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Bayushi Tsubaki

Which "sacred cows" are you hoping get abandoned?

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L5R is fuuuull of sacred cows that have built up over the years, so I'm curious to see which ones people are interested in seeing be left behind with the baggage of the old game.
For example, I'd love to see the Scorpion lose their "we are a primarily political clan" stereotype. It's really not what the clan is about; it's just that blackmail is SO powerful of a tool that it enables an otherwise "regularly political" clan to keep up with the powerhouses (ie: Crane).

What would you leave at the chopping block, so to speak?

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Phoenix pacifism as passivity- the Phoenix should certainly strive for peace, but that should not mean rolling over and not committing when confronted on minor issues- the Phoenix have earned a reputation for arrogance- and while I'd like a breather from that on the individual level, the clan as a whole should take a much more assertive line- bowing out doesn't lead to peace, it leads to their words being given no weight. Rokugan is a hideously militant place, and even the stinking Crane back their words with steel. And if the smoothest talkers are also the guys who excel at disemboweling their foes with three-foot razors, then the Phoenix need to act like they came from the same rough background.

 

 I hope the Lion are less... jagged and inconsistent on the issue of battlefield deceptions. The Akodo are supposed to be brilliant tacticians- let's see it.

I want the Dragon to be less locked into sitting in the mountains waiting for orders, and more involved in the affairs of the Empire as a whole.

 

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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21 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

L5R is fuuuull of sacred cows that have built up over the years, so I'm curious to see which ones people are interested in seeing be left behind with the baggage of the old game.
For example, I'd love to see the Scorpion lose their "we are a primarily political clan" stereotype. It's really not what the clan is about; it's just that blackmail is SO powerful of a tool that it enables an otherwise "regularly political" clan to keep up with the powerhouses (ie: Crane).

What would you leave at the chopping block, so to speak?

This one is a little harder than I expected.

The single biggest thing 'off the top' that I want to see go is Super-villain Apocalypse story arcs. They're not necessary to telling great L5R stories.

As bit of a counter point to what you said about the Scorpion, I think Daidoji Harriers should stay gone. Crane ninja? no thanks

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this is a GREAT thread idea. 

1. the coup. YEAH I SAID IT. leave the hantei alone. it would be a CRAZY curveball to reset the game to right before it, then have it ever happen. it also prevents my number 2

2. constant imperial turnover. 

3. clan homogeny. just because the Crab defend the wall doesn't mean every crab has to be an uncultured Hulk. later editions of l5r weren't _quite_ so bad at this, but i dearly hope we don't go back to it. 

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To riff off the OP's point about Scorpion being type-cast, I tried playing Old5R during Emperor Edition and founds that "themes" were just a terrible, terrible design decision. The card pool was already divided up nine ways with generally non-interacting clans and then it was further subdivided into even further smaller groups with niche keywords (e.g. magistrates, ninjas, etc). In the end, decks were largely pre-constructed after the themed stronghold was selected. I much prefer the New5R approach were you (seemingly) must marshal both political and military might; this should allow for more creativity and give completed decks the feeling of an entire clan working in concert.

The Spider Clan was so bad! Maybe this isn't a sacred cow, but as an outsider who tried to get into Old5R, the whole notion of a legitimized Shadowlands faction seemed so forced, unnatural, and antithetical to the purpose of the setting. I am a little more sympathetic to the Mantis Clan, but hope they aren't brought back simply to keep the clan count as low as possible. I actually kinda wish they had reduced the clan count to 5 to maximize the intra-clan card pools. (Again, this is the opinion of someone who wasn't heavily invested in the game, I'm sure there would be rioting if they reduced the clan count to 5.)

 

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4 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

The Spider as a pet project meant to sew discord among the clans (ie: Samurai Edition era) was a wonderful idea.
The Empress legitimizing them was when it broke. ;)

i don't wanna derail this thread, but i can make a compelling argument why it made perfect sense for Daigotsu at least to want it. I can't speak to why Ms Perfect Empress be so accommodating there, outside of the designers thinking "%@#$ -19 honor". which is, admitedly, a reasonably valid excuse. 

but it actually does raise a good point. for me at least. if we're going REALLY crazy i'd take away the Oni and the whole Horde aspect of the shadowlands. I'd start with the Dark Mirror. You can't really have an enemy faction that can't interact with your game on its own terms. 

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15 minutes ago, cielago said:

this is a GREAT thread idea. 

1. the coup. YEAH I SAID IT. leave the hantei alone. it would be a CRAZY curveball to reset the game to right before it, then have it ever happen. it also prevents my number 2

2. constant imperial turnover. 

3. clan homogeny. just because the Crab defend the wall doesn't mean every crab has to be an uncultured Hulk. later editions of l5r weren't _quite_ so bad at this, but i dearly hope we don't go back to it. 

I absolutely agree with every word.:)

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17 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

The Spider as a pet project meant to sew discord among the clans (ie: Samurai Edition era) was a wonderful idea.
The Empress legitimizing them was when it broke. ;)

IMO The Spider problem was exsacerbated by trying to cater to both extremes of fans. The Cardflopper who wanted the Horde, and the Dicerollers (me) who wanted something playable. The result...chaos.

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I totally agree about the Scorpion - imo it isn't that they are political, but more that they are satirical.  They are the dark satire against all clans.  The Crane are honorable, the Lion are loyal, the Dragon are introspective, the Crab are pragmatic... all to a fault.  The Scorpion are that fault.  Honor is selfish, it lets you stay clean while a job goes undone.  We do that job.  Loyalty only looks good until 2 of the people you are loyal to have a quarrel.  Do you obey Matsu Tsuko or Akodo Toturi?  You can't obey them both when they vie against each other.  We choose our loyalty.  It's great to look at the inevitable balance of the universe... but some of us have bills to pay.  Farms that would go barren without skilled work.  Taxes that wouldn't add up without shrewd accounting.  We go to work.  Pragmatism is great, but there must be some limit to how far down you can dig before you're just playing in the mud like a pig...

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1. Constant trying of make everything radical and UP TO ELEVEN! in characterization.

2. Second Day of Thunder. 

3. Dragon Clan as a plot device with no identity beyond "a guy 1000 years ago decided we will be an army of some ronin so i guess we should wait for that"

4. Crane and Dragon being "only people who matter in dueling" instead of "having the most of good duelists"

5. "Evidence and investigating is 100% useless " (mostly because testimony first approach doesn't actually ignore evidence, because a samurai who is convinced by your case will support it with his word and trust - again, this is the typical TO THE EXTREME HARDCORE!! characterization of the setting. )

6. Scorpion Clan Coup.

7. Kuni Yori as a Shadowlands sympathizer (and "let's ally with Shadowlands and nail our son to a banner hi hi xd" overall)

8. Ancestor Matsu as a incompetent, pointlessly angry woman who didn't really achieve anything and everything worthwile about her was basically an informed trait

8a. Acting like Matsu philosophy somewhat is inherently and irrevocably doomed to cause anyone following it to develop either a horrible case of dumbz, or "silly dumb badass awesome hi hi xd". 

9. Less focus on Togashi Monks and Isawa Shugenja, more focus on Mirumoto and Shiba

10. Acting like samurai always conduct themselves as if they were courtiers in a middle of a formal court proceedings

11. Shourido being presented as some kind of inherently devilish and satanic blasphemy and anti-thesis of bushido to create artificial conflict between non-conflicting philosophies just so "dark mirror" has it's "DARK VIRTUES".

12. Phoenix being too busy tainting themselves and unleashing forbbidden knowledge instead of being internally torn apart between "let's not interfere and pray for peace, while also maybe allowing ourselves to be murderkilled just to prove a point" and "let's become Rokugani equivalent of USA and bring everyone peace using superior firepower and meddling where nobody wants us" while also including the whole spectrum between those two

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10 minutes ago, WHW said:

1. Constant trying of make everything radical and UP TO ELEVEN! in characterization.

2. Second Day of Thunder. 

3. Dragon Clan as a plot device with no identity beyond "a guy 1000 years ago decided we will be an army of some ronin so i guess we should wait for that"

4. Crane and Dragon being "only people who matter in dueling" instead of "having the most of good duelists"

5. "Evidence and investigating is 100% useless " (mostly because testimony first approach doesn't actually ignore evidence, because a samurai who is convinced by your case will support it with his word and trust - again, this is the typical TO THE EXTREME HARDCORE!! characterization of the setting. )

6. Scorpion Clan Coup.

7. Kuni Yori as a Shadowlands sympathizer (and "let's ally with Shadowlands and nail our son to a banner hi hi xd" overall)

8. Ancestor Matsu as a incompetent, pointlessly angry woman who didn't really achieve anything and everything worthwile about her was basically an informed trait

8a. Acting like Matsu philosophy somewhat is inherently and irrevocably doomed to cause anyone following it to develop either a horrible case of dumbz, or "silly dumb badass awesome hi hi xd". 

9. Less focus on Togashi Monks and Isawa Shugenja, more focus on Mirumoto and Shiba

10. Acting like samurai always conduct themselves as if they were courtiers in a middle of a formal court proceedings

11. Shourido being presented as some kind of inherently devilish and satanic blasphemy and anti-thesis of bushido to create artificial conflict between non-conflicting philosophies just so "dark mirror" has it's "DARK VIRTUES".

12. Phoenix being too busy tainting themselves and unleashing forbbidden knowledge instead of being internally torn apart between "let's not interfere and pray for peace, while also maybe allowing ourselves to be murderkilled just to prove a point" and "let's become Rokugani equivalent of USA and bring everyone peace using superior firepower and meddling where nobody wants us" while also including the whole spectrum between those two

1,2,3,6, and 7 get my unreserved support. I can agree with most of the other, but believe alot of that comes from the weakness of the short fiction format. 

If they tried a more serialized format we might get beyond just Flavor and Stereotype.

As for Shourido...I wouldn't miss it:P

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3 minutes ago, WHW said:

12. Phoenix being too busy tainting themselves and unleashing forbbidden knowledge instead of being internally torn apart between "let's not interfere and pray for peace, while also maybe allowing ourselves to be murderkilled just to prove a point" and "let's become Rokugani equivalent of USA and bring everyone peace using superior firepower and meddling where nobody wants us" while also including the whole spectrum between those two

I'd like to extend this to all the clans. Each clan's philosophy can be interpreted in many different ways, and I'd like to see those different interpretations cause friction within each clan. And not just between families either, but between individuals within the families.

On a related note, I'd like to see more gray vs gray storylines, too. Where it's not really obvious who's right and who's wrong, and both sides have an understandable viewpoint. Not saying they all need to be like that, but having that happen more often would go a long way toward making the setting feel more lifelike.

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9 minutes ago, Fumi said:

I'd like to extend this to all the clans. Each clan's philosophy can be interpreted in many different ways, and I'd like to see those different interpretations cause friction within each clan. And not just between families either, but between individuals within the families.

On a related note, I'd like to see more gray vs gray storylines, too. Where it's not really obvious who's right and who's wrong, and both sides have an understandable viewpoint. Not saying they all need to be like that, but having that happen more often would go a long way toward making the setting feel more lifelike.

I Think some of this (as stated above) is a format issue. 4k words doesn't leave lots of room for nuance.

However, if FFG sticks with the 'interclan conflict' theme, we might get more gray in the story.

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I think this thread has given me a case of L5R related Brain Leak.:P

1, Moto death priests.  I liked the Original 'samurai with gaijin seasoning'. I liked the half samurai half mongol horselord idea.

The death priest...not so much. Anyone remember Moto Rani? She looked like Maleficent, for pete's sake!

Lets lose this.

besides Rokugan already HAS a creepy looking shugenja family.:lol:

Edited by Kuni Katsuyoshi

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I'd like to see L5R abandon its habit of throwing in supernatural or fantastic elements which work against the consistency of the setting.

In my RPG group these are generally referred to under the heading of "pirates riding dinosaurs", after probably its most egregious example, but there are others.

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5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Phoenix pacifism as passivity- the Phoenix should certainly strive for peace, but that should not mean rolling over and not committing when confronted on minor issues- the Phoenix have earned a reputation for arrogance- and while I'd like a breather from that on the individual level, the clan as a whole should take a much more assertive line- bowing out doesn't lead to peace, it leads to their words being given no weight. Rokugan is a hideously militant place, and even the stinking Crane back their words with steel. And if the smoothest talkers are also the guys who excel at disemboweling their foes with three-foot razors, then the Phoenix need to act like they came from the same rough background.

 

 I hope the Lion are less... jagged and inconsistent on the issue of battlefield deceptions. The Akodo are supposed to be brilliant tacticians- let's see it.

I want the Dragon to be less locked into sitting in the mountains waiting for orders, and more involved in the affairs of the Empire as a whole.

 

What really keeps me away from Phoenix is the fear that they will be portrayed as peace above all, there is never a good enough reason for conflict clan. I just hope when the time comes they strike decisively and without restraint instead of acting like a bunch of hippies. 

And yeah I wait for some tactical genius from Lion, losing their very first battle in their very first fiction doesn't make them look very credible.

Edited by BordOne

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I'd like to see an end to all samurai from the Great Clans being incredibly wealthy, and all armies being made up entirely of massed ranks of katana wielding Samurai.

One of the best bits of Old5R fiction was mostly about the Sparrow being so poor that they always had to eat yams. 

Definitely support the grey on grey conflict, and lack of resources is a solid motivation in those situations.

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15 minutes ago, Fumo said:

I'd like to see an end to all samurai from the Great Clans being incredibly wealthy, and all armies being made up entirely of massed ranks of katana wielding Samurai.

One of the best bits of Old5R fiction was mostly about the Sparrow being so poor that they always had to eat yams. 

Definitely support the grey on grey conflict, and lack of resources is a solid motivation in those situations.

More goshi samurai?

Only if it can be a Dragon eat goats thing

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1 hour ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I Think some of this (as stated above) is a format issue. 4k words doesn't leave lots of room for nuance.

Right now, yeah. They have to to introduce the setting while also advancing the plot, so there's not much room.

Eventually, though, the setting will be sufficiently introduced that they'll be able to spend some words on stuff like moral complexity. It might take multiple POV's to do properly, though, because it's really hard to successfully present a conflict as gray-vs-gray without showing the thoughts of both sides.

2 hours ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

However, if FFG sticks with the 'interclan conflict' theme, we might get more gray in the story.

Agreed.

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Being that the story opens on the tricentennial anniversary of the return of the Unicorn, I would love to see that the Ide Ambassadors have made at least a little progress in challenging the "they-are-a-clan-of-barbarians" belief once held by so many in the Empire. It would make it clear that the family is not lazy and/or outright useless.

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3 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Being that the story opens on the tricentennial anniversary of the return of the Unicorn, I would love to see that the Ide Ambassadors have made at least a little progress in challenging the "they-are-a-clan-of-barbarians" belief once held by so many in the Empire. It would make it clear that the family is not lazy and/or outright useless.

Yeah I've always been a bit annoyed by this.  "The Unicorn are foreign" after 300 years living back in the empire?  I'd expect them to have better horses, and other works that are foreign that they didn't give up, but I'd expect them to be a bit better integrated then that.  Most fictions acted like they just got back lol

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25 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Right now, yeah. They have to to introduce the setting while also advancing the plot, so there's not much room.

Eventually, though, the setting will be sufficiently introduced that they'll be able to spend some words on stuff like moral complexity. It might take multiple POV's to do properly, though, because it's really hard to successfully present a conflict as gray-vs-gray without showing the thoughts of both sides.

 

I think this will depend on FFG intends to approach 'character driven stories' 

In other words, how many perspectives will be featurwd. Will Toturi and Tsuko be the center of the "Lion Story"?   Hotaru the Crane? etc.

If so, then things look good for deeper storytelling

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1 minute ago, Kuni Katsuyoshi said:

I think this will depend on FFG intends to approach 'character driven stories' 

In other words, how many perspectives will be featurwd. Will Toturi and Tsuko be the center of the "Lion Story"?   Hotaru the Crane? etc.

If so, then things look good for deeper storytelling

What we're really wanting out of this, if we're being honest is Asian ASOIAF with romanticism. Make us utterly despise someone, then slowly reverse our opinion once the curtain is pulled back on their POV.

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