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Which "sacred cows" are you hoping get abandoned?

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I will freely admit that I don't care that duels are this way on the battlefield, because in our entire L5R career, we had 0 game sessions that involved actual battlefield during an actual military engagement with players in a role of actual soldiers.

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6 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

A) I want at least one other clan to see some void shugenja support, it's the no elemental weakness of the Isawa, and the pursuit of peaks of scholarly knowledge that make the Phoenix interesting, not having a monopoly on educating a specific flavour of magic.

You know, I've always thought it odd that the Kitsu didn't have at least a little void magic. They're descended from creatures with an intrinsic connection to the void, after all.

Admittedly, the void element doesn't really mesh well with the philosophy of the Lion... but that just makes it more interesting to see what they would do with it.

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15 minutes ago, Fumi said:

You know, I've always thought it odd that the Kitsu didn't have at least a little void magic. They're descended from creatures with an intrinsic connection to the void, after all.

Admittedly, the void element doesn't really mesh well with the philosophy of the Lion... but that just makes it more interesting to see what they would do with it.

At Winter Court 4, this was part of the logic I used to justify my character trading the Phoenix's Ishiken Training resource to the Lion (it also helped that the Lion were pretty much the only Clan who had our back from day one, but the Kitsu/Void connection was definitely a factor).

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9 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I'd like to junk the notion that only dishonorable people engage in intelligence work. Every bloody Great Clan (and the Minor Clans who can afford it) would have an intelligence network to keep them informed about what's going on in their own lands and other people's. The vast majority of "spying" is just about having people who keep an eye on what's happening and send in reports. Nothing dishonorable about that; it's simple pragmatism.

 

 

I can agree with the notion of Intellegence work not being inherently dishonorable.

Of course, outside of military matters (including shadowlands scouting), social means (the courts), and the stuff the Scorpion get up to, 'intellegence work' is probably some bureaucrat at desk coallating reports. (just like IRL)

All the 'sexy' spy work is probably carried by paid agents (peasants, ronin) who have little idea what they're actually doing, or who for.

And the trained specialists of course. (lLions Shadow, The Shosuro schools)

So yes, 'Intellegence' could use a better, more balanced, presentation going forward,

Will we get it?  *shrug*

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9 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I can agree with the notion of Intellegence work not being inherently dishonorable.

Of course, outside of military matters (including shadowlands scouting), social means (the courts), and the stuff the Scorpion get up to, 'intellegence work' is probably some bureaucrat at desk coallating reports. (just like IRL)

I agree with this, but with a caveat, because it leads us into another interesting question.

As you point out, every clan probably has intelligence agencies, because any large organisation run by sensible adults will have such a thing. For the same reason they'll probably all have traders, monks, cavalry raiders, duelists, courtiers, yojimbo for shugenja, tacticians, and a dozen other specialities too.

However, I'm not sure that a card game has space to represent all of these groups in every clan without overpowering the clan themes. In a sense it's a tradeoff between the two; not a binary choice but a sliding scale.

As an RPG player, I'd like the clans to feel well-rounded. I can make a Hida iajitsu duelist if I like, or a Doji tactical genius. These sorts of people almost certainly exist in Rokugan, and it would be interesting to see such characters exist in the LCG too.

On the other hand, as someone who's played a bunch of CCGs, I'd like the clans to feel pure. Magic the Gathering would be far worse if every colour had equal access to vigilance, trample, haste and flying; similarly L5R feels better when clans have things they can't do.

Where on this scale do you think is a good place to be?

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6 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

A few points about Iaijutsu and its role in the setting:

I disagree with the complaint about everything boiling down to first blood or to the death: I think that is appropriate. Either the participants are trying to seriously injure/kill each other, or they are not. That is how I understand the distinction in the setting. There are no formal duels 'to the death' in the sense that neither party can surrender and one must die, the way I understand the setting. Rather, if the duelists are not trying to make it non-lethal, than it is very likely to be lethal, because swords are super dangerous.

I think the RPG had a bit of a negative influence on people's understanding of how Iaijutsu works as well. Because the RPG has the schools, and the schools have different bonuses and some of them are better than others at winning Iaijutsu duels, people came to the conclusion that some clans were just unstoppable and always won those types of duels. But I notice that people never took that to the full conclusion, that Shiba Bushi were the best duelists (although in the iterations of the RPG I saw, they were). But in the broader fictional setting, it is clear that not every champion duelist was Kakita or Mirumoto. Indeed it is pretty clear even from the RPG materials that the REPUTATION of the Kakita academy is unparalleled, but the reality doesn't always live up to the hype. 

So in my understanding of the setting, any trained samurai has the potential to do well in Iaijutsu, and any clan can win: the Kakita and Mirumoto have a stellar reputation, and maybe their training focuses on dueling a little more, but when actual samurai fight actual duels a Bayushi or Akodo Bushi is just about as likely to come out on top as anyone else.

Furthermore, in actual battle and skirmishes, duels are always Kenjutsu, so that's more important in the real world rather than the courts. And any bushi school can win at kenjutsu.

 

To Clarify: 

- By saying there "are no formal duels to the death," are you saying that participants have the option to withdraw/submit?

- Yes, in the fiction not every champion duelist was a Kakita or a Mirumoto. Their training implies an expertise, not dominance. Just like the Akodo and warfare (written by the Ikoma). Expertise, not dominance. 

- I wouldn't say a Bayushi or Akodo are "just as likely to come out on top". I think it makes more sense to say that the probability favours the Kakita or Mirumoto, but this does not deny the possibility. Meaning, the average Kakita's training probably garner's a 50%+ probability (let's say 55%). So, better than average in the duels they enter.  

 

Speaking strictly with regards to the fiction, and not the RPG mechanics: I think wanting to see more interplay in formal duels is fair. WHW may just be looking for more during that interaction. However, that interplay has to account for the damage done on the first strike. Or, account for why the expert duelist will relinquish his/her advantage in said duels in order to begin a kenjutsu match. 

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1 hour ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

I agree with this, but with a caveat, because it leads us into another interesting question.

As you point out, every clan probably has intelligence agencies, because any large organisation run by sensible adults will have such a thing. For the same reason they'll probably all have traders, monks, cavalry raiders, duelists, courtiers, yojimbo for shugenja, tacticians, and a dozen other specialities too.

However, I'm not sure that a card game has space to represent all of these groups in every clan without overpowering the clan themes. In a sense it's a tradeoff between the two; not a binary choice but a sliding scale.

As an RPG player, I'd like the clans to feel well-rounded. I can make a Hida iajitsu duelist if I like, or a Doji tactical genius. These sorts of people almost certainly exist in Rokugan, and it would be interesting to see such characters exist in the LCG too.

On the other hand, as someone who's played a bunch of CCGs, I'd like the clans to feel pure. Magic the Gathering would be far worse if every colour had equal access to vigilance, trample, haste and flying; similarly L5R feels better when clans have things they can't do.

Where on this scale do you think is a good place to be?

I think this will depend on how long the LCG lasts. If they get to the point of adding more keywords to the cards we could start seeing a little branch out from stereotypes.  

However the ccg never really got away from Clan Stereotype Shorthand (Otaku=Shiotome,Kakita=3/4 duelist bushi 1/4 courtier erc).  The LCG will likely be the same.

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Sacred cows. Right.

 

  • Daigotsu needs to stay away. For all that AEG insisted that Daigotsu wasn't a Mary Sue, he had no real weaknesses, easily showed up equivalent characters from other clans, and warped the game and story around him so much that he was essentially the main character following Toturi's death. By the time he became the master of Jigoku, he was easily the most divisive character in L5R. Granted, much of what he did in story was arguably necessary, such as providing a face to the Shadowlands or adding some depth to it via the Lost, but at this point he'd alienate as many players as he'd bring to the table. 
  • Story wins need to advance the clan in some way. I'd have thought this obvious, but stories right up until the end of AEG's run ran the other way, be it with tournaments to see which clan's characters get forever corrupted into ridiculous caricatures as Dark Oracles or simply set up as questionably competent, such as Shosuro Jimen's endless and pointless reign as Emerald Champion. Even the Shadowlands got smacked by this with the Celestial Jitte. Victories should still come at costs, but if there's no gain at all, or worse, people can troll by "winning" and screwing a clan for it, we have less reason to play. Speaking of trolling...
  • Please, no more "save, corrupt, or kill" tournaments. Every time AEG trotted these out, they were supposedly about players picking which members of their clans they wanted to see more of, but were ultimately just means for players to screw over clans and characters they didn't like. It's one thing to have an event that causes widespread corruption, like the Rain of Blood, but it's quite another to shrug off responsibility and tell the players it's on them to pick who's victim. If something that big happens in the story, it should be the story team's duty to show how it affects each clan, not the players' to figure out how to make it annoy everyone.
  • The Kolat represented the worst of both worlds in terms of AEG's storytelling. Corruption was simple -- use Kolat cards, or just have a character turn out to be Kolat, but dealing with them involved AEG actually deigning to allow players to do something about them. They were a drag on the story for this reason alone, since the limited interaction typically meant detracting from the story around them. Excepting Hidden Emperor, all the Kolat did in the story was act like cartoon villains, mucking things up without contributing to a greater storyline.
  • No takebacks, please. The story occasionally calls for such by its very nature, such as Emerald Champions dying off or Daigotsu wanting his ancestral sword after the Crab had won it, but sometimes these are just redundant. We don't need yet another Yasuki War. We don't need another fight over Ryoko Owari. We don't need the Scorpion making yet another grab at Aramasu's remains. Some prizes, once won, should stay won.
  • Not all prizes should be available to all clans. While the Shadowlands players were rightly upset that they were metagamed against, nobody complained that the fight over the Moto was between Horde and Unicorn -- nobody else had any reason to be in that fight. Why, then, should we have enlightenment as an open prize when only a few clans show any inclination to it in the first place? Yes, technically, the greatest spymaster/strategist/warrior/chef/linebacker could be in the Dragon Clan, but what in Toku's name would they be doing there? 
  • Please, no clearly right or wrong choices. While this has come up frequently over the course of the game, the best examples are probably Moto Chen vs. Chaozhu, and Kitao vs. Kumiko. If a clear villain's getting offered up, make the offer tempting, at least. Kitao was especially a bad choice, since she was literally responsible for her predecessor's death.

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20 minutes ago, SirEuain said:

Sacred cows. Right.

 

  • Daigotsu needs to stay away. For all that AEG insisted that Daigotsu wasn't a Mary Sue, he had no real weaknesses, easily showed up equivalent characters from other clans, and warped the game and story around him so much that he was essentially the main character following Toturi's death. By the time he became the master of Jigoku, he was easily the most divisive character in L5R. Granted, much of what he did in story was arguably necessary, such as providing a face to the Shadowlands or adding some depth to it via the Lost, but at this point he'd alienate as many players as he'd bring to the table. 
  • Story wins need to advance the clan in some way. I'd have thought this obvious, but stories right up until the end of AEG's run ran the other way, be it with tournaments to see which clan's characters get forever corrupted into ridiculous caricatures as Dark Oracles or simply set up as questionably competent, such as Shosuro Jimen's endless and pointless reign as Emerald Champion. Even the Shadowlands got smacked by this with the Celestial Jitte. Victories should still come at costs, but if there's no gain at all, or worse, people can troll by "winning" and screwing a clan for it, we have less reason to play. Speaking of trolling...
  • Please, no more "save, corrupt, or kill" tournaments. Every time AEG trotted these out, they were supposedly about players picking which members of their clans they wanted to see more of, but were ultimately just means for players to screw over clans and characters they didn't like. It's one thing to have an event that causes widespread corruption, like the Rain of Blood, but it's quite another to shrug off responsibility and tell the players it's on them to pick who's victim. If something that big happens in the story, it should be the story team's duty to show how it affects each clan, not the players' to figure out how to make it annoy everyone.
  • The Kolat represented the worst of both worlds in terms of AEG's storytelling. Corruption was simple -- use Kolat cards, or just have a character turn out to be Kolat, but dealing with them involved AEG actually deigning to allow players to do something about them. They were a drag on the story for this reason alone, since the limited interaction typically meant detracting from the story around them. Excepting Hidden Emperor, all the Kolat did in the story was act like cartoon villains, mucking things up without contributing to a greater storyline.
  • No takebacks, please. The story occasionally calls for such by its very nature, such as Emerald Champions dying off or Daigotsu wanting his ancestral sword after the Crab had won it, but sometimes these are just redundant. We don't need yet another Yasuki War. We don't need another fight over Ryoko Owari. We don't need the Scorpion making yet another grab at Aramasu's remains. Some prizes, once won, should stay won.
  • Not all prizes should be available to all clans. While the Shadowlands players were rightly upset that they were metagamed against, nobody complained that the fight over the Moto was between Horde and Unicorn -- nobody else had any reason to be in that fight. Why, then, should we have enlightenment as an open prize when only a few clans show any inclination to it in the first place? Yes, technically, the greatest spymaster/strategist/warrior/chef/linebacker could be in the Dragon Clan, but what in Toku's name would they be doing there? 
  • Please, no clearly right or wrong choices. While this has come up frequently over the course of the game, the best examples are probably Moto Chen vs. Chaozhu, and Kitao vs. Kumiko. If a clear villain's getting offered up, make the offer tempting, at least. Kitao was especially a bad choice, since she was literally responsible for her predecessor's death.

If what has been said (or hinted at) is true FFG is going to have MUCH tighter control over the story.

I personally think story prizes will be multiple choice type i.e 'you won, pick A,B,or C' with outcomes alreadly planned out. This should eliminate 'troll win' situations,

Edited by Kuni Katsuyoshi

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I'm not sure if this counts as a sacred cow, but I always hated that economics and logistics were all but completely ignored in the setting. How did the Dragon feed, clothe, and arm all those Samurai? Did a clan ever win a war because they could pay and equip more Ashigaru than their enemies? Where were all the wealthy Heimin traders in the fertile Crane and Lion lands. The conflict between wealthy, non-noble merchants and the martial nobility was always a major issue in real-world feudal societies. It'd be nice if the L5R story at least nodded to this. 

Which brings me to the Kolat. A cool way to make an antagonist that wasn't "muahaha Oni Shadowlands" evil, would be to make the Kolat a conspiracy of wealthy merchants aiming to overthrow the feudal order. Their end game could be something like the merchant principalities in renaissance Italy. Of course they'd be willing to do pretty unsavory things to achieve this goal. But they'd be antagonists who weren't evil for evil's sake. At the same time, it would make perfect sense why the Samurai of Rokugan hate the Kolat and view them as an existential threat.

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Personally, I'd like to see the whole "game gets a new owner every couple of years" thing go away.  Now that we're at FFG, let's just stay here, ok?

39 minutes ago, Rawls said:

I'm not sure if this counts as a sacred cow, but I always hated that economics and logistics were all but completely ignored in the setting. How did the Dragon feed, clothe, and arm all those Samurai? Did a clan ever win a war because they could pay and equip more Ashigaru than their enemies? Where were all the wealthy Heimin traders in the fertile Crane and Lion lands. The conflict between wealthy, non-noble merchants and the martial nobility was always a major issue in real-world feudal societies. It'd be nice if the L5R story at least nodded to this. 

Which brings me to the Kolat. A cool way to make an antagonist that wasn't "muahaha Oni Shadowlands" evil, would be to make the Kolat a conspiracy of wealthy merchants aiming to overthrow the feudal order. Their end game could be something like the merchant principalities in renaissance Italy. Of course they'd be willing to do pretty unsavory things to achieve this goal. But they'd be antagonists who weren't evil for evil's sake. At the same time, it would make perfect sense why the Samurai of Rokugan hate the Kolat and view them as an existential threat.

I think one of the Mantis options for post-Onyx was the chance to throw support behind the merchant class when rebuilding the clan.  I thought it sounded like a neat idea, but it got voted down pretty hard.  Also, people have since pointed out that AEG probably wasn't too serious about allowing it to be a long-term option, and if that had been elected, something really horrible (well, "more horrible") would probably have happened to the Mantis to restore the status quo.  Under FFG, though, who knows?

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39 minutes ago, Rawls said:

I'm not sure if this counts as a sacred cow, but I always hated that economics and logistics were all but completely ignored in the setting. How did the Dragon feed, clothe, and arm all those Samurai? Did a clan ever win a war because they could pay and equip more Ashigaru than their enemies? Where were all the wealthy Heimin traders in the fertile Crane and Lion lands. The conflict between wealthy, non-noble merchants and the martial nobility was always a major issue in real-world feudal societies. It'd be nice if the L5R story at least nodded to this. 

Which brings me to the Kolat. A cool way to make an antagonist that wasn't "muahaha Oni Shadowlands" evil, would be to make the Kolat a conspiracy of wealthy merchants aiming to overthrow the feudal order. Their end game could be something like the merchant principalities in renaissance Italy. Of course they'd be willing to do pretty unsavory things to achieve this goal. But they'd be antagonists who weren't evil for evil's sake. At the same time, it would make perfect sense why the Samurai of Rokugan hate the Kolat and view them as an existential threat.

The majority of samurai find commerce and money a distateful subject. So no, your not going to see samurai worried about cashflow, they have servants for that.

The Yasuki family of the Crab, and some Crane Daidoji DO take an active roll in commerce, however.

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2 hours ago, SirEuain said:
  • Daigotsu needs to stay away. For all that AEG insisted that Daigotsu wasn't a Mary Sue, he had no real weaknesses, easily showed up equivalent characters from other clans, and warped the game and story around him so much that he was essentially the main character following Toturi's death. By the time he became the master of Jigoku, he was easily the most divisive character in L5R. Granted, much of what he did in story was arguably necessary, such as providing a face to the Shadowlands or adding some depth to it via the Lost, but at this point he'd alienate as many players as he'd bring to the table. 

I think Daigotsu could work if his Mary Sue tendencies were removed.  I think the character himself is fine, it's the way he was written (especially during his introduction) that was the problem.  Give him real weaknesses, and have him lose for real reasons and not always by deus ex machina and he could be fine.

Either way, FFG has a few years to figure out if they want to do anything with him.  If he exists at all in this setting, he is currently an infant. 

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22 minutes ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

The majority of samurai find commerce and money a distateful subject. So no, your not going to see samurai worried about cashflow, they have servants for that.

The Yasuki family of the Crab, and some Crane Daidoji DO take an active roll in commerce, however.

Feudal classes have often claimed not to care about commerce, but if you care about war, you must necessarily care about commerce. You might delegate the "unpleasantness" of trade to vassals, but you must also realize that your war machine relies on it. And we know trade is a big part of Rokugani society. Major cities like Ryoko Owari sprung up around trade. So where are all these rich merchants? As you say, they are predominantly non-Samurai. Yet some of them must be very rich. Does a really wealthy Heimin - who could afford to hire hundreds of "Yojimbo" - just take it lying down when a poor, minor clan Samurai treats him like trash? Or does he donate a bit extra to his local Kolat chapter?

The very disdain most samurai supposedly have for trade makes this a fertile ground for conflict that doesn't involve supernatural BBGs.

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11 minutes ago, Rawls said:

Feudal classes have often claimed not to care about commerce, but if you care about war, you must necessarily care about commerce. You might delegate the "unpleasantness" of trade to vassals, but you must also realize that your war machine relies on it. And we know trade is a big part of Rokugani society. Major cities like Ryoko Owari sprung up around trade. So where are all these rich merchants? As you say, they are predominantly non-Samurai. Yet some of them must be very rich. Does a really wealthy Heimin - who could afford to hire hundreds of "Yojimbo" - just take it lying down when a poor, minor clan Samurai treats him like trash? Or does he donate a bit extra to his local Kolat chapter?

The very disdain most samurai supposedly have for trade makes this a fertile ground for conflict that doesn't involve supernatural BBGs.

It would make for decent story.

Espescially when it naturally devolves into a peasant massacre

 

Edited by Kuni Katsuyoshi

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Another:
 

- Sticking to the "sons of" form. Crabs, sons of Hida; Son of Heavens; sons of blablabla. In many of these cases "Child, Children, etc" would work as well, but wouldn't exclude women and paint any given thing as a predominantly male. 

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10 minutes ago, WHW said:

- Sticking to the "sons of" form. Crabs, sons of Hida; Son of Heavens; sons of blablabla. In many of these cases "Child, Children, etc" would work as well, but wouldn't exclude women and paint any given thing as a predominantly male. 

I'd be ok with seeing the matriarchy based limitations dissolve at the same time. Male Moshi shugenja, male Lion's Pride, Utaku battle damoiseau ...

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I actually agree. First Edition setting had much more sexism written into it so the solution Wick picked for that issue to not alienate female players was to introduce families that were matriarchal and were kind of "gateways" for female warriors. There is no more need for that in the current zeitgeist (and thanks gods for that), so yeah, I'm all for either leaving that behind, or providing alternatives. In fact, IMHO, in the modern times these families can easily be seen as negative representation ("angry feminists" Matsu, "women who are definied and judged by their sexual purity which literally gives them superpowers" O/Utaku).

 

Though note that my complaint was less of a setting one, and more of a writing/presentation thing - calling Crab "Children of Hida" or even "Daughters and Sons of the Wall", or using "Sons" and "Daughters" and "Children" interchangeably would all be ok for me. 

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8 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

I'd be ok with seeing the matriarchy based limitations dissolve at the same time. Male Moshi shugenja, male Lion's Pride, Utaku battle damoiseau ...

The Utaku men is one the only things about the Unicorn that interested me, id like that one to stay.:)

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16 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I'd like to junk the notion that only dishonorable people engage in intelligence work. Every bloody Great Clan (and the Minor Clans who can afford it) would have an intelligence network to keep them informed about what's going on in their own lands and other people's. The vast majority of "spying" is just about having people who keep an eye on what's happening and send in reports. Nothing dishonorable about that; it's simple pragmatism.

 

That's whats the "shady advisor" was for (and was born from). Which is a theme kind of unrealized in L5R, because Scorpion tend to have setting-wide "dibs" on it. Basically, it's the idea that What My Lord Doesn't Know Doesn't Dishonor Him, and Certain Things Needs To Be Done.  And, from the lords perspective, There Is No Need To Ask Where That Knowledge Comes From. A win-win situation where lord stays pure and their honor is above question, while still getting to use all the information and resources obtained by less savory means by the EVIL ADVISOR who deals with intelligence and other unsavory practices. 

It's kind of like when a Magistrate gathers his Yoriki and sighs out loud "I know that XYZ is guilty, I WISH FORTUNES WOULD BESTOW SOMETHING UPON ME THAT WOULD PROVE IT BEYOND QUESTION, PROBABLY SOMETHING FROM THEIR BEDROOM", and the smart Yoriki nod, preparing to do some breaking and entering, and then handing it to their boss. Or even leaving it anonymously at his doors.

Nobody directly asked for the dishonorable deed, so the magistrate is pure and honorable, while he still enjoys the benefits of the thing. And if someone catches his yoriki redhanded? They acted on their own, honorless scum, I have nothing to do with it! 

Don't ask directly for it, and don't ask where it comes for, and everyone are happier for that.

Sadly, SHADY ADVISORS tend to not exist, because  Scorpion Clan is basically a SHADY ADVISOR turned into a Clan :P.  

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I dare say some limitations will remain, regardless of individual opinion here, but even if they keep the general concept for the Utaku, I don't see why the title couldn't shift from "battle maiden" to something more neutral, and the restriction become something other than your sex.

Might even be time to find an epithet for the Ise Zumi that isn't "tattooed man".

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5 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

I actually thought that the Lion's Pride was super cool as an all female elite unit.  They were badass!

Why? What makes an all-female unit more badass than all-male unit? 

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