Minefield Mapper and Extra Munitions

[player2641873 1]

2 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Why do you think that? I can't see any kind of X-Wing specific definition of it in the rules and I don't see any possible interaction it could have with Munitions tokens.

The 'corresponding bomb tokens' language is significant because the interpretation makes a 2 for 1 difference in the number of bombs that can be placed, and no that does not interact with the ordnance token, that interacts with the bomb upgrade card; the ordnance token just adds another bomb token(s) that must correspond with the bomb upgrade card.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

So... is your assertion that each bomb upgrade comes with one and only one bomb token (or set, for cluster mines) and cannot be used with any other copy of that token?

Is THAT your problem?

[player2641873 1]

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

So... is your assertion that each bomb upgrade comes with one and only one bomb token (or set, for cluster mines) and cannot be used with any other copy of that token?

Is THAT your problem?

No, that seems to be your problem.

[__underscore__ 1,093]

5 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

The 'corresponding bomb tokens' language is significant because the interpretation makes a 2 for 1 difference in the number of bombs that can be placed

That's not what I mean by significant - I mean: why do you think it means anything other than it's dictionary definition. That's how it's used in all other cases in the rulebook.

5 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

the ordnance token just adds another bomb token(s) that must correspond with the bomb upgrade card.

That is incorrect, the Ordnance token has no effect unless the card is going to be discarded. It has no interaction or significance in terms of the bomb tokens themselves.

Edited July 14, 2017 by __underscore__

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

7 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

No, that seems to be your problem.

What?

No.

I do not have that problem, what on earth gave you that idea?

 

E: so again, please explain what your issue is with this sequence:

Activate Minefield Mapper.

Choose any number of your equipped bombs (noting that it's not possible to choose a number of equipped bombs that is greater than the number you have equipped, as some people seem to want to).

Discard the chosen cards.  EM tokens intervene and are discarded instead of the cards.  The bomb tokens still correspond to the chosen cards, this hasn't changed.

Place the bomb tokens anywhere on the board outside range three of your opponent's ships.

Minefield Mapper has been activated, carry on with the game.

Please explain.

Don't ask another question, explain your position.

Unless you do that, it's just not possible to understand what the heck you're talking about.

Edited July 14, 2017 by thespaceinvader

[player2641873 1]

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

That's not what I mean by significant - I mean: why do you think it means anything other than it's dictionary definition. That's how it's used in all other cases in the rulebook.

That is incorrect, the Ordnance token has no effect unless the card is going to be discarded. It has no interaction or significance in terms of the bomb tokens themselves.

Are you saying that bombs are not equipped to the ship and magically appear when needed?  If you are not saying that, then all the bomb tokens that can be utilized during the game are assigned to their ships during setup; even those bomb tokens that represent the additional munitions from the EM card/ordnance token, and all of those bomb tokens must correspond with equipped bomb upgrade cards.

[player2641873 1]

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

What?

No.

I do not have that problem, what on earth gave you that idea?

I have been the one arguing that a bomb upgrade card comes with a particular bomb token(s) and if it is assigned an ordnance token it gets an additional bomb token(s) of the same type (another corresponding bomb token) that CAN also be used with that bomb upgrade card.  You have been arguing against that! 

[__underscore__ 1,093]

1 minute ago, player2641873 said:

Are you saying that bombs are not equipped to the ship and magically appear when needed?

That is correct. Except for the magic bit - it's just an effect of triggering a bomb upgrade card. 

It's the card that's equipped, not the token. That's where you're going wrong.

[player2641873 1]

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

That is correct. Except for the magic bit - it's just an effect of triggering a bomb upgrade card. 

It's the card that's equipped, not the token. That's where you're going wrong.

The 'bomb' cards are equipped, and the bomb tokens are assigned to the ship when the cards are equipped.

[__underscore__ 1,093]

1 minute ago, player2641873 said:

The 'bomb' cards are equipped, and the bomb tokens are assigned to the ship when the cards are equipped.

I'm looking all over the rules reference, but I can't see any indication of that. If you could give me a page or quote that would be useful.

[player2641873 1]

19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

What?

No.

I do not have that problem, what on earth gave you that idea?

 

E: so again, please explain what your issue is with this sequence:

Activate Minefield Mapper.

Choose any number of your equipped bombs (noting that it's not possible to choose a number of equipped bombs that is greater than the number you have equipped, as some people seem to want to).

Discard the chosen cards.  EM tokens intervene and are discarded instead of the cards.  The bomb tokens still correspond to the chosen cards, this hasn't changed.

Place the bomb tokens anywhere on the board outside range three of your opponent's ships.

Minefield Mapper has been activated, carry on with the game.

Please explain.

Don't ask another question, explain your position.

Unless you do that, it's just not possible to understand what the heck you're talking about.

As I have said before 'bomb drop timing' is irrelevant to MM!!!  ALL CORRESPONDING BOMB TOKENS are placed in the play area.  That includes the corresponding bomb tokens that are available due to the extra munitions upgrade card.

[player2641873 1]

7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I'm looking all over the rules reference, but I can't see any indication of that. If you could give me a page or quote that would be useful.

If they are not assigned to the ship, where are they?

[InquisitorM 632]

Just now, player2641873 said:

If they are not assigned to the ship, where are they?

Nowhere. They are not part of the game until called upon. There is no such thing as a bomb token corresponding to a munitions token.

Manoeuvre templates would be an equivalent. There are certain templates that a ship can use, but they're never assigned to any ship. They are a game component that a player brings with them. So are bomb tokens.

[__underscore__ 1,093]

4 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

If they are not assigned to the ship, where are they?

In a pile on the table...

But it still doesn't matter - each upgrade card only refers to a single bomb token.

[player2641873 1]

2 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

In a pile on the table...

But it still doesn't matter - each upgrade card only refers to a single bomb token.

The extra bomb tokens are still available for use just as the first ones are and have to correspond to the bomb upgrade cards just as the first ones do. 

[__underscore__ 1,093]

Just now, player2641873 said:

The extra bomb tokens are still available for use just as the first ones are and have to correspond to the bomb upgrade cards just as the first ones do. 

What extra bomb tokens?

[InquisitorM 632]

Agreed. Is the number of bomb tokens you bring to the game in any way relevant?

[player2641873 1]

9 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Nowhere. They are not part of the game until called upon. There is no such thing as a bomb token corresponding to a munitions token.

Manoeuvre templates would be an equivalent. There are certain templates that a ship can use, but they're never assigned to any ship. They are a game component that a player brings with them. So are bomb tokens.

I am not saying that a bomb token corresponds to a "munitions' token.  I am saying that a bomb token can only correspond to a bomb upgrade card and must  do so, even those bomb tokens that are available for use because of the EM upgrade. 

[player2641873 1]

4 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

What extra bomb tokens?

The extra bomb tokens that are made available to use by the EM upgrade.

[player2641873 1]

5 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Agreed. Is the number of bomb tokens you bring to the game in any way relevant?

If you don't bring enough, you can't use them.

[__underscore__ 1,093]

2 minutes ago, player2641873 said:

The extra bomb tokens that are made available to use by the EM upgrade.

The EM upgrade doesn't refer to any bomb tokens.

When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped Torpedoes, Missiles, and Bomb Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

EM tokens do *nothing* except discard themselves instead of the card they're on, when that card would be discarded.

Player2641873, you are making things up.

Do what the card says.  Do not do what the card does not say.

[InquisitorM 632]

What this seems to come down to this this:

20 hours ago, player2641873 said:

when I equip a bomb upgrade card to my ship, I am also equipping a corresponding bomb token

No. That is not the case. You don't assign target lock to a shop pre-game because it has the TL action on its action bar, nor focus or evade tokens. There are tokens and there are effects that generate tokens. 'Corresponding token' just means that there are multiple possible tokens that could be created and you should use the one appropriate to that card. If you discard a Conner Net, use a Connor Net token. If you discard a Proximity Mine, use a Proximity Mine token. At no point were these tokens ever equipped to anything. They come from the token pool, just as focus, evade, TL, shield, stress, reinforce, energy, etc, tokens so.

20 hours ago, player2641873 said:

Therefore a bomb upgrade card with an ordnance token assigned to it has twice as many corresponding bomb tokens as the same bomb upgrade card without the ordnance token.

No. This is the demonstration of you not understand what 'corresponding' means. There can only ever be one corresponding token for a Connor Ntt, and that is the Connor Net token. If I reveal a 4↑ manoeuvre, the corresponding template is the straight template four small bases in length, usually with the number 4 printed on it.

And if I have six Connor Nets equipped to my squad, there is still only one corresponding token: the Connor Net Token. I can have six copies of the correct corresponding token, but that's not the same as having six different corresponding tokens. This is a linguistic error that appears to have gotten way out of hand.

Hopefully it will make more sense if I reword it thus:

Quote

During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped [bomb] upgrade cards. Place all appropriate bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships.

Does that make it clearer?

Edited July 14, 2017 by InquisitorM

[Thormind 565]

On 2017-06-26 at 1:38 PM, sharrrp said:

After mulling this over a bit I'd say you can only deploy one set which you would discard the munition tokens on and still have the others for gameplay.

I'm basing that on the "once per opportinity" rule for abilities. The mapper says discard your bomb upgrades. The EM says you can discard the token when you are instructed to discard the card. The tokens are tokens they are not cards. So if you have 2 bomb cards you can trigger the mapper on one, both, or neither during setup, but only once.  You have 2 bomb upgrades so you can deploy 2. EM means you can ditch the tokens instead of cards but there's nothing to allow you to trigger either bomb a second time.

A) Only way this would make sense is if you consider that discarding a token is using the "extra ammo" card. If thats the case then when you have 2 bomb cards and 2 tokens, you would be able to use only 1 token. There is only 1 extra ammo card, so discarding both tokens would be like using extra ammo twice...

B) The other interpretation: Extra ammo says that discarding a token is exactly the same thing as discarding the upgrade card. You can discard any number of card so you can deploy 3 sets of bombs.

Another example: If you think the option A is valid then you cant use a token to drop a bomb (pre maneuver) and use a token to shoot a missile in the same round...

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

9 minutes ago, Thormind said:

A) Only way this would make sense is if you consider that discarding a token is using the "extra ammo" card. If thats the case then when you have 2 bomb cards and 2 tokens, you would be able to use only 1 token. There is only 1 extra ammo card, so discarding both tokens would be like using extra ammo twice...

B) The other interpretation: Extra ammo says that discarding a token is exactly the same thing as discarding the upgrade card. You can discard any number of card so you can deploy 3 sets of bombs.

Another example: If you think the option A is valid then you cant use a token to drop a bomb (pre maneuver) and use a token to shoot a missile in the same round...

Everything you have written here is wrong.

Can someone please close and lock this thread? There is zero value to it. At this point, we're just showcasing a variety of new reading comprehension errors.

It at the very least qualifies as a frequently asked question. FFG will be the only folks able to convince a large population what the correct usage is (or errata it, if they truly intended something different).

Edited July 14, 2017 by ArbitraryNerd