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Light Scyk Sunny Bounder

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7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

 

There's some debate about whether it actually works.  You can spend the TL for no effect, but you didn't actually reroll any dice for Sunny's ability to trigger.

Um... you do have a point there.

My mind had automatically made the association based on Dutch combined with R5-K6, but that combo is based on acquiring and spending target locks and not on actually rolling any dice.  I'll submit the question to FFG.

 

Thanks for pointing it out!

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19 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You didn't pick up any dice and reroll them.  Like I said, it's open to debate unless/until they FAQ it.

I'll gladly pick up a die or 6 and make the hand motion of rerolling without dropping said die or dice if that's what you require.  Would that satisfy your oddly specific idea of "rerolling"?

Edited by Rakky Wistol

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Spend a targetlock and reroll any number of your dice.
I choose 0
I have rerolled 0, thus Sunny triggers.

I highly doubt this would ever get "nerfed" seeing as how its just a PS1 squishy shmuck with a fancy move.

The lack of "Reroll 1 or more" clause makes this work. Only thing you can argue against it is common sense stuff or "intended behavior" which means absolutely nothing in a tournament.
Technically Sunny triggers off rolling 0 dice too, but obviously that doesnt do anything since adding 0 to 0 is still 0.

Edited by Vineheart01

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1 minute ago, Rakky Wistol said:

I'll gladly pick up a die or 6 and make the hand motion of rerolling without dropping said die or dice if that's what you require.  Would that satisfy your oddly specific idea of "rerolling"?

No, because making hand motions isn't rerolling dice.  I'm not saying it 100% doesn't work, but it's the argument for why it might not.  

You can choose to reroll 0 dice, but when you do so, you don't actually reroll any dice.

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2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

No, because making hand motions isn't rerolling dice.  I'm not saying it 100% doesn't work, but it's the argument for why it might not.  

You can choose to reroll 0 dice, but when you do so, you don't actually reroll any dice.

By choosing to reroll 0 dice, I have, in fact, rerolled 0 dice. Not any, just 0. 

Edited by Rakky Wistol

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Uses best LOTR voice "12 points to troll them all".

I might crack open my Interceptors again.  I ran a list with bottle rockets that was fun (my name for proton rockets), and Sunny would be an interesting add.

I have three opened, and maybe 1-2 extras in my "I'll get around to playing them" bin.  Bought a lot, mainly because I was hoping to use these game mechanics for space combat when I run a Star Wars RPG again.

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2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

No, because making hand motions isn't rerolling dice.  I'm not saying it 100% doesn't work, but it's the argument for why it might not.  

You can choose to reroll 0 dice, but when you do so, you don't actually reroll any dice.

You don't have to re-roll "any" dice, or "no" dice, or "any amount". You choose an exact numeric amount, in this case 0, and you have to re-roll exactly that amount, in this case 0 dice. Otherwise you'd be cheating.

So if you re-roll 0 dice you've followed the rules. Leaving the mathematical logic now that we've identified the exact nature of the re-roll, we return to the practical world. How does one "re-roll 0 dice"?

It seems the an accurate description would be: "pick up the correct number of dice and randomize their facing, then release the dice on a hard surface until each has only a single side is facing upward."

By that criteria, when choosing 0 you should:

1. Pick up 0 dice.

2. Randomize the facing of 0 dice.

3. Wait until each of the 0 dice have settled and read the results of each of the 0 dice. (Which would be instantaneous)

4. Apply results to the attack or defense totals.

 

If you have a different definition of roll, we can definitely discuss it. I couldn't find anything specific in the rulebook about what was considered a "roll"

Edited by benbaxter

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Interestingly the rules reference and faq word it differnetly.  FAQ says you can spend a TL to reroll 0 dice, RR says you can spend a TL and not reroll any dice.

Also, the RR defines rerolling dice specifically as:

 

xAgIyu4.png

If you choose to "reroll 0" (or not reroll any as the RR says), you haven't picked up any dice and rolled them again, so you haven't rerolled dice for Sunny's ability.

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7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Interestingly the rules reference and faq word it differnetly.  FAQ says you can spend a TL to reroll 0 dice, RR says you can spend a TL and not reroll any dice.

Also, the RR defines rerolling dice specifically as:

 

xAgIyu4.png

If you choose to "reroll 0" (or not reroll any as the RR says), you haven't picked up any dice and rolled them again, so you haven't rerolled dice for Sunny's ability.

I doesn't matter if you haven't picked any dice up, it only states if the results are the same you add another result.  When the condition states "roll or reroll", it means during that part of the steps, so spending a target lock to reroll 0 would work, in my interpretation of course.

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2 minutes ago, Moneyinvolved said:

I doesn't matter if you haven't picked any dice up, it only states if the results are the same you add another result.  When the condition states "roll or reroll", it means during that part of the steps, so spending a target lock to reroll 0 would work, in my interpretation of course.

Refilling, per the picture, says to pick up the dice being rerolled and roll them. If you "reroll 0 dice", you didn't pick up and reroll any dice per the above rule, so you...didn't rerroll for her ability. 

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"A ship can spend a target lock and choose not to
reroll any dice." - Page 3 Rules Reference

"Spending a Target Lock: If the attacker
has a target lock on the defender, he may return
the pair of target lock tokens to the supply to
reroll one or more attack dice of his choice." - Page 12 Learn to play

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack
dice." Page 7 of the FAQ

There are the 3 mentions of spending a target lock.

I would argue the FAQ's interpretation is just another wording of the Rules Reference meaning you can spend a target lock and do nothing with it (roll 0 dice). If you want to re-roll dice you have to do it with 1 or more dice (as the Learn to play has it written).

If you re-rolled 0 attack dice then nothing has been re-rolled and therefore his ability does not work as it required dice to be rolled or re-rolled. Sunny's ability is not "spend a target lock" its roll or re-roll dice, I personally think re-rolling 0 dice is not rolling or re-rolling dice and would rule it that way in a tournament I TO.

If no dice have been rolled or re-rolled then his ability does not work... have any dice been rolled or re-rolled if you spend a target lock to re-roll 0 dice? no they have not it does not work.

Until an FAQ says otherwise if this comes up in any tournament I run the result is no the ability does not work.

Edited by Icelom

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2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Refilling, per the picture, says to pick up the dice being rerolled and roll them. If you "reroll 0 dice", you didn't pick up and reroll any dice per the above rule, so you...didn't rerroll for her ability. 

You keep saying any.

I can pick up and reroll 0 dice.  I'm doing it right now.

Can I pick up 0 dice?  Why yes I can. 

Can I reroll 0 dice? Ditto. 

Why are you confused by this?

Edited by Rakky Wistol

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51 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

You keep saying any.

I can pick up and reroll 0 dice.  I'm doing it right now.

Can I pick up 0 dice?  Why yes I can. 

Can I reroll 0 dice? Ditto. 

Why are you confused by this?

because you..didn't reroll dice.

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16 hours ago, Moneyinvolved said:

squad leader is an option

If you want a nice, cheap support ship in a scyk squad, a Squad Leader/Light Scyk Serissu is an option now. She hands out a free action, plus a defense reroll. Granted, she's fairly easily killable if she does (an agility 3 ship with no tokens) but then your opponent is shooting her, not her buddy. When you've got three heavies with cannons whaling on you, do you really want to by spending shots killing the light?

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the best filler ship for scum no doubt. As for ability I would go with focus over target lock. The ability only works once per round. Also getting double focus is the same as getting double hit. If it was a 3 die attack (range 1) then maybe I would chose target lock but it would be hard to decide (pilot skill 1 remember).

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Within the academic field known as Philosophy of Mathematics, it is observed that there is more than one way that people use the number zero. The confusion about Sunny Bounder's ability is caused by the presence of at least two different and perfectly legitimate uses going on here.

It seems perfectly natural for me to say that there is no number of banthas in my bedroom.

It also seems perfectly natural for me to say that the exact number of banthas in my bedroom is zero.

Clear rules are a good thing for a competitive game, but the multiple homonymous meanings of zero causes the word to be ambiguous. How are we meant to interpret the word in this context?

Until an FAQ or errata clears up the ambiguity in this case, I suggest, as far as possible, following the general precedent of allowing the more permissive interpretation, so long as it is a legitimate interpretation according to the other rules. Since the FAQ specifically says you can reroll 0 dice, I would say that Sunny's ability works in that situation.

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8 hours ago, Icelom said:

"A ship can spend a target lock and choose not to
reroll any dice." - Page 3 Rules Reference

"Spending a Target Lock: If the attacker
has a target lock on the defender, he may return
the pair of target lock tokens to the supply to
reroll one or more attack dice of his choice." - Page 12 Learn to play

"When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack
dice." Page 7 of the FAQ

There are the 3 mentions of spending a target lock.

I would argue the FAQ's interpretation is just another wording of the Rules Reference meaning you can spend a target lock and do nothing with it (roll 0 dice). If you want to re-roll dice you have to do it with 1 or more dice (as the Learn to play has it written).

If you re-rolled 0 attack dice then nothing has been re-rolled and therefore his ability does not work as it required dice to be rolled or re-rolled. Sunny's ability is not "spend a target lock" its roll or re-roll dice, I personally think re-rolling 0 dice is not rolling or re-rolling dice and would rule it that way in a tournament I TO.

If no dice have been rolled or re-rolled then his ability does not work... have any dice been rolled or re-rolled if you spend a target lock to re-roll 0 dice? no they have not it does not work.

Until an FAQ says otherwise if this comes up in any tournament I run the result is no the ability does not work.

FAQ > Rules Reference > Learn to play, no?

That being the case... I would come to the opposite conclusion as you. The first point brought up would support your interpretation, by my reading. Spending a target lock and "choosing not to reroll any dice" suggests that the reroll never occurred, thus not engaging Sunny's ability. The last point, from the FAQ, which supersedes the rules reference, makes it pretty clear that RAW Sunny should engage on a bald target lock spend: "When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack
dice." You have engaged a reroll, chosen to reroll 0 dice, Sunny's coolguy ability kicks in. Helpful of you to collect these, as this is definitely murky-wording issue, but the evidence you presented bears the opposite interpretation than the one you have reached yourself.

1 hour ago, Incard said:

Within the academic field known as Philosophy of Mathematics, it is observed that there is more than one way that people use the number zero. The confusion about Sunny Bounder's ability is caused by the presence of at least two different and perfectly legitimate uses going on here.

It seems perfectly natural for me to say that there is no number of banthas in my bedroom.

It also seems perfectly natural for me to say that the exact number of banthas in my bedroom is zero.

Clear rules are a good thing for a competitive game, but the multiple homonymous meanings of zero causes the word to be ambiguous. How are we meant to interpret the word in this context?

Until an FAQ or errata clears up the ambiguity in this case, I suggest, as far as possible, following the general precedent of allowing the more permissive interpretation, so long as it is a legitimate interpretation according to the other rules. Since the FAQ specifically says you can reroll 0 dice, I would say that Sunny's ability works in that situation.

 Herein lies the problem, laid bare and well spoken, with the rules of this game as written.

To cut to the core of the issue, Light Syck Sunny Bounder is completely radical.

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9 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Refilling, per the picture, says to pick up the dice being rerolled and roll them. If you "reroll 0 dice", you didn't pick up and reroll any dice per the above rule, so you...didn't rerroll for her ability. 

Sunny's text reads "Once per round, after you roll or reroll dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result".  It doesn't matter if you pick up 4 and reroll them or reroll 0, the condition to add another result is that all the pictures on each of your dice match.  Rolling 0 dice is a perfectly legal choice when spending a target lock.  After that Target lock reroll of 0 dice, all of your results match, thus triggering the added result.

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7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

because you..didn't reroll dice.

I rerolled 0 dice. I can reroll 0 dice all day long.

And your rules quote actually says "die" not "dice". Do you also insist that all rerolls done in your presence are singular? Or would that break your very, oddly, obsessively specific version of rerolling? 

By that very specific definition I could also pick up the die between 2 fingers and roll it between my fingers and show you a face (probably of my choosing). The rule does not mention spin, distance traveled, having to leave the appendage that picked it up, landing on a table surface, or really even having to stop moving.

Did I pick up the die? Yes. 

Did the die roll? Yes.

When people get weirdly specific, things start getting really weird.

Did I pick up the die? Yes. 

Did I place it in that rock timber? Sure did. 

Did I turn it on? Yep. 

Did the die roll? Lots of times.

Does that satisfy the conditions laid out? Yep.  

Is it really loud and obnoxious to play a game with a rock tumbler rolling next to it? That would depend on what your definition of "is" is.

Wouldn't it be easier to accept that 0 as a concept is valid for the game based on space wizards, laser swords, and a universe where in space everyone can hear you scream?

 

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As i mentioned earlier, the only argument is "common sense" and "intended behavior" which are strictly OPINIONS and have no weight in RAW discussions.

In the confines of this game, rerolling 0 dice is 100% valid and legal. Does it make sense? No, but thats not the point. Its a scenario in the game rules that exists, whether you like it or not.

You can argue all day long that you have to actually reroll a physical die to count as rerolling to get Sunny's ability. But, since Sunny does not specify 1 or more dice then that argument holds no weight and is moot.

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