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Shadow345

Potential Rear Admiral Chiraneau list for tournament

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Is this heading in the right direction?

 

Rear Admiral Chiraneau - Veteran Instincts, Ysanne Isard, Gunner, Engine Upgrade - 60

Pure Sabacc - Adaptive Ailerons, Lightweight Frame, Lone Wolf - 24

Wampa - 14

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Agreed. Gunner/Hotshot Copilot at PS10 is very nice for crippling the enemy's token stacks, and will probably save you more damage in the long run than one evade a turn after you lose shields. 

Sabbac is a great ship, but being able to trigger lone wolf is going to take some fancy flying. Lone Wolf is great on N'Dru Sulhak because his ability double-dips on the same trigger, and because he's generally packing missiles so he can engage at range 3 without penalty. Sabbac really wants to be at range 2 or even range 1 - range 3 is a bad spot for the striker because lightweight frame doesn't give you any bonus. He's a bit of a kamikaze, so Crack Shot might be worth a look.

That ups you to 3 points spare - meaning you could consider taking a 3rd crew and still have a decent initiative bid (inspiring recruit might be a good antidote to stress lists, or Rebel Captive to pack some stress of your own)

Wampa is awesome as a filler - for 14 points it's ridiculous how much fear he generates in the Protectorate-and-TIE-Interceptor brigade.

 

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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53 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That ups you to 3 points spare - meaning you could consider taking a 3rd crew and still have a decent initiative bid (inspiring recruit might be a good antidote to stress lists, or Rebel Captive to pack some stress of your own)

Wampa is awesome as a filler - for 14 points it's ridiculous how much fear he generates in the Protectorate-and-TIE-Interceptor brigade.

Rebel Captive is an awesome 3-point option. IMO it's auto-include on my RAC builds as he needs as many deterrents as possible. 

WAAAAAAMPA.  

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I ran against a RAC list that had Palp and Kylo.  He ran it alongside Lt. Colzet in the Tie advanced.  What he would do is Kylo one of your ships, get blinded pilot, and TL with Colzet.  He would than keep TL'ing that ship with Colzet and using his ability to flip the blinded up every turn.  It's devastating against a 2 ship list because the Deci at PS10 is hard to go 1 on 1 against.  However, lists that have more ships, or bombs did very well against it.  Dengar did well too since he can attack more than once.

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So this may be crazy, and I've been culling things from a number of different new and old threads, but I'm thinking about bringing RAC + Stridan to a tourney this Saturday.  What I've been playing around as a final version is-

 

RAC - Expose, Fleet Officer, Rebel Captive, Engine Upgrade (60)

Stridan - Fire Control System, Systems Officer, Sensor Cluster, Weapons Guidance (40)

 

Stridan hangs back while rac jets forward first round.  Then the green Stridan move lets rac get a target lock, coordinate for focus on both.  RAC reveals green and actions for additional die.  Captive stops expertise from higher PS and RAC slaps down a major modified 4-5 red hit, followed by a long range 4 die hit from stridan.

Edited by Zucch10

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4 minutes ago, Zucch10 said:

So this may be crazy, and I've been culling things from a number of different new and old threads, but I'm thinking about bringing RAC + Stridan to a tourney this Saturday.  What I've been playing around as a final version is-

 

RAC - Expose, Fleet Officer, Rebel Captive, Engine Upgrade (60)

Stridan - Fire Control System, Systems Officer, Sensor Cluster, Weapons Guidance (40)

 

Stridan hangs back while rac jets forward first round.  Then the low move lets rac get a target lock, coordinate for focus on both.  RAC reveals green and actions for additional die.  Captive stops expertise from higher PS and RAC slaps down a major modified 4-5 red hit, followed by a long range 4 die hit from stridan.

What do you think about dropping the Engine for Rec Spec on Stridan?  The boosts competes with fleet officer when coordinate is not available.  Plus with rec spec you can get both weapons guidance and sensor cluster each round.

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16 minutes ago, Zucch10 said:

So this may be crazy, and I've been culling things from a number of different new and old threads, but I'm thinking about bringing RAC + Stridan to a tourney this Saturday.  What I've been playing around as a final version is-

 

RAC - Expose, Fleet Officer, Rebel Captive, Engine Upgrade (60)

Stridan - Fire Control System, Systems Officer, Sensor Cluster, Weapons Guidance (40)

 

Stridan hangs back while rac jets forward first round.  Then the green Stridan move lets rac get a target lock, coordinate for focus on both.  RAC reveals green and actions for additional die.  Captive stops expertise from higher PS and RAC slaps down a major modified 4-5 red hit, followed by a long range 4 die hit from stridan.

I think this would be super fun but also that RAC will get melted in 1 or 2 turns. He's not throwing out enough damage to delete anything major in one turn really, I don't think. I'd bloody love to see how it goes though! 

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1 hour ago, BlackOne said:

I would run RAC with Vader, Kyle, and Gunner. Engine upgrade is a must. I like VI, but Expertise works if you're willing to pay for it.

Predator over Expertise on RAC any day. Expertise has 0 synergy with his ability which you absolutely must use for Kylo.

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5 hours ago, BlackOne said:

I would run RAC with Vader, Kyle, and Gunner. Engine upgrade is a must. I like VI, but Expertise works if you're willing to pay for it.

Expertise is definitely the wrong choice for RAC. Also, if you're going to rely on Kylo, you want that higher pilot skill. You'll have to rely on Gunner and RAC's native ability to make sure you're shutting down your enemy before they have a chance to shoot. Otherwise, you remember why Decimators are called, "crit magnets."

 

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I totally agree with the point in VI; it makes perfect sense. I Do think that Expertise is still superior to Predator in every regard, and here's why:

1) The controlling player gets to choose the order in which abilities apply; this means that you can use RAC's ability, and then flip the rest of your eyeballs via Expertise; so, it doesn't interfere with the pilot ability (though it doesn't have any synergy with it  either). But that is OK, because as we will see below, Predator's synergy with RAC comes with a hefty price in damage output.

2) Math: I won't explain out everything for the sake of brevity, but if you are interested, just reply, and I'll be happy to elaborate.

Comparison 1: Overall damage output

With Predator (optimized placement of the re-roll vs RAC's ability)

Expected damage = 0.75 (predator) + 0.75 (RAC) + 0.5 (unmodified) = 2

With Expertise

Expected damage = 0.75 (RAC) + 0.75 (Expertise) + 0.75 (Expertise) = 2.25

Conclusion: Expertise has a higher overall damage output by 0.25

Comparison 2: Expected CRIT results (for Kylo)

With Predator (optimized placement of re-roll vs RAC's ability, potentially re-rolling a hit to attempt a crit)

Expected crits = 0.375 (RAC) + 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.234 (Predator) = 0.734

Note: The die re-rolled with Predator also has a 0.4375 chance of coming up blank; to optimize the chances of getting a CRIT, we have to re-roll it, even if it is a hit

With Expertise

Expected crits = 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.375 (RAC) = 0.625

Conclusion: Predator gives a higher expected crits by 0.19

So, as we can see, while predator does give a higher chance of getting a crit, it also significantly lowers our overall expected damage, especially if we try to optimize the chances of getting a crit. So, unless we want to rely purely on Vader + Gunner shenanigans (which would get us killed in like 2-3 turns), Expertise's higher damage output is a lot more appealing than the better crit chance. I also did the math on how effectively Predator vs Expertise could actually land their crit on another ship (using some commonly played ships as examples), and Expertise, while having a lower crit probability, is better at actually dealing those crits that it does give. 

 

Overall conclusion: Expertise > Predator

However, ultimately, I agree with ArbitryNerd. Veteran Instincts, at least in the current meta is far superior to both Expertise and Predator; it will let RAC actually kill some fools before dying himself. In conjunction with VI, he can arc-dodge anyone in the game. 

 

Edited by BlackOne

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14 minutes ago, BlackOne said:

I totally agree with the point in VI; it makes perfect sense. I Do think that Expertise is still superior to Predator in every regard, and here's why:

1) The controlling player gets to choose the order in which abilities apply; this means that you can use RAC's ability, and then flip the rest of your eyeballs via Expertise; so, it doesn't interfere with the pilot ability (though it doesn't have any synergy with it  either). But that is OK, because as we will see below, Predator's synergy with RAC comes with a hefty price in damage output.

2) Math: I won't explain out everything for the sake of brevity, but if you are interested, just reply, and I'll be happy to elaborate.

Comparison 1: Overall damage output

With Predator (optimized placement of the re-roll vs RAC's ability)

Expected damage = 0.75 (predator) + 0.75 (RAC) + 0.5 (unmodified) = 2

With Expertise

Expected damage = 0.75 (RAC) + 0.75 (Expertise) + 0.75 (Expertise) = 2.25

Conclusion: Expertise has a higher overall damage output by 0.25

Comparison 2: Expected CRIT results (for Kylo)

With Predator (optimized placement of re-roll vs RAC's ability, potentially re-rolling a hit to attempt a crit)

Expected crits = 0.375 (RAC) + 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.234 (Predator) = 0.734

Note: The die re-rolled with Predator also has a 0.4375 chance of coming up blank; to optimize the chances of getting a CRIT, we have to re-roll it, even if it is a hit

With Expertise

Expected crits = 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.125 (unmodified) + 0.375 (RAC) = 0.625

Conclusion: Predator gives a higher expected crits by 0.19

So, as we can see, while predator does give a higher chance of getting a crit, it also significantly lowers our overall expected damage, especially if we try to optimize the chances of getting a crit. So, unless we want to rely purely on Vader + Gunner shenanigans (which would get us killed in like 2-3 turns), Expertise's higher damage output is a lot more appealing than the better crit chance. I also did the math on how effectively Predator vs Expertise could actually land their crit on another ship (using some commonly played ships as examples), and Expertise, while having a lower crit probability, is better at actually dealing those crits that it does give. 

 

Overall conclusion: Expertise > Predator

However, ultimately, I agree with ArbitryNerd. Veteran Instincts, at least in the current meta is far superior to both Expertise and Predator; it will let RAC actually kill some fools before dying himself. In conjunction with VI, he can arc-dodge anyone in the game. 

 

Except that expected damage with RAC+Predator is 2.496 and not 2, making it superior for a point less. Also expected crits with Predator are 1.11 and not 0.734

It seems like you've built some kind of dependancy into the seperate dice whereas they are really not dependant at all. Or idk where your mistake is, but anyhow you're way off.

Math provided by :

http://xwingcalculator.x10host.com/diceuilm.html

 

Edited by Celez

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In my experience, that dice calculator in particular does strange things with stacked modifiers. For example, if you give it Hans ability and a t-lock, it always uses Hans ability, which gives a lower-than-true expected damage. Anyway, I'm pretty certain my math is correct, so here are some possible explanations: 

1) I am in fact correct, and thus is one of those instances where the calculator bugged out due to stacking abilities.

2) I have missed a more optimal application of all the different mods, and the app has caught this; in other words, my math is correct, but only for thus specific, suboptimal arrangement

3) My math is just wrong. If you think this is the case, which it seems you do, I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on where you think I went wrong. I have by no means " built dependency into the dice" . In fact, the formulae I used operate on the assumption that they are in fact independent. I think it's unwise to just take the numbers an app gives you without understanding the mathematical concept behind it. Why don't you try calculating by hand, and then I'll play with the numbers to figure out how the app calculated it, and between the two of us, we can probably figure out what happened. No matter what the outcome is, I'm still curious; for me, this is one of the more interesting parts of the game.

 

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1 hour ago, BlackOne said:

In my experience, that dice calculator in particular does strange things with stacked modifiers. For example, if you give it Hans ability and a t-lock, it always uses Hans ability, which gives a lower-than-true expected damage. Anyway, I'm pretty certain my math is correct, so here are some possible explanations: 

1) I am in fact correct, and thus is one of those instances where the calculator bugged out due to stacking abilities.

2) I have missed a more optimal application of all the different mods, and the app has caught this; in other words, my math is correct, but only for thus specific, suboptimal arrangement

3) My math is just wrong. If you think this is the case, which it seems you do, I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on where you think I went wrong. I have by no means " built dependency into the dice" . In fact, the formulae I used operate on the assumption that they are in fact independent. I think it's unwise to just take the numbers an app gives you without understanding the mathematical concept behind it. Why don't you try calculating by hand, and then I'll play with the numbers to figure out how the app calculated it, and between the two of us, we can probably figure out what happened. No matter what the outcome is, I'm still curious; for me, this is one of the more interesting parts of the game.

 

ok, to verify results from the calculator i put in 3dice+RAC and verified the results by hand.

Excpected damage: 2.0781225

hit probability

0 hits: 1,5625% (this happens only if you roll 3 blanks 0.25 * 0.25 * 0.25 = math checks out)

1 hits: 20.3125% (this happens if you roll 1 hit 2blanks or 1eye 2 blanks or 2 eyes 1blank or 3 eyes: (0.5 * 0.25 * 0.25)*3 + (0.25 * 0.25 * 0.25)*3 + (0.25*0.25*0.25)*3 + (0.25*0.25*0.25)= math checks out)

2hits: 46.875% (this happens if you roll 2hits 1 blank or 1 hit 1eye 1blank or 1hit 2eyes: (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.25) * 3 + (0.5 * 0.25 * 0.25) *6 +  (0.5 * 0.25 * 0.25) *3 = math checks out)

3 hits: 31.25% = math checks out because thats how you get to 100% based on the above.

 

Therefore i have to assume the calculator is correct. And since expected damage with just RAC is already 2.078 RAC+Predator yielding 2.49 sounds about right.

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Got it! I think you're right, and I also figured out my error. In my analysis, each of the modifiers were applied to a particular dice before it was hypothetically rolled. For example, I said that with Predator and RAC, you get 1 die with a 50% hit chance (unmodified), one with a 75% hit  chance (RAC), and another wit ha 75% hit chance (Predator). However, this is not how it is actually done; AFTER dice are rolled, the mods can me applied to whichever die you want. So your math is correct, and on RAC, Predator is superior to Expertise. 

Interestingly enough, I think this case is actually an exception. Assuming my math holds true for other cases, which I think it does (this case is a bit wonky, because we've got two abilities, each of which modify one die of you choice), Expertise seems to be superior to Predator in most other cases, Han and Dengar in particular.

However, the earlier point still stands; Veteran Instincts is the best choice unless you want to get shot down in 2 turns.

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10 hours ago, BlackOne said:

Got it! I think you're right, and I also figured out my error. In my analysis, each of the modifiers were applied to a particular dice before it was hypothetically rolled. For example, I said that with Predator and RAC, you get 1 die with a 50% hit chance (unmodified), one with a 75% hit  chance (RAC), and another wit ha 75% hit chance (Predator). However, this is not how it is actually done; AFTER dice are rolled, the mods can me applied to whichever die you want. So your math is correct, and on RAC, Predator is superior to Expertise. 

Interestingly enough, I think this case is actually an exception. Assuming my math holds true for other cases, which I think it does (this case is a bit wonky, because we've got two abilities, each of which modify one die of you choice), Expertise seems to be superior to Predator in most other cases, Han and Dengar in particular.

However, the earlier point still stands; Veteran Instincts is the best choice unless you want to get shot down in 2 turns.

Expertise IS better than Predator unless you already mod eyes somehow.  It affects all dice, where Predator can only usually affect one, and both can stack the other modification from TL or Focus to do the other half of the job.  That's why Expertise costs a point more AND has a significant drawback.

But yeah, RAC needs VI more than either.  TL+RAC is the key thing to take account of.

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11 hours ago, BlackOne said:

Got it! I think you're right, and I also figured out my error. In my analysis, each of the modifiers were applied to a particular dice before it was hypothetically rolled. For example, I said that with Predator and RAC, you get 1 die with a 50% hit chance (unmodified), one with a 75% hit  chance (RAC), and another wit ha 75% hit chance (Predator). However, this is not how it is actually done; AFTER dice are rolled, the mods can me applied to whichever die you want. So your math is correct, and on RAC, Predator is superior to Expertise

Interestingly enough, I think this case is actually an exception. Assuming my math holds true for other cases, which I think it does (this case is a bit wonky, because we've got two abilities, each of which modify one die of you choice), Expertise seems to be superior to Predator in most other cases, Han and Dengar in particular.

However, the earlier point still stands; Veteran Instincts is the best choice unless you want to get shot down in 2 turns.

Exactly. Expertise + K4 can be quite filthy on Dengar.

 

And i agree, VI on RAC in the current meta.

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Not least because VI also lets him make better use of his engine upgrade - questions about shooting & Hotshot co-pilot/kylo ren aside, nothing helps him survive like a boost out of a ship's arc; all the modifiers and enemy-debuff abilities in the game are a poor substitute for not being shot at in the first place.

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Is the Meta really THAT depending on PS again? I mean, a Decimator is usually not going to dodge that many shots anyway (you know, big base and Agi 0) and the advantage of high PS is after all shooting first, not obliterating one Enemy per turn. 

I'm not trying to debate the validity of the claim, after all, it's not an argument that's difficult to get, its just making me kind of sad that a very valid choice to ensure attack efectiveness has to be shunted aside for VI on such a high PS Pilot anyway. At least it's one of those Pilots that modify dice on their own.

 

Edited by DampfGecko

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