the next section of the adventure not to put a roadblock in their way. The purpose of the roll is to involve them in the story and let them think that their characters found the clue. If I just say hay there is a scrap on the ground and you find it because you have the highest skill. what do they feel like they have accomplished. 

Then again that's all up to the style of rpgs you want to play. Ask you GM if he has ever fudge a roll and I'll bet you the answer was yes. :)

That isn't fudging the roll. That's just outright removing the chance of failure. Like I said, if I knew my GM was removing the chance of failure, I'd tell him to ef off.

I am fine with a TN 10, and they roll a 9, and saying they get it. It's close enough for me, I also never have hard/fast TNs. But the point is they could also roll a 5, and then they don't find it.

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Just now, tenchi2a said:

Since the rolls are open on both sides to allow for use of Advantages/Despairs I'm not sure how well that would work. But if you want to give it a try have at it. I think it would slowdown the game but thats just me.

I'd go old school and throw behind the screen.  If they can't trust what I tell them then they need a new gm anyway.:)

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1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I'd go old school and throw behind the screen.  If they can't trust what I tell them then they need a new gm anyway.:)

Sounds fun. Maybe I'll move it behind the screen in the future.

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15 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

Throw some up. Even if it's got guns:P

 

Hehehe, yes it have plenty of guns. It also has cybernetics and mecha.

A great deal of my homebrewed stuff is creating stuff that allows me to use the Roll & Keep system, which is maybe my favorite system ever, in different settings.

 

8 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Sounds like you're suffering from a bad case of selection confirmation, then.

Allow me to give counter data then: of everyone around these parts, the FFG RPG system is considered the best Star Wars RPG system to ever come out (although there's some fond nostalgia still for West End Games' pile of d6s), and most people are listing it among their high picks of general favorite game systems.

My favorite Star Wars RPG system ever is the SAGA edition. ;)

Specially with a system hack a bunch of people from my country did to play Mass Effect using it. It became one of my favorite systems as well, even for other settings.

I also understand that the FFG SW RPG is very successful and a lot of people like it. But the reasons people constantly cite for liking this system is precisely the reasons I dislike it. Just look at the discussion surrounding the dice in this very topic. As I said before, I detest these kinds of specialized dice, and the reason is that they take agency away from my hands, not only as a GM but as well as a player.

 

6 hours ago, WHW said:

I also saw that a lot of people who don't like doing constant math see symbols as a blessing. For a lot of people, roll of "10" or "+5" has no inherent meaning. I think it's just that a lot of people think that number-driven dice systems are more clear and easier to read simply because they have years of translating meaningless numbers into some kind of meaning trained by all the previous games.

My problem is not with the math/symbol thing, but with agency. I dislike systems that don't even allow my to try certain actions without first demanding a roll (the reason I like the Raises from the R&K system so much) or that provide nonsensical narrative results that can derail a game to hell, despite the will of the GM and players.

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28 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

That isn't fudging the roll. That's just outright removing the chance of failure. Like I said, if I knew my GM was removing the chance of failure, I'd tell him to ef off.

I am fine with a TN 10, and they roll a 9, and saying they get it. It's close enough for me, I also never have hard/fast TNs. But the point is they could also roll a 5, and then they don't find it.

Well That's just the way my players like it. they don't like being given the clues like "O since you have a high Investigate you find this" They like to roll and if I have to make the roll easy to advance the plot so be it.

Now since this was not the point of my post lets use your TN of 10. The player rolls a 24 in the R&K system I can make this seem as heroic or menial as I like, where in the NDS they know how well they did so I am limited by the dice in how I can describe the results. 

"I could give them a TN of 10 and they roll a 24. I could then tell them That with great effort and a keen eye you spot hard to see scrap marks on the floor where a secret door may be what do you do. The point is My players and I get to tell the story and not the dice."

Overall I do not like the SWNDS and would not play it again. If they choose to go that rout for this game my players and I have already decided to vote with our wallets and not buy it. Thats not a threat because I don't think it matters to FFG its just how it is.

Edited by tenchi2a

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8 minutes ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Hehehe, yes it have plenty of guns. It also has cybernetics and mecha.

A great deal of my homebrewed stuff is creating stuff that allows me to use the Roll & Keep system, which is maybe my favorite system ever, in different settings.

 

My favorite Star Wars RPG system ever is the SAGA edition. ;)

Specially with a system hack a bunch of people from my country did to play Mass Effect using it. It became one of my favorite systems as well, even for other settings.

I also understand that the FFG SW RPG is very successful and a lot of people like it. But the reasons people constantly cite for liking this system is precisely the reasons I dislike it. Just look at the discussion surrounding the dice in this very topic. As I said before, I detest these kinds of specialized dice, and the reason is that they take agency away from my hands, not only as a GM but as well as a player.

 

My problem is not with the math/symbol thing, but with agency. I dislike systems that don't even allow my to try certain actions without first demanding a roll (the reason I like the Raises from the R&K system so much) or that provide nonsensical narrative results that can derail a game to hell, despite the will of the GM and players.

All of this, but I think I can turn the system to my needs.

And thank you for reminding me I haven't finished Andromeda yet.:)

 

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