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Norell

Picking up ships from the table

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I got into an awkward situation this weekend. My MC30 stopped just outside of my opponent's MC80's red range. We both confirmed that the ship was out of range. In the next turn I had to pick up the ship to be able to place the maneuver tool to move another ship. I marked the place, took the ship from the table, made the move and put the MC30 back where it was before. Or so I thought because my opponent quickly measured range and declared that my ship now is in range and he wants to shoot at it. Indeed, my placement was maybe a millimeter tor two off so now my ship was just in range by a hairline. I argued that we both confirmed before that the ship wasn't in range so he shouldn't take the shot.

(In the end he didn't take the shot but said that I own him one which he tried to claim on later when he misinterpreted the targeting rules and I took a shot he thought I couldn't.)

I just want to know the opinion of the community about this whole situation. On one hand, we both agreed that the ship was out of range, and I had to pick it up to move my other ship (there even was a debris field involved to stack stuff on each other). On the other, you shouldn't pick up ships, but in some situations you simply have to. Can this be a valid claim to take a shot we both agreed previously that couldn't be taken?

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7 minutes ago, Norell said:

I got into an awkward situation this weekend. My MC30 stopped just outside of my opponent's MC80's red range. We both confirmed that the ship was out of range. In the next turn I had to pick up the ship to be able to place the maneuver tool to move another ship. I marked the place, took the ship from the table, made the move and put the MC30 back where it was before. Or so I thought because my opponent quickly measured range and declared that my ship now is in range and he wants to shoot at it. Indeed, my placement was maybe a millimeter tor two off so now my ship was just in range by a hairline. I argued that we both confirmed before that the ship wasn't in range so he shouldn't take the shot.

(In the end he didn't take the shot but said that I own him one which he tried to claim on later when he misinterpreted the targeting rules and I took a shot he thought I couldn't.)

I just want to know the opinion of the community about this whole situation. On one hand, we both agreed that the ship was out of range, and I had to pick it up to move my other ship (there even was a debris field involved to stack stuff on each other). On the other, you shouldn't pick up ships, but in some situations you simply have to. Can this be a valid claim to take a shot we both agreed previously that couldn't be taken?

I would think not. It's the same thing with nudging normally. If you have both agreed and checked that it is out of range, then an accidental move shouldn't affect that. If only one of you confirmed it, then it's a different story, but if you both agree, then I don't think it's justifiable to claim an accidental shift is ground for changing that assessment.

Edit: To turn the question around: if it ended up in range, then was accidentally bumped out of range, wouldn't you still consider it to have been in range?

Edited by GhostofNobodyInParticular

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You measured it off earlier and it was clear that it was out.  At that point, we understand where the ships were even after any bumping, readjusting, repositioning, and so forth.   That was excessive to claim that you owe him one on that.  After all, one of the things that makes the game work well socially is a bit of generosity on the part of the players.  It is no longer generosity when it is demanded.

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I'm going to argue that your opponent has a (small) point.

"Official" measurements of range happen when attacks are being resolved, not after ships have completed their maneuvers. I would regard any range checks that happen outside of the attack sequence as informal; giving you an idea about how you might proceed with attacks and maneuvers, but they shouldn't be considered "binding". What if this would have happened and your ship HADN'T been moved (eg. you hadn't measure the actual shortest distance in your previous measurement)? Would you deny your opponent the attack?

The fly in the ointment is that you DID move your ship to facilitate another maneuver. Your opponent insisting that the current position is the correct one is pretty shady. If you have to be careful about such things, then you will need to refuse to remove your ships to allow maneuvers. That's a hassle, but it would eliminate disputes if this is a common sort of thing.

Edited by RobertK

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Its okay to be competitive at tournies, buts its not okay to be an ***.

Once both sides have agreed that two ships is out of range of each other, that state of affairs stays, until one of the ships has moved to a new position, during the same or following turn.

Armada is supposed to be fun to play for both players. And one should never ruin it with unsportmanship behavior, by agreeing to one state of affairs and then flip around 180 by disagreeing with ones own statement.

This only create bad kharma around the offending player, which eventually manifest itself, by him/her having bad dice rolls later on ;):):D:P 

(Well I hope its does)

Edited by Kiwi Rat

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If your opponent wants to be a jerk who agonizes over millimeters and wants to split hairs over the game state when he really should know better due to an earlier conversation then perhaps he should go play Warmachine?*

There's a certain amount of wiggle room inherent in Armada due to picking up squadrons and ships when required due to using the maneuver tool and range rulers and the like. That's just going to happen. When it's a very important situation, make sure to measure range to important models first and then agree on ranges/distance like you did. Then use as many position markers as is reasonable, remove the model from the table, do your thing, then replace it as best as you can. Adjust slightly if necessary to make it obey the ranges you all agreed to earlier. If later on it's found its way into a new range, then adjust as best as you can.

*Yes, I'm a salty ex-Warmachine player. Sorry not sorry. I've never seen grown men argue over fractions of an inch and storm out of the room so much as when I played Warmachine.

 

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15 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

*Yes, I'm a salty ex-Warmachine player. Sorry not sorry. I've never seen grown men argue over fractions of an inch and storm out of the room so much as when I played Warmachine.

Ha ha.  I remember those days...

I'm of the opinion that the game state is how it is agreed upon by both players.  If you measure the closest distance between two ships and it is outside of long range, then even after a bump or pick up and replace to facilitate other movements, you can say that they're still outside that range.  Until either ship has moved, that is the established distance.

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Normally when someone is such a jerk against me, i don't have to do anything. Call it Karma. But the Dice will do their part.
So far it was two times, and i totally wiped them away with insane rolls. I didn't even say sorry after this (something i normally always do when the dice are so unbalanced).

It is not worth to fight against them about something like this. If i made a fault and placed the ship wrong and the opponent start such a **** like this, there are two ways.

  • Accept it and let the dice balance it out.
  • Or move the ship away with the words: "ohh, you are right, its standing wrong because it was out of range earlier. See? Now its fine"

Sometimes it hard to find out what it the right way :P.

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Measuring after I move, and pointing out the placement to my opponent (like okay, we agree I have you double arced and close range on both, with line of sight?) is something I've always done and it makes the game go faster.  It also takes the pressure off Sleeves McGee who bumps some ships.  I'm like hey, know worries, we knew he was double arced at close, so lets just make sure that's still true.  I've never had anyone go back on that like you describe, and I'm very laid back, but I would totally call a judge on that dude.  And if the judge ruled in his favor, I would request a judge be present for the duration as I consider that kind of behavior paramount to cheating. 

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I've had that happen. Never had anyone go back on a previous agreement... That's why we took the time to measure, and come to an agreement.

 

Usually it seems to happen to me when I measure, and something is just out of range, then I measure again on that ship's activation, and suddenly the thing is just in range - in which case I'll refuse, because it shouldn't be in range.

 

I've had cases where I've extended an extra courtesy in response to my opponent extending courtesy first. For example, on Saturday an opponent let me spend my engineering token after I shot because it didn't make any difference in regards to what happened. I'd allow the same thing - but never has anyone told me that I owe them.

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If you have pre measured then that's done, I often pre measure range and agree if I know a ship will need to be moved. It's one way you know you are putting it back in the right place. 

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3 hours ago, Norell said:

In all fairness I think it was a rather frustrating game for him so I'm not holding any grudge. It just didn't leave me alone that maybe I shouls have allowed him to take that shot...

No you shouldn't have. He's an adult. You can be sympathetic as a friend if he's having a frustrating game, but no one wins if the rules are broken/bent out of shape for his feelings. He's an adult. He can move on, or he can leave.

Edited by GiledPallaeon

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1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

No you shouldn't have. He's an adult. You can be sympathetic as a friend if he's having a frustrating game, but no one wins if the rules are broken/bent out of shape for his feelings. He's an adult. He can move on, or he can leave.

I don't see where the rules were broken. You measure when you declare the shot. If it's in range at this point then it is in range.

You're talking about ignoring the rules for the sake of courtesy. Which is cool - but not the same.

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1 minute ago, Democratus said:

I don't see where the rules were broken. You measure when you declare the shot. If it's in range at this point then it is in range.

You're talking about ignoring the rules for the sake of courtesy. Which is cool - but not the same.

Doing this allows people to cheat, intentionally or not. If you don't measure after you finish a move and agree on the range, it is very easy to nudge something out of or into range. This is easiest to do with squads. What your suggesting is this:

X-Wing moves into range 1 of 3 Tie/F. Measurement confirms they are engaged and the X-Wing attacks.
Tie/F 1 attacks the X-Wing. Player reduces hull and puts the X-Wing down, but slightly back, intentional or not.
Tie/F 2 attacks, but is outside of engagement range. Attack ends.
Tie/F 3 attacks, but is outside of engagement range. Attack ends.

If you already confirmed the game state earlier, you must follow that because it allows for less strict play and smooths tensions for both players.

Or what if a player bumps a ship that was at medium range, and it was acknowledged by both players because that ship made an attack at medium range, and the ship ends up at long when the other player measures to attack? What do you do now? Because the RRG says it's long range, but the previous game state said medium. 

I'm all for ignoring rules to make sure the game remains fair for both of us.

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15 minutes ago, Democratus said:

I don't see where the rules were broken. You measure when you declare the shot. If it's in range at this point then it is in range.

You're talking about ignoring the rules for the sake of courtesy. Which is cool - but not the same.

The attack rules were not broken. They were bent, which is why I inserted that phrase. Rules of common courtesy and sportsmanship, which IIRC are also in the RRG and I know are in the tournament rules, were broken. In either case, @Norell holding his ground was completely justifiable.

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2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Doing this allows people to cheat, intentionally or not. If you don't measure after you finish a move and agree on the range, it is very easy to nudge something out of or into range. This is easiest to do with squads. What your suggesting is this:

X-Wing moves into range 1 of 3 Tie/F. Measurement confirms they are engaged and the X-Wing attacks.
Tie/F 1 attacks the X-Wing. Player reduces hull and puts the X-Wing down, but slightly back, intentional or not.
Tie/F 2 attacks, but is outside of engagement range. Attack ends.
Tie/F 3 attacks, but is outside of engagement range. Attack ends.

If you already confirmed the game state earlier, you must follow that because it allows for less strict play and smooths tensions for both players.

Or what if a player bumps a ship that was at medium range, and it was acknowledged by both players because that ship made an attack at medium range, and the ship ends up at long when the other player measures to attack? What do you do now? Because the RRG says it's long range, but the previous game state said medium. 

I'm all for ignoring rules to make sure the game remains fair for both of us.

Ignoring the rules is totally fine for having a fun and low stress game. We do it all the time.

I just wanted to make sure to point out that rules were not broken in this case.

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21 hours ago, Snipafist said:

*Yes, I'm a salty ex-Warmachine player. Sorry not sorry. I've never seen grown men argue over fractions of an inch and storm out of the room so much as when I played Warmachine.

21 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Ha ha.  I remember those days...

I'm of the opinion that the game state is how it is agreed upon by both players.  If you measure the closest distance between two ships and it is outside of long range, then even after a bump or pick up and replace to facilitate other movements, you can say that they're still outside that range.  Until either ship has moved, that is the established distance.

And probably one of the reasons why I tend to prefer playing games that have a 'defined' playing area, be it hexes or a grid. I either AM or AM NOT 5 hexes/squares away. I can pick up my model, flip it around etc, and when I put it back into it's space, it once again is IS or NOT 5 hexes/squares away.

 

But that said,  the other player is definitetly not following the most basic rule of any game:

 

Don't be a Jerk!

Edited by NeonKnight

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