Alarin

Target vs. Affected

55 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Alarin said:

To be honest I was a little confused by the reply.

But it looks like the condition can be applied to all targets only via surge.

Surge is probs most common, but stuff like Molten Fury applies it to everything affected I bet.

So Runic Sorcery doesn't apply the chosen condition to everything affected. Glad that's cleared up.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Sadgit said:

My interpretation is:

Condition from surge ability: Is propagated to all figures targeted or affected by an attack.
Condition from Runic Sorcery:  Is applied only to the target of an attack targeting or affecting multiple figures.

It is not clear if during an attack targeting multiple figures (e.g. via Tarha's Heroic feat) the condition is applied to all targets or just one. I guess, it is the latter.   

I would have sayd the first one.
Indeed from my point of view blast or most of multi-attacks on have one target the rest being only affected.
In Tarha's case both initial figures are "targeted" so I would said it's applied to both... should the weapon have a blast all others will only be affcted and so no condition propagation. (Edit: unless the weapon itself as another surge inflicting a condition)
Nathan answer, I think, only specifies that powers triggered by surges that infict conditions should be rewriten "... the figure targeted or affected is ..." instead of " ... the target is ... "

But this is only theory because Tarha's Heroic Feat only allow 2 'normal' attacks.. so no combo with Runic Sorcery... :-)

Edited by Felin

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1 hour ago, Felin said:

But this is only theory because Tarha's Heroic Feat only allow 2 'normal' attacks.. so no combo with Runic Sorcery... :-)

Completely missed that. My bad. Out of my head actually I cannot think of any ability available by a Runemaster that would cause his/her attack to target multiple figures.  

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2 hours ago, Sadgit said:

Completely missed that. My bad. Out of my head actually I cannot think of any ability available by a Runemaster that would cause his/her attack to target multiple figures.  

Break The Rune? Or is that n/a?

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1 hour ago, Lightningclaw said:

Break The Rune? Or is that n/a?

Again Break the Rune and Runic Sorcery can't be mixed
So it will depend on the weapon... and conditions on the weapons are propagated to all figures targeted or affected.

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6 hours ago, Felin said:

Again Break the Rune and Runic Sorcery can't be mixed
So it will depend on the weapon... and conditions on the weapons are propagated to all figures targeted or affected.

Sorry, missed that part of the post. Hey, 36 hours without sleep will do that to you. 😁

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I don't think that following rules or official statements is inherently wrong, but I'm inclined to add the effects of runic sorcery to all affected by the blast. This is simply based on a sense of role-playing. The attack carries the condition, let's say it's a bolt of lightning, and the condition is stun. The addition of a stun to this bolt I would feel should be found throughout the bolt, however... I guess the chaining of the lighting might be a weaker version  of the initial strike.. 

I guess it's a matter of looking at it as an effect added to the bolt of lightning, or an extra "spell" added onto the target after the bolt has hit. 

It's tough to make a decision either way. 

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52 minutes ago, Ceahorse said:

I don't think that following rules or official statements is inherently wrong, but I'm inclined to add the effects of runic sorcery to all affected by the blast. This is simply based on a sense of role-playing. The attack carries the condition, let's say it's a bolt of lightning, and the condition is stun.

Since the Runemaster is already the strongest overall mage  in the game, I'm all for rulings that slightly tone down its power to let poor classes like the Hexer at least try to keep up.

Just take a look at "Crippling Curse" and compare it to "Runic Sorcery". The Hexer has to work way harder to land those conditions - they should be the one to have multi-application, not the Runemaster.

Edited by Charmy
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29 minutes ago, Charmy said:

Since the Runemaster is already the strongest overall mage  in the game, I'm all for rulings that slightly tone down its power to let poor classes like the Hexer at least try to keep up.

Just take a look at "Crippling Curse" and compare it to "Runic Sorcery". The Hexer has to work way harder to land those conditions - they should be the one to have multi-application, not the Runemaster.

This I can totally get behind. 

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Wow, well based on the wording, it sounds like the uFAQ is incorrect.

I think I would play it such that anything 'affected' by an attack is not considered a target for the purpose of any ability or (in this case) condition card.  That would mean that a blast attack that affects multiple mobs would only apply the condition on the original target.

In the case of Runic Sorcery, the wording then becomes clear and it affects only the target.

In the case of some monster abilities (such as pincer attack on the Arachyula) which target multiple figures, any surge applied conditions (such as infector cards 'Contaminated') would apply to both targets.

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Silidus, I'm pretty sure there was a relatively recent ruling regarding multi-space attacks and conditions/surge abilities... if anyone else knows what I'm talking about feel free to post a link.

I know that conditions do propogate to affected figures and not just targets in at least some cases:

Rules Question:
The Skirmisher's "Carve a Path" (and some other abilities like the Giant's "Sweep" are attacks which "affect all spaces..." Do these attacks target any spaces, or are all spaces merely "affected" by the attack? (Does this mean the Giant can't stun with "Sweep," or is the use of "target" in the surge ability nonspecific?) Thanks!

Answer:
...we have determined that those attacks remain consistent with the use of “target” versus “affect,” meaning that there is no target in an attack that simply affects figures. We’ve further discussed that any surge for conditions (Surge: Stun, Surge: Poison, etc.) used during such an attack should extend to those affected by an attack and not just the target. So in your example, though a Giant does not have a target when it sweeps, it may still Stun affected figures if it applies Stun to the attack.

Thanks for playing!
Kara Centell-Dunk

 

Edited by Zaltyre

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1 hour ago, Zaltyre said:

Silidus, I'm pretty sure there was a relatively recent ruling regarding multi-space attacks and conditions/surge abilities... if anyone else knows what I'm talking about feel free to post a link.

I know that conditions do propogate to affected figures and not just targets in at least some cases:

Rules Question:
The Skirmisher's "Carve a Path" (and some other abilities like the Giant's "Sweep" are attacks which "affect all spaces..." Do these attacks target any spaces, or are all spaces merely "affected" by the attack? (Does this mean the Giant can't stun with "Sweep," or is the use of "target" in the surge ability nonspecific?) Thanks!

Answer:
...we have determined that those attacks remain consistent with the use of “target” versus “affect,” meaning that there is no target in an attack that simply affects figures. We’ve further discussed that any surge for conditions (Surge: Stun, Surge: Poison, etc.) used during such an attack should extend to those affected by an attack and not just the target. So in your example, though a Giant does not have a target when it sweeps, it may still Stun affected figures if it applies Stun to the attack.

Thanks for playing!
Kara Centell-Dunk

 

Ugg, way to go FFG...

So then surge conditions should say 'affected' but Runic Sorcery should still stay targeted?  This is why my Descent group doesn't trust me.

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3 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

Silidus, I'm pretty sure there was a relatively recent ruling regarding multi-space attacks and conditions/surge abilities... if anyone else knows what I'm talking about feel free to post a link

I thought that this question had been clarified by Nathan in this very thread . Is there anything still unclear about the stance that FFG is taking in this regard?

 

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This is why I stopped updating my glossary, or at least realized the immense value or Sadgit's CRRG.

The unfortunate reality is that while D2e has a MOSTLY consistent language, there are a bunch of abilities where terms are used in atypical ways. Conditions and condition surges are probably the largest offenders here.

 

Ninja'd by Sadgit. Speak of the devil...

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3 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

Oh it WAS this very thread. No, I'm good. :D

You know you've been doing this for too long when you forget which thread you're in. ^_^ 

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14 hours ago, Sadgit said:

I thought that this question had been clarified by Nathan in this very thread . Is there anything still unclear about the stance that FFG is taking in this regard?

 

 

For one brief moment, the laws of the universe became clear, target and afflicted keywords were shining beacons of reason and law.  These truths, stretching from Mist back to core set made everything clear, and all was right in the wording, and it was only I, my eyes blinded by blast and stun, that could not see the truth that had always been..... and then FFG came down and say 'oh, except that, treat conditions differently'.

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9 hours ago, Silidus said:

 

For one brief moment, the laws of the universe became clear, target and afflicted keywords were shining beacons of reason and law.  These truths, stretching from Mist back to core set made everything clear, and all was right in the wording, and it was only I, my eyes blinded by blast and stun, that could not see the truth that had always been..... and then FFG came down and say 'oh, except that, treat conditions differently'.

Oh god as a newbie  I'm so confused now

So which of these would apply conditions and which wouldn't:

Berserker's Whirlwind with a surge condition effect (say, the Serpent Dagger's poison)

Spiritspeaker's Shared Pain, with a weapon surge for a condition (say, the Serpent Dagger's poison)

Spiritspeaker's Ancestor Spirits + Tempest

Runemaster's Runic Sorcery + Magma Blast rune surge Blast effect 

Runemaster's Runic Blast using a rune weapon with a surge condition effect (say, Rune of Misery's curse)

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4 hours ago, 10355ts said:

Oh god as a newbie  I'm so confused now

So which of these would apply conditions and which wouldn't:

Berserker's Whirlwind with a surge condition effect (say, the Serpent Dagger's poison)

Spiritspeaker's Shared Pain, with a weapon surge for a condition (say, the Serpent Dagger's poison)

Spiritspeaker's Ancestor Spirits + Tempest

Runemaster's Runic Sorcery + Magma Blast rune surge Blast effect 

Runemaster's Runic Blast using a rune weapon with a surge condition effect (say, Rune of Misery's curse)

To my understanding;

Berserker's Whirlwind with a surge condition effect (say, the Serpent Dagger's poison) - Yes, applies poison on surge.

Shared Pain, with weapon surge - No, damage dealt is not part of the attack and other figures in the group are neither targeted nor affected by the attack.  They are damaged by shared pain.
 

Ancestors Spirits + Tempest - Yes, Tempest is a class card, and monsters within 3 squares are damaged by it.

Runic Sorcery + Magma Blast surge - No, Runic Sorcery applies only to the Target (If I understood this thread correctly)

Runic Blast with rune weapon with surge condition - Yes (due to FFG response that conditions 'targeted' applies to blast)

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Ok, so let me get complicated for a second then:

Jaes the Exile as a Battlemage Berserker, using Planar Weapon to weild a Magma Blast rune, which allows for Blast and Burning as on-surge effects.

Let's say Jaes is standing at the center of a group of eight kobolds, and uses Whirlwind, which allows a separate attack roll against each adjacent monster.

Could each separate attack from the Whirlwind, individually, trigger Blast, and then trigger Burning on each adjacent target on each separate activation of Blast?

Edited by 10355ts

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17 minutes ago, 10355ts said:

Ok, so let me get complicated for a second then:

Jaes the Exile as a Battlemage Berserker, using Planar Weapon to weild a Magma Blast rune, which allows for Blast and Burning as on-surge effects.

Let's say Jaes is standing at the center of a group of eight kobolds, and uses Whirlwind, which allows a separate attack roll against each adjacent monster.

Could each separate attack from the Whirlwind, individually, trigger Blast, and then trigger Burning on each adjacent target on each separate activation of Blast?

Oops, somehow misread Whirlwind.

The answer is yes,  but only one attack roll is made, which gains blast and buring, so any units adjacent to the targeted mobs  that are not already affected, will also be effected, this includes Jaes, but would not allow for multiple hits on the same Kobold.

Most likely, blast in this case would not add very many additional targets (other than Jaes himself), but every target that takes damage would be affected by Burning.

Edited by Silidus
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8 rolls, or one roll? He only rolls offensive dice once, for Whirlwind. 

Either way, that's what Death Siphon is for. 

Total XP cost for build would then be 6 though which may be hard to reach in some of the app campaigns.

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