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17 hours ago, Sarone said:

The problem is also in the rule systems used by D20 and Saga Edition.  More precisely, the use of feats, bought Force Powers, and skill points demonstrated the power struggles in said system.  This is further compounded by WotC's history of book bloat, poor play testing, and skewed rules.

With FFG, the system is more akin to the Shadowrun based karma.  It provides a bit more balance for standard level play, while Knight-level plays differently.  At minimum, while a Force-user might have access to the Force and various Force powers/abilities, a Face or skill monkey character will be more specialized.

You're correct about D20 and Saga. My group stopped playing in the middle of a campaign because it became quite evident that WotC had simply grafted the already flawed 3.5 rules set onto Star Wars and failed to engage in even basic quality control. You're also correct that the FFG system offers game balance which is what I like about it. However, that game balance comes with the understanding that players won't be playing Jedi in the golden age of the Republic but burgeoning Force users or perhaps a former youngling attempting to rediscover the lost legacy of the Jedi. Thus, a Force & Destiny character of equal XP isn't going to overshadow, say, a Hired Gun from Edge.

In the F&D adventure Chronicles of the Gatekeeper, the final "boss" was a Clone Wars-era Jedi who had the special NPC talent of multiple actions in a single combat turn. That was the writer's attempt to differentiate the power level of a full Jedi, trained and knowledgeable in the Force, with a group of PCs who were learning on their own. When I ran my group through that encounter, one of my players was crushed under a wall and two more were disabled before the encounter ended. Which, I believe, was the intent the writer was going for.

1 hour ago, TheMOELANDER said:

I have a force user among my "normals" in my group. The force user regularly get's showboated by the skillful others. He has the enhance power and the agility upgrade, but he also botches stealth roles, while our dedicated sneaker does not. THIS system is actually the first time, that the. force doesn't make you either a powerhouse or a nincompoop. It actually works.

What you describe is a GM problem. As a GM you have to give your troupe meaningful tasks, that play towards their character. The force user in my group is the socializer, the face. And for a mandalorian he's darn good at it. He just recently got better combat skills (a thing the others practically had from the start due to their career choices - the combat medic droid is tough and can fight due to the soldier career, the Verpine technician outlaw tech made himself gear, that improved his initial stats and the corellian smuggler is just an agility beast) due to the Niman Disciple tree (he found a mentor) and now is basically on par with the others in combat, which is very fitting for a rebel group. He still is mainly the face, but in the same way as the smuggler is the thief and spy, the Verpine is the technician and trader and the medic droid is the healer and the tank.

See above. 

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14 minutes ago, Concise Locket said:

I expect the Star Wars game I play to recreate the films and TV shows.

I don't. I make it very clear that the materials we watch are in-universe propaganda created and viewed long after the 'actual' events. Needless to say, they have become somewhat embellished and are not 100% accurate. This easily explains why the game mechanics (which represent the 'reality' of my game world) don't always allow for the fantastic events of the myths.

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1 hour ago, Concise Locket said:

You're correct about D20 and Saga. My group stopped playing in the middle of a campaign because it became quite evident that WotC had simply grafted the already flawed 3.5 rules set onto Star Wars and failed to engage in even basic quality control. You're also correct that the FFG system offers game balance which is what I like about it. However, that game balance comes with the understanding that players won't be playing Jedi in the golden age of the Republic but burgeoning Force users or perhaps a former youngling attempting to rediscover the lost legacy of the Jedi. Thus, a Force & Destiny character of equal XP isn't going to overshadow, say, a Hired Gun from Edge.

In the F&D adventure Chronicles of the Gatekeeper, the final "boss" was a Clone Wars-era Jedi who had the special NPC talent of multiple actions in a single combat turn. That was the writer's attempt to differentiate the power level of a full Jedi, trained and knowledgeable in the Force, with a group of PCs who were learning on their own. When I ran my group through that encounter, one of my players was crushed under a wall and two more were disabled before the encounter ended. Which, I believe, was the intent the writer was going for.

See above. 

Actually, the reason for the "final boss" getting multiple actions in a single turn, is to allow him to face off against a relatively large party of PCs, and still be a threat. This is a standard option for Nemesis level NPCs as stated in the core rules. It has nothing to do with him having been a Clone Wars era Jedi. 

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I understand your point Locket. But, it becomes a case of having your cake and eating it too. You can't have both party parity and a game that treats Jedi and non-jedi the way the prequels do.

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7 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

Not in the films or The Clone Wars, they don't. Half the time the clones are just hiding behind crates or rocks and shooting at droids who are shooting back at them while a Jedi is running around and swatting blaster bolts out of the air. Also, the whole point of the clones, which was emphasized in every clone-centric arc, is that they're "brothers" who work together. I expect the Star Wars game I play to recreate the films and TV shows.

You apparently didn't watch the same show the rest of us watched. Yes theY used cover. Which smart pcs who don't have reflect do. They quite regularly wipe out droids with a fair amount of ease. Cause battle droids don't use cover. Jedi are mobile and carry their own cover. Normals tend to have range and grenades and auto fire. I have played force users in parties of normals.  As long as xp levels are similar it works just fine. Ie Cad Bane and Obi Wan have similar XP levels. Anakin has a little less than Obi-Wan and Ahsoka has probably a third less than Anakin. And the 3 would work just fine in a party.

Edited by Daeglan

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Everyone who thinks uber Jedi, clones, droids, and senators wouldn't work in the same party should check out the Smallville and the Marvel Heroic RPGs - though they're out-of-print. They turn differing power levels from a problem into a virtue.

 

 

Edited by Stan Fresh

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20 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

 

This seems like a pointless argument because you're defining 'a proper Jedi' as 'Better than everyone else'. This system allows you to have a character who does Jedi things like deflect blaster fire, use force powers and be deadly in melee combat in the same party and at the same powerlevel as non-force-users, but you consider this to disqualify them from being a Jedi. 

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7 hours ago, Talkie Toaster said:

This seems like a pointless argument because you're defining 'a proper Jedi' as 'Better than everyone else'. This system allows you to have a character who does Jedi things like deflect blaster fire, use force powers and be deadly in melee combat in the same party and at the same powerlevel as non-force-users, but you consider this to disqualify them from being a Jedi. 

Well said. 

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