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Mine Mapper...

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4 hours ago, librarian101 said:

 

so would we be able to use the Scavenger Crane to replenish bombs.

I mean, literally yes - they are discarded so Crane can recover them. Shouldn't be a serious issue though - which ship has a illicit, system and bomb (or crew) slots?

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45 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I mean, literally yes - they are discarded so Crane can recover them. Shouldn't be a serious issue though - which ship has a illicit, system and bomb (or crew) slots?

Brobots.

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2 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Brobots.

Well, it'd be an interesting tactic for sure. I don't think it necessarily synergizes well with the Aggressor and how people traditionally play them but it's an interesting alternative to EM ships with MM. It's also probably still only like, two bombs at the start and then maybe you get them back. While using up two very useful slots on the IG-2000 to do so. 

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1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

Well, it'd be an interesting tactic for sure. I don't think it necessarily synergizes well with the Aggressor and how people traditionally play them but it's an interesting alternative to EM ships with MM. It's also probably still only like, two bombs at the start and then maybe you get them back. While using up two very useful slots on the IG-2000 to do so. 

I've actually got some vassal games in, testing the build.

No need for clusters- proximitiy mines are plenty. 2 mines are enough to block off a side corridor almost completely, or make it so only a hotshot large base can slip past 1 mine, both assuming a rock on the edge of the rock area about midline. Got a Rey/Nera list down to 3 hull on Rey while being out or range on salvage crane once and missing the bomb drop when I did salvage it.

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10 hours ago, jpltanis said:

 

You don't really need to come up with any new upgrades card.  Just allow ships to shoot (with the primary weapon) at the mines by rolling the attack dice.  If any "hit" are rolled, the mine token is triggered - so that ship looses its attack shooting at the mine, instead of you.   This calls for a more precise mine distance placement and not for boxing in opponents ships (especially if they placed all their ships at the corner).    

This.

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11 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

The argument against goes like this:

Once per opportunity rule means you can only select each bomb once.

Extra munitions means you dont lose the bomb when you select it, but you cant deploy it a second time with the same map.

Once again, how does Opportunity rule match with EM?  What you are trying to say is that if someone has two cluster mine upgrade cards, with Mine Mapping you can only place one of them.  But the card says ANY number so the argument has no existence EXCEPT the opportunity to follow the card text one time when you play it.

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1 minute ago, rilesman said:

Once again, how does Opportunity rule match with EM?  What you are trying to say is that if someone has two cluster mine upgrade cards, with Mine Mapping you can only place one of them.  But the card says ANY number so the argument has no existence EXCEPT the opportunity to follow the card text one time when you play it.

Where do you get THAT?

Munition tokens are not bombs. They are an extra use of a bomb, but they are not a bomb themselves.

Therefore, the map cannot select a munition token. You can only select your bombs. And once the bomb has been selected once (and the munition token discarded) you cannot select the same bomb again.

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Just now, Rakaydos said:

Where do you get THAT?

Munition tokens are not bombs. They are an extra use of a bomb, but they are not a bomb themselves.

Therefore, the map cannot select a munition token. You can only select your bombs. And once the bomb has been selected once (and the munition token discarded) you cannot select the same bomb again.

EM are NOT things like missiles and bombs and torpedoes????  Funny.  I seem to fired and dropped so many of them so many different times with an EM token.  So weird no one called me out on that in tournaments.  So what is an EM token?  What does it symbolize?  My whole foundation is rocked. I thought an evade token symbolized an evade die.  Now....what shall I do????  I can't use an evade token anymore...because it is not the physical thing.  They sky is falling.

MedicFett already hit on the language.   There is no debate about this UNLESS you just want to make one....come up with something in your mind and twist it all around.  

Here is why I am getting tired of the craziness.  I think about all the little Whiner's and Cryers out there if FFG would have put text that you could add another card with Extra Munitions.  I can hear it now, "WHY OH WHY must I buy more ships to have the ability to increase how many torpedoes and bombs and missiles...why oh why are you trying to steal my money FFG"?  How dare FFG provide tokens, even acrylics in tournament kits so you don't have to go buy another ship, or two, or three....etc.

Go look at the text of Boba Fett in the FAQ.  The EM token is a symbolic item representing another card.  Now you are going to force FFG to actually write something that is common sense and addressed in so many different areas.  "If Boba Fett is used to discard an Upgrade card that has an ordnance token on it (including the Extra Munitions Upgrade card itself), the opposing player can discard the ordnance token instead"  FFG treats it as a card.  Why can't you?

Wishing it didn't work that way is not the same as what the text says.   No where does "ANY" identify it may only be one upgrade slot, or that it must be done sequentially, nor parallel, etc.  There is not language to change to what it says....Do you lay one bomb set down first, or can you change it, or modify it, etc.  You have to pull references from other locations in the rules and the FAQ.

 

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45 minutes ago, rilesman said:

EM are NOT things like missiles and bombs and torpedoes????  Funny.  I seem to fired and dropped so many of them so many different times with an EM token.  So weird no one called me out on that in tournaments.  So what is an EM token?  What does it symbolize?  My whole foundation is rocked. I thought an evade token symbolized an evade die.  Now....what shall I do????  I can't use an evade token anymore...because it is not the physical thing.  They sky is falling.

Actually, an evade token does add an evade result, which is an extra die with evade showing, according to the rules. There's even effects that can reroll your evade result.

A munition token, on the other hand, is just a token. The Extra Munitions card grant these tokens the power to be discarded instead of the torpedo, missile, or bomb you put them on. They are not torpedos, missiles, or bombs, but they grant an extra use to those cards under regular play, following 1 attack per turn/1 bomb drop per turn.

Minefield map is not regular play because it lets you play all your bombs at once... and munition tokens are not bombs. They can save your bombs from being discarded when you play them all at once, but you cant play any bomb twice to the same Minefield map effect. It's in the rules.

Edited by Rakaydos

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10 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Actually, an evade token does add an evade result, which is an extra die with evade showing, according to the rules. There's even effects that can reroll your evade result.

Doesn't look like a die.  Can't roll it.   If I take it anywhere....I will be told it is not a die.  I bet I can't sell it back to my FLGS as a die, they would laugh at me.  

IT IS JUST A TOKEN

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Just now, rilesman said:

Doesn't look like a die.  Can't roll it.   If I take it anywhere....I will be told it is not a die.  I bet I can't sell it back to my FLGS as a die, they would laugh at me.  

IT IS JUST A TOKEN

Read a rule book sometime, it might help.

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Now I know what Oppenheimer felt like when he completed the Atomic Bombs. I am sort of glad that this discussion is being had now, that any FFG employee can take it to the FAQ guys and say, how is this **** supposed to work?

I can see both sides to the argument as i don't have any vested interest either way. Is an EM token a proxy card? Or is it just that? A token that takes the hit when you are required to discard the requisite munitions card. I do like what they have done with the Mapper, it's just that with the number of ships that have both bomb and torpedo slots, they need to be careful they are have not booby trapped Pandora's Box as it is now being opened.

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21 minutes ago, rilesman said:

Doesn't look like a die.  Can't roll it.   If I take it anywhere....I will be told it is not a die.  I bet I can't sell it back to my FLGS as a die, they would laugh at me.  

IT IS JUST A TOKEN

You spend the token to place a die with an evade face up. Most people don't bother to do that, and just consider the token being the evade result itself. But the revised manual (The Force Awakens Core Set Rules Reference) explicitly tells you to place another die. That die can be modified and cancelled as per the usual rules.

In respect to the Extra Munitions/Minefield Mapper controversy, it all reduces itself to a key concept: Does the "once per opportunity" rule apply to the bomb upgrade cards with Minefield Mapper, or aren't costs subject to the "once per opportunity" rule?
Let's imagine a hypothetical upgrade card "Timber!: When you discard a card, you may suffer 1 damage to flip that card back up".
Then a TIE Punisher goes with Proximity Mines, Minefield Mapper, and Timber!. Could it use Minefield Mapper on the Proximity Mines 10 times? (The first time plus the other 9 times by suffering damage and recovering the mines)

If the answer is yes, then the Extra Munitions case is the same case.

Edited by Azrapse

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I for one welcome our new mapped bomb overlords.

Does no one realize what this will do for the meta? IT WILL COUNTER LARGE SHIPS like the JM5K and the shadowcaster.  They will have a hard time moving through a more cluttered battlefield.  It will also help Imperials and Scum deal with K-wings by creating terrain denial for their big SLAM movements.

I am stoked for what this will do for the meta

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1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

 

Minefield map is not regular play because it lets you play all your bombs at once... and munition tokens are not bombs. They can save your bombs from being discarded when you play them all at once, but you cant play any bomb twice to the same Minefield map effect. It's in the rules.

I would agree with those who are arguing for single opportunity interpretation.  The minefield mapper even says "<bomb> upgrade card"  If you have 2 bomb upgrade cards equipped and each of them have a munitions token, you trigger the mapper, choose both of your upgrade cards to discard and then discard the tokens instead as per EM.  The opportunity has been triggered and is now past.  You cannot then select your two cards again.

It's actually pretty cut and dry RAW

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16 hours ago, jpltanis said:

 

You don't really need to come up with any new upgrades card.  Just allow ships to shoot (with the primary weapon) at the mines by rolling the attack dice.  If any "hit" are rolled, the mine token is triggered - so that ship looses its attack shooting at the mine, instead of you.   This calls for a more precise mine distance placement and not for boxing in opponents ships (especially if they placed all their ships at the corner).    

This completely destroy mines. I hope it will never happen.

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20 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Fortress-wing may totally be a thing.

this is the thing that really worries me about mine mappers.  Fortressing is already a dull, annoying thing to fly against, fortressing with a bomb screen will just cause me to say 'yeah, I don't wanna win that much, gg, now do you want to put your BS away and play a friendly game whilst we wait for the next round'?

Ain't nobody got time for that

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4 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I for one welcome our new mapped bomb overlords.

Does no one realize what this will do for the meta? IT WILL COUNTER LARGE SHIPS like the JM5K and the shadowcaster.  They will have a hard time moving through a more cluttered battlefield.  It will also help Imperials and Scum deal with K-wings by creating terrain denial for their big SLAM movements.

I am stoked for what this will do for the meta

Ehh, not sure it will. I'm more concerned for smaller ships without much HP that rely on good maneuvering to survive, such as protectorates. They REALLY can't afford to trigger mines which might leave them no choice but to take the only clear (and thus predictable) path - and get quite predictably destroyed as a result. 3 u-boats on the other hand have 27 HPs between them and they can usually eat a bomb or two without much hassle. And then easily obliterate a list that invested that many resources into bombs.

The greatest winners though might be small ship turrets - Thug Life and the new TIE Aggressors. They can navigate around mines without losing the opportunity to shoot. For the same reason they should be able to avoid bomblet spam (especially Aggressors with their barrel rolls). And they absolutely murder AGI 1 ships with TLTs. In other words, they're the perfect counter to K-wing/Scurrg/Punisher bombing shenaningas. And reverting to mass TLTs is certainly NOT the meta shift I'm looking forward to.

 

11 hours ago, RStan said:

Mine Mapper becomes a problem and a huge part of the meta.... Resistance Han Solo says hi!

1) Mine mapper works after placing forces. This means the opponent will know precisely where Han is and he can still block Han's most sensible movement options. He can't put mines around Han but Han can't move freely in any direction either. On top of that if you deploy Han somewhere in the middle there's a good chance that asteroids will further restrict his options.

2) There's a counter to almost anything in the game. Building a list that directly counters another specific list is easy. Building a list that counters a specific list and is still good against other popular list is what's challenging. Resistance Han isn't used because he just sucks against pretty much everything. After mine mappers appear, he'll still suck against anything else other than mine mappers... and I'm still not sure his ability will be all that useful even in the latter scenario.

Edited by Lightrock

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13 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Ehh, not sure it will. I'm more concerned for smaller ships without much HP that rely on good maneuvering to survive, such as protectorates. They REALLY can't afford to trigger mines which might leave them no choice but to take the only clear (and thus predictable) path - and get quite predictably destroyed as a result. 3 u-boats on the other hand have 27 HPs between them and they can usually eat a bomb or two without much hassle. And then easily obliterate a list that invested that many resources into bombs.

The greatest winners though might be small ship turrets - Thug Life and the new TIE Aggressors. They can navigate around mines without losing the opportunity to shoot. For the same reason they should be able to avoid bomblet spam (especially Aggressors with their barrel rolls). And they absolutely murder AGI 1 ships with TLTs. In other words, they're the perfect counter to K-wing/Scurrg/Punisher bombing shenaningas. And reverting to mass TLTs is certainly NOT the meta shift I'm looking forward to.

I have to say this really echoes my own worries about the meta this wave engenders.  TLTs versus bombs versus u boats.

That's the kind of x wing I *vomits uncontrollably*

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16 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

1) Mine mapper works after placing forces. This means the opponent will know precisely where Han is and he can still block Han's most sensible movement options. He can't put mines around Han but Han can't move freely in any direction either. On top of that if you deploy Han somewhere in the middle there's a good chance that asteroids will further restrict his options.

2) There's a counter to almost anything in the game. Building a list that directly counters another specific list is easy. Building a list that counters a specific list and is still good against other popular list is what's challenging. Resistance Han isn't used because he just sucks against pretty much everything. After mine mappers appear, he'll still suck against anything else other than mine mappers... and I'm still not sure his ability will be all that useful even in the latter scenario.

yeah-if-you-l9arjq.jpg

(Yes I understand that Resistance Han is terrible and not worth it, but apparently nobody can have a little fun)

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1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

Ehh, not sure it will. I'm more concerned for smaller ships without much HP that rely on good maneuvering to survive, such as protectorates. They REALLY can't afford to trigger mines which might leave them no choice but to take the only clear (and thus predictable) path - and get quite predictably destroyed as a result.

Those sorts of ships already are at the mercy of the fickle green dice. Pile some more chances for auto-damage on the table or create situations where they have to joust? Wait... is this really an X-wing buff? 

Are more possibilities that you've brought the "wrong list" (i.e. for bad matchups) good or bad for the "meta?" 

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