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Zephyr12

Is the patrol wagon considered an item?

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"Does the First Officer concur?"

"Yes!  Absolutely!  I do indeed concur!  Wholeheartedly!"

".....a simple 'yes' would have sufficed, Number One."

"Not on the FFG Forums, sir."

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May I just ask a couple of questions related to the patrol wagon and the deputy?

I've just checked the Patrol wagon description on the Arkham wiki (http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Patrol_Wagon) and in the clarification it's said that you cant' use it to reach Devil reef. It seems to me that in a couple (of pages) of threads ago, talking about Yan'th'idontknow, someone (Tibs? can't remember, nor find the thread, so maybe my mind has gone definitely away) said that you can use the patrol wagon to reach Devil reef. Bad memory of mine?

Second thing: if I go insane, I have to discard half of my items. Supponing I have the deputy's revolver and another item with the same specification (I cannot lose it without my permission), may I keep both object anyway? by extension, should this mean that if I have 4 objects when going insane, and 2 of these cannot be lost nor stolen, should I decide that I'll sacrifice the 2 non sacrificable, and thus keep all 4 objects? it seems to me like forcing the game, I'm just curious! Ando sorry if it has been asked already thousands of times!

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I think that one of the other "Old Ones" (Avi, Dam, JGT) said that it's a shame that you can't drive the deputy wagon to Devil's Reef (or Y'ha-nthlei) but you can drive them back. Same goes for the Kingsport Head.

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Tibs said:

I think that one of the other "Old Ones" (Avi, Dam, JGT) said that it's a shame that you can't drive the deputy wagon to Devil's Reef (or Y'ha-nthlei) but you can drive them back. Same goes for the Kingsport Head.

Heretic demonio.gif ! I'm against Paddy Wagon for both going in and coming out of a non-connected area. Kingsport Head is at least connected to the rest of the world above ground (water).

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Ok, thank you for the answers (and yes, probably I'm aging too quickly, lol)! So, Devil reef e Y'nhan'thing are detatched from this world. If I come back from a journey through one (or both) of these locations, should I roll to see if I still have the Patrol wagon? Technically, they are not an OW (so I would say no), but their strange nature give tons of space to speculations...

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Dam said:

Tibs said:

 

I think that one of the other "Old Ones" (Avi, Dam, JGT) said that it's a shame that you can't drive the deputy wagon to Devil's Reef (or Y'ha-nthlei) but you can drive them back. Same goes for the Kingsport Head.

 

 

Heretic demonio.gif ! I'm against Paddy Wagon for both going in and coming out of a non-connected area. Kingsport Head is at least connected to the rest of the world above ground (water).

Hmmm, I have always played as Dam describes. Can't use it at all for DR or Yhanthingamajig (I'm glad someone besides me refuses or is incapable or both to learn how to spell that location) coming or going. However, Tibs raises an interesting point. I must study the board when I get home tonight. I feel my sanity slipping away already!

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Tibs said:

I think that one of the other "Old Ones" (Avi, Dam, JGT) said that it's a shame that you can't drive the deputy wagon to Devil's Reef (or Y'ha-nthlei) but you can drive them back. Same goes for the Kingsport Head.

Well, when you leave Kingsport Head you are bound to go downhill. You don't even have to use the engine. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Devil Reef boardspace says, “Investigators must end their movement upon entering Devil’s Reef.” Interpreted strictly by what’s written in black-and-white, there is nothing preventing you from using the Patrol Wagon to blip anywhere from Devil Reef.

Y’ha-nthlei boardspace says, “Investigators may only enter Y’ha-nthlei from Devil Reef or when returning from an Other World.” Again, strictly reading, there is nothing preventing you from blipping back to the mainland with the Patrol Wagon.

The Innsmouth Manual, Page 6, Devil Reef and Y’ha-nthlei: “These two locations…can only be reached by aquatic movement.” While this does thankfully prevent anyone from using the Patrol Wagon to get TO Devil Reef, still nothing prevents you from LEAVING either location with the Patrol Wagon.

Both intermediate locations on the Kingsport Head just say, “You must end your movement upon entering this location.” The Kingsport Manual only says “…may not move directly into any of the Kingsport Head locations using spells, equipment, or through other unusual methods, such as returning from being LiTaS.” Nothing about leaving either location.

There, that’s the nutshell. At present, it’s all down to personal preference as to how much or little you wish to abuse the Patrol Wagon.

Me, I find it ridiculous to use the Patrol Wagon as a amphibious hydrofoil or an all-terrain vehicle. Besides, how can you use it to get back/down from Devil Reef/Kingsport Head since you never got it over/up there in the first place?

“I drove it onto the Falcon Point Charter Boat.”  Don't be silly.  You’re lucky those charter boats float at all, much less carry a car.

“I brought it back from the Other World.” You don’t take the Patrol Wagon with you to Other Worlds. You leave it parked outside while you go inside the Witch House and disappear. The reason you have to roll for it once you get back is because the Sheldon Gang might have stripped and stolen it (or just beat the crap out of it).

********************************

Julia, regarding your second question: Not quite. You are designated to lose half your items, and therefore there is a number you must sacrifice if you are able. If everything you own “cannot be lost” (read up on the Innsmouth Investigator Finn the Bootlegger), then you can block the discard with every card. But any card without that discard-blocking clause is eligible to be part of that group that must be sacrificed.

And your other thought—if you have the Deputy Revolver, the Derringer, and two other items, can you use the first two to block losing the other two?—read the cards: “…cannot be lost…unless you choose to allow it.” If you CHOOSE to discard the Deputy Revolver to block losing another card, did you not just “choose to allow it”?

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I don't see anything that would stop you from using the Patrol Wagon to go to and from Devil Reef.  Y'ha-nethlei, yes (because of its text), but not Devil Reef.

I accept that it might not make 100% thematic sense that you can use a Paddy Wagon to go to an island but if we start forbidding things which don't make 100% thematic sense then quite a lot of the game will need to be ignored.

Until an official rules doc comes out saying no - preferably with an explanation - I'm going to continue playing it that you can.

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Stenun said:

I don't see anything that would stop you from using the Patrol Wagon to go to and from Devil Reef.  Y'ha-nethlei, yes (because of its text), but not Devil Reef.

Hmmm.  Try looking up one reply.  Allow me to be a bit more thorough:

Innsmouth Manual, Page 6, Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei: "These two locations are not connected to the rest of the Innsmouth board.  They can only be reached by aquatic movement.  Investigators can use the Falcon Point location ability to make aquatic moves as needed."

Unless you have something that reliably proves the Patrol Wagon is capable of "aquatic movement", I suggest you stop driving your car off the docks. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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jgt7771 said:

“I brought it back from the Other World.” You don’t take the Patrol Wagon with you to Other Worlds. You leave it parked outside while you go inside the Witch House and disappear. The reason you have to roll for it once you get back is because the Sheldon Gang might have stripped and stolen it (or just beat the crap out of it).

Do you mean if you have the Paddy Wagon and the investigator with it goes OW jaunting, gets "a monster appears" OW encounter, you don't roll for the Paddy Wagon as per the normal combat roll associated with it gui%C3%B1o.gif ?

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Dam said:

Do you mean if you have the Paddy Wagon and the investigator with it goes OW jaunting, gets "a monster appears" OW encounter, you don't roll for the Paddy Wagon as per the normal combat roll associated with it gui%C3%B1o.gif ?

 . . .

D'oh!

**** thematic-mechanic nonsense.

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jgt7771 said:

Stenun said:

I don't see anything that would stop you from using the Patrol Wagon to go to and from Devil Reef.  Y'ha-nethlei, yes (because of its text), but not Devil Reef.

 

Hmmm.  Try looking up one reply.  Allow me to be a bit more thorough:

Innsmouth Manual, Page 6, Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei: "These two locations are not connected to the rest of the Innsmouth board.  They can only be reached by aquatic movement.  Investigators can use the Falcon Point location ability to make aquatic moves as needed."

Unless you have something that reliably proves the Patrol Wagon is capable of "aquatic movement", I suggest you stop driving your car off the docks. gui%C3%B1o.gif

jgt7771 said:

Stenun said:

I don't see anything that would stop you from using the Patrol Wagon to go to and from Devil Reef.  Y'ha-nethlei, yes (because of its text), but not Devil Reef.

 

Hmmm.  Try looking up one reply.  Allow me to be a bit more thorough:

Innsmouth Manual, Page 6, Devil Reef and Y'ha-nthlei: "These two locations are not connected to the rest of the Innsmouth board.  They can only be reached by aquatic movement.  Investigators can use the Falcon Point location ability to make aquatic moves as needed."

Unless you have something that reliably proves the Patrol Wagon is capable of "aquatic movement", I suggest you stop driving your car off the docks. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Thee things ...

Firstly, I did look up one reply.  I read all the replies.  I disagree with you.  :-)  The first reason why I disagree with you is detailed in my second point.

Secondly, the cards over ride the rules.  This is a basic principle of any game.  Therefore, the rules you stated are over ridden by the text of Patrol Wagon which says: "If you are in Arkham, you may move to any street area or location in Arkham instead of your normal movement."  This clearly over rides the normal movement rules in the base game rulebook and I see no reason why it cannot over ride the rules you quoted, too.

Thirdly, if you are right then Silas Marsh cannot use his text to get there either.  His text is not explicitly "Aquatic Movement" therefore it doesn't work.  Nor does Mi-Go Brain Case.  etc.

Nor does returning from another world mean you can go to Devil Reef.  Returning from Yuggoth to Devil Reef via a gate is not aquatic movement, therefore according to the rules you quoted it shouldn't be possible.  However I think we all know that it is.  Therefore, simply put, there are exceptions to the rules you quoted.  I maintain that the Patrol Wagon is an exception, too.

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...but...

>sigh< Alright, you got me.  Before I came back to check the topic, even my own brain was calling me out: "What about Astral Travel, smart guy?  Weren't we just talking about Nightgaunts somewhere?  Isn't the Brain Case one of your favorite cards?  You twit.  You're just bitter about the shotgun crap."

Don't post angry. sad.gif

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Veet said:

Silas' power is aquatic movement as it specificaly affects aquatic areas, same as falcon point.

That's right. If you cut out Silas, you have to cut out Falcon Point. And we know for a fact that Falcon Point allows you to get to Devil's Reef.

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Veet said:

Silas' power is aquatic movement as it specificaly affects aquatic areas, same as falcon point.

Veet said:

Silas' power is aquatic movement as it specificaly affects aquatic areas, same as falcon point.

Where does it say that in the rules?  :-)

Aquatic Movement is a monster movement type.  Silas isn't a monster.  Yes, it keys off aquatic locations but that doesn't make it "aquatic movement".  The tecxt of Falcon Point isn't even "Aquatic Movement" - it just allows movement from Falcon Point to an aquatic location.  The only reason no one is genuinelly arguing that point is because it is clearly ridiculous  It is obvious that the intention was that you can use the text of Falcon Point to get to Devil Reef - but a strict reading of the rules doesn't allow it.

The only definition we have for "Aquatic Movement" is a movement type for monsters. 

Hence any attempt to restrict movement to Devil Reef by "Aquatic Movement" means no Investigator can ever go there.  So we have to make our own judgement, and I see no reason to not allow the Patrol Wagon.

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Here's a bit of text from the Innsmouth manual page six that's somewhat relevant to this discussion.

 

"Returning from Being Lost
in Time and Space
Investigators who are lost in time and space may choose to
return to a street area or location in Innsmouth, just as they
would return to an Arkham street area or location.
Exception: Investigators cannot return to Y’ha-nthlei
from Lost in Time and Space."

 

I thought that was kindof neat just because I didn't realize you *could* return from LITAS in Devil's Reef before now (sorry I guess that's probably old news to almost everyone else, I just didn't realize the implicit content of that passage before now).

 

"Devil Reef and Y’ha-nthlei
These two locations are not connected to the rest of the
Innsmouth board. They can only be reached by aquatic
movement. Investigators can use the Falcon Point location
ability to make aquatic moves as needed."

 

Okay...  First of all, a funny side note, the way this is written says that Y'ha-nthlei can only be reached by aquatic movement; however, and here's where it gets funny, you can only move to Y'ha-nthei from Devil's Reef ;'D  i.e. Silas is the only character who can go to Y'ha-nthlei (of course, clearly this was badly written and not what the writer intended to say, but I was still amused).

Sternum, you can play however you want, and hopefully the game designers will rule on this issue as you want it (even though I'm usually in favor of harsh rules implementations, this one strikes me as somewhat stupid if it can't be done).

Has there been an official ruling against the use of patrol wagon to get to Devil's Reef somewhere?  I just reread the proto-FAQ and it's not in there, but I'm convinced I heard somewhere that it's official.  Was it posted on BGG or something?

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Stenun said:

 

Where does it say that in the rules?  :-)

Aquatic Movement is a monster movement type.  Silas isn't a monster.  Yes, it keys off aquatic locations but that doesn't make it "aquatic movement".  The tecxt of Falcon Point isn't even "Aquatic Movement" - it just allows movement from Falcon Point to an aquatic location.  The only reason no one is genuinelly arguing that point is because it is clearly ridiculous  It is obvious that the intention was that you can use the text of Falcon Point to get to Devil Reef - but a strict reading of the rules doesn't allow it.

The only definition we have for "Aquatic Movement" is a movement type for monsters. 

Hence any attempt to restrict movement to Devil Reef by "Aquatic Movement" means no Investigator can ever go there.  So we have to make our own judgement, and I see no reason to not allow the Patrol Wagon.

But by that interpretation non aquatic monsters cant go there ether.

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So if the card overrides the rules, then you can take the car to Kingsport head, as the card is meant to overrule the rule that's clearly written there telling you that you can't do it.

I think you need to look at it as the patrol wagon was created first, so a rule that came after it (Kingsport head, aquatic movement) is clearly there in order to remove the ability of the patrol wagon to move into these locations.

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jgt7771 said:

Julia, regarding your second question: Not quite. You are designated to lose half your items, and therefore there is a number you must sacrifice if you are able. If everything you own “cannot be lost” (read up on the Innsmouth Investigator Finn the Bootlegger), then you can block the discard with every card. But any card without that discard-blocking clause is eligible to be part of that group that must be sacrificed.

And your other thought—if you have the Deputy Revolver, the Derringer, and two other items, can you use the first two to block losing the other two?—read the cards: “…cannot be lost…unless you choose to allow it.” If you CHOOSE to discard the Deputy Revolver to block losing another card, did you not just “choose to allow it”?

Thank you, JGT, for the answer. All very clear, and all very logical

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johnwatersfan said:

So if the card overrides the rules, then you can take the car to Kingsport head, as the card is meant to overrule the rule that's clearly written there telling you that you can't do it.

I think you need to look at it as the patrol wagon was created first, so a rule that came after it (Kingsport head, aquatic movement) is clearly there in order to remove the ability of the patrol wagon to move into these locations.

The cards over ride rhe rules, the board over rides the rules, any game component over rides the rules.  There are loads of other game components that over ride the rules.  The text on Chaugnar Fagn about only removing a maximum of 3 doom tokens from him per turn over rides the rules.  The text on Nodens over rides the rules on the outskirts.  The text on Summoning Glass over rides the rules about encounters, etc.

 

As for the Kingsport Head locations ... the rule book says:  " ... nvestigators may not  move directly into any of the Kingsport Head locations using spells, equipment, or through other unusual methods such as returning from being Lost In Time And Space".  The prohibition against the Patrol Wagon is quite clear.

The problem with moving to Devil Reef is that it is NOT clearly prohibited.  The rules merely say that "[it] can only be reached by aquatic movement".  Which, as I pointed out above, has no definition for Investigators.  Aquatic movement is a movement type for monsters.  Silas Marsh using his text to move to Devil Reef from, for example, River Docks is not aquatic movement.  Nor is the Mi-Go Brain Case or Call Friend.  Nor is returning from another world.  Coming out an open gate that is on Devil Reef is not "aquatic movement".  The rules clearly don't mean to stop that.  Therefore it's obvious, at least I think it is, that "aquatic movement" is not being used in this context in a prohibitive manner but rather a descriptive one.  However others have chosen to believe that "aquatic movement" in this case refers to ... well, some things they want it to refer to but not to other things they don't want it to refer to *shrugs*.  I can only imagine that the old "rule against the Investigators" mindset has reared its ugly head again.

As for Y'ha-nthlei, however, it clearly says "nvestigators may only enter Y'ha-nthlei from Devil Reef or when returning to Arkham from an Other World, regardless of other game effects".  Again, like Kingsport Head, this clearly prohibits the Patrol Wagon which comes under "other game effects" as do Call Friend, Mi-Go Brain Case, Silas Marsh and so on.

But there is NO such prohibition for Devil Reef.

 

 

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It says in the rulebook that Devil Reef can only be reached by aquatic movement. You're saying that isn't defined, but aquatic movement does have a definition for investigators. In the Innsmouth rulebook, right after that, it says "Investigators can use the Falcon Point location ability to make aquatic moves as needed", and it defines what an aquatic move is on the text for Falcon Point. It just so happens that Silas can make aquatic moves without an investigator using Falcon Point.  I think the intent is pretty clearly disallowing the patrol wagon. You can use the wagon to get to Falcon Point, but then have to charter a boat.

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