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In Savage Spirits, there is this "Escort" to the ARC-170 Fighter, the ARC-40b...

Yeah what bothers me, that it's basically the ARC-170. 3 Pilots, Astromech, twinlinked forward mounted, aftmountetd turret, medium passive sensor range...

Why not just do the ARC-170?

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6 hours ago, TheMOELANDER said:

In Savage Spirits, there is this "Escort" to the ARC-170 Fighter, the ARC-40b...

Yeah what bothers me, that it's basically the ARC-170. 3 Pilots, Astromech, twinlinked forward mounted, aftmountetd turret, medium passive sensor range...

Why not just do the ARC-170?

Age. 15+ years since the ARC-170 which was used by the Republic. That would be my guess.

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Looking on Wookiepedia, they've downgraded the hyperdrive, slightly nerfed the weapons package (torpedoes -> missiles, front medium lasers -> light, rear lasers -> blasters) and dramatically increased the supplies (5 days -> 2 months). The ARC-170 was slow and heavily armoured too, whilst the 40b is described in the text as light and fast, and is a fairly standard speed 4/armour 3-  I'd switch them to 3/4 for a 170.

(They also changed it from Incom/SubPro to KDY...?)

Not entirely sure why they bothered. Clearly they wanted something like the ARC-170 as it's iconic, but maybe they wanted to make a version you could use as the ship for a small (3-4) person party? 5 days of supplies is too few in that case.

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I was actually just listening to the Order 66 podcast where they interviewed two of the designers for this book. (Episode 80)

Jason Marker did all of chapter 2 in this book and he said that this came from a Lego set he had. A variant 170, I don't remember what the set was called. But that's where he got the inspiration, for what it's worth.

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5 minutes ago, Wrenn said:

I was actually just listening to the Order 66 podcast where they interviewed two of the designers for this book. (Episode 80)

Jason Marker did all of chapter 2 in this book and he said that this came from a Lego set he had. A variant 170, I don't remember what the set was called. But that's where he got the inspiration, for what it's worth.

About 90% sure it was this set.

51cNSScEoNL.jpg

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On 17.6.2017 at 1:06 AM, Daeglan said:

Several adventures have battle droids commando droids destroyers

 Several seperatist ships are in stay on target. And so on. Seperatist species are also in several books. 

Don't forget all those ground veicles in Forged in Battle.

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It wouldn't take much to rewrite the duty chart so that it represented the Republic or even the Seperatists. Same goes for the Empire if they ever did an Imperial sourcebook.

Edited by Wrenn
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On 6/16/2017 at 4:12 PM, Daeglan said:

Not really. 

Yes, really. Other games have tried to balance Clone Wars-era Jedi ubermensch with "mundane" career/class builds. They've always failed. There's a huge and unavoidable discrepancy between how Jedi are portrayed in the original trilogy and in the prequels.

On the flip side, pull all the vehicles and equipment you want from the Clone Wars. All of the most iconic pieces from the prequels and the TV show have made it to the career books already.

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And the FFG system handles this much better than previous systems. And as noted most of the stuffnis already in the game. Being jedi is expensive and that is how they are balanced. So no not really.

 

A good example is Cad Bane. He was able to go toe to toe with Obi wan and hold his own. That is a PC non jedi of similar XP to a jedi.

Edited by Daeglan

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2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

And the FFG system handles this much better than previous systems. And as noted most of the stuffnis already in the game. Being jedi is expensive and that is how they are balanced. So no not really.

 

A good example is Cad Bane. He was able to go toe to toe with Obi wan and hold his own. That is a PC non jedi of similar XP to a jedi.

The FFG workaround is to introduce Knight Level Play and skip several sessions worth of XP building game play by giving players a huge dump of points at character generation. A standard character build Force & Destiny character is basically the equivalent of a youngling in terms of powers and capabilities. Shows promise and can handle a lightsaber without hurting himself. Most F&D careers aren't hitting Old Ben Kenobi level Jedi stuff until halfway through the campaign, let alone young Obi-Wan back-flipping around like Spider-Man.

Thematically speaking, Clone Wars-era Jedi were doing Jedi stuff; keeping the peace and leading clone units into battle. They're a bunch of sequestered warrior monks, not adventurers. There's no story reason for them to hang out with "low level/mundane" smugglers and other fringe types for the extended in-game time period that makes up a typical campaign. And that runs completely counter to Fantasy Flight's promise of three game lines (Fringe/War/Force) that are completely compatible. 

A Cad Bane-level player character is a Bounty Hunter (Assassin/Gadgeteer) career PC who is near the end of a campaign. Characters work up to that by filling out their talent trees in-game, they don't start at that level.

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It sounds to me like you thinking i want to play a obiwan level character while everone else plays starting characters. Thay is not even close to what i suggested. 

You could do rex a jedi and a padawan. Or say Hondo. There is no reason one could not do a clone wars games other than your personal hang ups. As long as everyone starts at the same or close to the same xp level it works. And this system handles characters at different XP levels very well.

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17 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

The FFG workaround is to introduce Knight Level Play and skip several sessions worth of XP building game play by giving players a huge dump of points at character generation. A standard character build Force & Destiny character is basically the equivalent of a youngling in terms of powers and capabilities. Shows promise and can handle a lightsaber without hurting himself. Most F&D careers aren't hitting Old Ben Kenobi level Jedi stuff until halfway through the campaign, let alone young Obi-Wan back-flipping around like Spider-Man.

Thematically speaking, Clone Wars-era Jedi were doing Jedi stuff; keeping the peace and leading clone units into battle. They're a bunch of sequestered warrior monks, not adventurers. There's no story reason for them to hang out with "low level/mundane" smugglers and other fringe types for the extended in-game time period that makes up a typical campaign. And that runs completely counter to Fantasy Flight's promise of three game lines (Fringe/War/Force) that are completely compatible. 

A Cad Bane-level player character is a Bounty Hunter (Assassin/Gadgeteer) career PC who is near the end of a campaign. Characters work up to that by filling out their talent trees in-game, they don't start at that level.

Yet a performer, a politico and two soldier captains are a constant source of grouping with the jedi during the clone wars. And that performer is  actually teaching Mace Windu a lesson or two. Wherever Anakin goes, Rex goes with him, same for Cody and Obi-Wan. 

We even just got rules for a teacher: trainer archetype to have the mentor leading the group, while the group does all the action. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yet a performer, a politico and two soldier captains are a constant source of grouping with the jedi during the clone wars. And that performer is teaching actually teaching Mace Windu a lesson or two. Wherever Anakin goes, Rex goes with him, same for Cody and Obi-Wan. 

We even just got rules for a teacher: trainer archetype to have the mentor leading the group, while the group does all the action. 

Except that they weren't constant groupings. Padme and Jar-Jar were narrative foils that served as a catalyst for specific story arcs. In terms of a game, they'd be NPCs to the players' Jedi player characters. Otherwise, what's Jar-Jar going to do when Asoka, Obi-Wan, and Annakin are tromping around Mortis on a vision quest?

If I was playing Captain Rex, I'd be mad that I'm spending three rounds punching a single B1 while my fellow player who is playing Annakin is running around like The Flash, cutting up battle droids by the score. We're both combat builds but one of us is clearly superior to the other when it comes to talents and dice pools.

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22 minutes ago, Concise Locket said:

If I was playing Captain Rex, I'd be mad that I'm spending three rounds punching a single B1 while my fellow player who is playing Annakin is running around like The Flash, cutting up battle droids by the score. We're both combat builds but one of us is clearly superior to the other when it comes to talents and dice pools.

This odd fascination with parity in power levels between players which I find totally odd, besides, the clones literally bring down Jedi Masters on their owns, not only when order 66 is given, but before when they stop the traitor Pong Krell for example. Rex is a force of his own, similar strong as Ahsoka, who plays the Padawan to Anakin who has his mentor Obi-Wan still lurking around as well. 

Neither B1, nor Commando droids ever proofed a problem to Rex, actually not even Droideka. And in this system guns are even stronger than in the show, give a clone an auto-rifle and laugh at reflecting jedi. They just go down like they did on order 66. 



And if by the Bad Batch or Domino Squad arcs show how well the clone wars would even work as setting background for groups with just a few or even just jedi npc characters. 


edit: Grrr, now I really want to play a clone commander or captain in a clone wars party. Jedi, Padawan, a commander and a captain and an astromech. ;-)

Edited by SEApocalypse

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:18 AM, Concise Locket said:

Yes, really. Other games have tried to balance Clone Wars-era Jedi ubermensch with "mundane" career/class builds. They've always failed. There's a huge and unavoidable discrepancy between how Jedi are portrayed in the original trilogy and in the prequels.

On the flip side, pull all the vehicles and equipment you want from the Clone Wars. All of the most iconic pieces from the prequels and the TV show have made it to the career books already.

The problem is also in the rule systems used by D20 and Saga Edition.  More precisely, the use of feats, bought Force Powers, and skill points demonstrated the power struggles in said system.  This is further compounded by WotC's history of book bloat, poor play testing, and skewed rules.

With FFG, the system is more akin to the Shadowrun based karma.  It provides a bit more balance for standard level play, while Knight-level plays differently.  At minimum, while a Force-user might have access to the Force and various Force powers/abilities, a Face or skill monkey character will be more specialized.

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I have a force user among my "normals" in my group. The force user regularly get's showboated by the skillful others. He has the enhance power and the agility upgrade, but he also botches stealth roles, while our dedicated sneaker does not. THIS system is actually the first time, that the. force doesn't make you either a powerhouse or a nincompoop. It actually works.

What you describe is a GM problem. As a GM you have to give your troupe meaningful tasks, that play towards their character. The force user in my group is the socializer, the face. And for a mandalorian he's darn good at it. He just recently got better combat skills (a thing the others practically had from the start due to their career choices - the combat medic droid is tough and can fight due to the soldier career, the Verpine technician outlaw tech made himself gear, that improved his initial stats and the corellian smuggler is just an agility beast) due to the Niman Disciple tree (he found a mentor) and now is basically on par with the others in combat, which is very fitting for a rebel group. He still is mainly the face, but in the same way as the smuggler is the thief and spy, the Verpine is the technician and trader and the medic droid is the healer and the tank.

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On 6/20/2017 at 10:43 AM, SEApocalypse said:

This odd fascination with parity in power levels between players which I find totally odd, besides, the clones literally bring down Jedi Masters on their owns, not only when order 66 is given, but before when they stop the traitor Pong Krell for example. Rex is a force of his own, similar strong as Ahsoka, who plays the Padawan to Anakin who has his mentor Obi-Wan still lurking around as well. 

Neither B1, nor Commando droids ever proofed a problem to Rex, actually not even Droideka. And in this system guns are even stronger than in the show, give a clone an auto-rifle and laugh at reflecting jedi. They just go down like they did on order 66. 



And if by the Bad Batch or Domino Squad arcs show how well the clone wars would even work as setting background for groups with just a few or even just jedi npc characters. 


edit: Grrr, now I really want to play a clone commander or captain in a clone wars party. Jedi, Padawan, a commander and a captain and an astromech. ;-)

One clone doesn't bring down a Jedi, though. As portrayed on screen, it's like five of them circling around one Jedi and shooting holes through him or her. Or by cheesing the rules and just shooting them down in the midst of a starfighter battle.

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On 6/20/2017 at 2:10 PM, Daeglan said:

The clones take out battle droids just as fast as jedi. They use different methonds but are just as capable. Grenades and autofire weapons are often superior to a lightsaber. 

The problems are all in your head. Not in the system. 

Not in the films or The Clone Wars, they don't. Half the time the clones are just hiding behind crates or rocks and shooting at droids who are shooting back at them while a Jedi is running around and swatting blaster bolts out of the air. Also, the whole point of the clones, which was emphasized in every clone-centric arc, is that they're "brothers" who work together. I expect the Star Wars game I play to recreate the films and TV shows.

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