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Malabor

Overwhelming fun

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5 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

So enjoy X-wing, and try not to brag about 1) having a girlfriend and/or 2) the fact that she plays this game with you.

Some people here might cut themselves to that tune.

Haha!  Trust me, I know I'm lucky in this respect.  Want to know what's worse?  She frequently whoops on my Imps with either her Ghost/Miranda list or her new found friend Corran.  

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I know that feeling, the obsession, the waking up at four am remembering an X-Wing battle I could've flown differently and won or dreaming of flying strange new ships. I have literally dreamed about walking into my FLGS and buying more ships. 

However, you're only truly obsessed with this game when you spend all your free time, for months, hours a day, crafting custom cards and dozens of pages of rules for strange collaborative (and competitive) campaigns, involving teams, fleet admirals, sector maps, droid EPTs, and at least ten different kinds of currency for building and upgrading ships (not to mention custom unique pilot abilities built based on RPG-type discussions over your characters' bonds and flaws).

You also count as obsessed with this game if you're one of the people who have agreed to play these psychotic campaigns with me!:D

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Hey man glad you and your SO are having fun. My wife played for a little bit but our game is SW: Destiny.  But I have been playing since wave 1, and conpeteive since wave 2. And from my observation this forum has a lot of salt and is toxic because:

1- they bought the game so they feel entitled to a perfect product. But they forget it's a game, and games always have flaws. You can only find so much in play testing.  And sometimes the line between a casual card and a competitive card OR an okay card and a broken card is razor thin.

2- some players are just bad. And they want to blame X, Y and Z for why they can't beat the meta. I was this way when Phantoms first came out. The lists "I wanted to play" ALWAYS lost to them. If I wanted to win at events, there were lists "I needed to play". That's a big hurdle for people to get over.

Hope you enjoy the game man. There is A LOT of fun to be had.

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I know that feeling, the obsession, the waking up at four am remembering an X-Wing battle I could've flown differently and won or dreaming of flying strange new ships. I have literally dreamed about walking into my FLGS and buying more ships. 

However, you're only truly obsessed with this game when you spend all your free time, for months, hours a day, crafting custom cards and dozens of pages of rules for strange collaborative (and competitive) campaigns, involving teams, fleet admirals, sector maps, droid EPTs, and at least ten different kinds of currency for building and upgrading ships (not to mention custom unique pilot abilities built based on RPG-type discussions over your characters' bonds and flaws).

You also count as obsessed with this game if you're one of the people who have agreed to play these psychotic campaigns with me!:D

Dude!  I dream about x-wing games and ships all the time!  It's crazy.   I had a dream the other night that I had some crazy new imperial ship that had a range 4 attack!  Do you know how disappointed I was when I woke up and realized that there is no range 4?

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23 minutes ago, Malabor said:

Dude!  I dream about x-wing games and ships all the time!  It's crazy.   I had a dream the other night that I had some crazy new imperial ship that had a range 4 attack!  Do you know how disappointed I was when I woke up and realized that there is no range 4?

...oh, but there IS a range 4.

raider-class-corv-fore.png  raider-class-corv-aft.png

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/4/24/the-might-of-the-empire/

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29 minutes ago, Malabor said:

Dude!  I dream about x-wing games and ships all the time!  It's crazy.   I had a dream the other night that I had some crazy new imperial ship that had a range 4 attack!  Do you know how disappointed I was when I woke up and realized that there is no range 4?

What's weird is that I had the same dream, but about the Rebel faction! I had a dream that the ARC-170 had a canon slot and a range 4 canon!

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13 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

What's weird is that I had the same dream, but about the Rebel faction! I had a dream that the ARC-170 had a canon slot and a range 4 canon!

Obviously we're both dreamers.  I just imagine flying up and down the side of the board pew-pewing at people from faaaar away.

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7 hours ago, Malabor said:

<cut for space>

My second question is, and this may blow up in my face, but why all the negativity?   I know it's a competitive game, but it seems like there's a terrible amount of negativity involved in this community lately.  "this ship is too powerful!"  "nerf this!" "Fix this, it sucks" "This card is broken!"  Come on, people, don't you think that FFG playtested the CRAP out of these cards and ships to make sure that everything was legit?   I feel like so many people are bitc#ing just for the sake of bitc@ing. It's a tough game with many layers of tactics and foresight.  OR it's a game where you push little ships around and roll dice.  Either way, it's a ton of fun and if one looks at each "broken" situation as a challenge then really the key is to..."Fly Better".

In all honesty, I envy your position, because the game is still new to you and the pure fun has not been eroded yet. The trouble for us who have been playing for longer is that the flaws become increasingly pronounced and the mistakes FFG make in design become more frequent and damaging to the game state. The gap between 'meta' and 'non-meta' lists hasn't felt so wide since the scourge of the Triple TorpBoats during Wave 8, and the immediate releases (the C-ROC and Wave 11) look to both do nothing to solve that as well as being all quite uninteresting and uninspired (the TIE Aggressor, for example - a shot-up TIE Advanced that gives Imperials the TLT. Yawn).

It isn't helped at all by the 'Great Nerfing' - an FAQ from a little while back that issued hard errata on four cards that were frequently (and often unjustly) complained about. Those changes themselves, while all being heavy-handed, were not the issue; rather opening the door to those kinds of straight changes which has, in turn, led to every amateur game designer thinking they have the solution to buff 'X' ship, or nerf 'Y' ship - hence the absolute swathe of those topics to the point where anything else seems to get drowned out.

'Flying better' can only get you so far at the moment, and that (for me) is what is frustrating about the game right now. The biggest culprit is Attani Mindlink (though it's a symptom, rather than the cause) offering unparalleled and almost uncounterable action efficiency, where all comparable cards (like the TIE/x7 title card) have counterplay, This therefore leads to a game where one player is not being punished for making flight errors or bumping into other ships. Several key Scum ships that can take it are also underpriced for their capabilities and upgrade slots (Jumpmaster, Lancer, and bloody Fenn 'every Scum list has me' Rau), which leads to a very narrow range of viable lists for that faction and, since those lists are at the height of the power curve, only its current counters (insofar as they do counter it) for the other factions have any realistic chance.

As for FFG's playtesting, it becomes harder to attribute much value to it when some of the problems they create are obvious enough that they should have been caught, and when they apparently don't learn from previous errors by repeating them (Lancer after the Jumpmaster debacle, for example)

And though I'm not addressing this next point to you so much, the 'militant casual' attitude of some of the contributors to this thread is just as, if not more so, damaging and polarizing to the community. Competitive players (and events) encourage a balanced and fair game and the sheer size of X-Wing's competitive side means it is in FFG's financial interest to try and achieve that, as well as being better for literally everyone than a game where pointing out imbalances or over/underpowered components isn't allowed because it's 'not having fun', even when such huge chasms exist. No one expects a perfectly balanced game because that is not possible, but that doesn't at all mean that FFG shouldn't still aim to create one, and folk claiming that competition ruins the game or that no one should care about dodgy rules loopholes or imbalances should get the hell off their high horses.

There was a time when I would have agreed entirely with your post, because I did not feel that the power balance was as skewed as it is right now, and far more variety in lists was possible. But the reality of the current state of things is not so rosy, and I'm not so blinded by my love of the core game, or of Star Wars in general, that I won't acknowledge it. And neither should anyone else be, because complacency will lead only to more of the same design mistakes.

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My name is Wurms, and I am an addict.

Some people count sheep in bed to fall asleep, I build lists. I lie in bed after the wifey has fallen asleep and build lists and wonder if a combo will work. Sometimes I dream of lists and combos then wake up and see if they are actually legit. "Cloaking device on Rey!" "Oh, its small ship only, stupid fake dreams."

155998.jpg

 

This game is near perfect in the casual scene. People play what they want and just have fun. You want a 40pt Wedge, no problem! 

The ******* and nerfing outcrys comes from the competitive scene. Certain ships ARE JUST BETTER and you will mostly see just the same 8-10 ships over and over and over again because they give players the best chance of winning CONSISTENTLY.  Casual players dont care much because the list is only around for a game or two. Once you start playing competitive, you will see that you can't even take Wedge because he goes "poof" after 1 round of shooting, and your lists you had fun with on casual Wednesday gets slaughtered in 4 rounds, and you go 0-4 at a local tourney.

There is "casual" Xwing and "competitive" Xwing. I love them both, just dont mix the two. Playing "casually competitive" mostly leads to sadness. Some people can make it work.

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18 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

In all honesty, I envy your position, because the game is still new to you and the pure fun has not been eroded yet. The trouble for us who have been playing for longer is that the flaws become increasingly pronounced and the mistakes FFG make in design become more frequent and damaging to the game state. The gap between 'meta' and 'non-meta' lists hasn't felt so wide since the scourge of the Triple TorpBoats during Wave 8, and the immediate releases (the C-ROC and Wave 11) look to both do nothing to solve that as well as being all quite uninteresting and uninspired (the TIE Aggressor, for example - a shot-up TIE Advanced that gives Imperials the TLT. Yawn).

And though I'm not addressing this next point to you so much, the 'militant casual' attitude of some of the contributors to this thread is just as, if not more so, damaging and polarizing to the community. Competitive players (and events) encourage a balanced and fair game and the sheer size of X-Wing's competitive side means it is in FFG's financial interest to try and achieve that, as well as being better for literally everyone than a game where pointing out imbalances or over/underpowered components isn't allowed because it's 'not having fun', even when such huge chasms exist. No one expects a perfectly balanced game because that is not possible, but that doesn't at all mean that FFG shouldn't still aim to create one, and folk claiming that competition ruins the game or that no one should care about dodgy rules loopholes or imbalances should get the hell off their high horses.

There was a time when I would have agreed entirely with your post, because I did not feel that the power balance was as skewed as it is right now, and far more variety in lists was possible. But the reality of the current state of things is not so rosy, and I'm not so blinded by my love of the core game, or of Star Wars in general, that I won't acknowledge it. And neither should anyone else be, because complacency will lead only to more of the same design mistakes.

I also envy your new position in the game, but because you are still discovering all the greatest tricks on your own (like Corran).  Your pure fun will never be eroded if you play for fun.

And I guess I will accept to title of militant casual and point out that people come to this game to have fun, and always will if they play for fun.  It is only when people start talking about "the meta," "top tier," and "power balance" that the game becomes unfun.

The Meta.  It's is your slavish devotion to this hokey religion that is sucking all the fire out of your galaxy.

Also, see below. :)

13 minutes ago, wurms said:

This game is near perfect in the casual scene. People play what they want and just have fun. You want a 40pt Wedge, no problem! 

There is "casual" Xwing and "competitive" Xwing. I love them both, just dont mix the two. Playing "casually competitive" mostly leads to sadness. Some people can make it work.

 

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23 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

There is "casual" Xwing and "competitive" Xwing. I love them both, just dont mix the two. Playing "casually competitive" mostly leads to sadness. Some people can make it work.

I like this statement a lot.  I feel like as long as we keep playing it for the love the game and the Star Warsy-ness, there shouldn't be a problem.  I'm not mega-competitive person at all (we're not saving lives, we're moving around little ships) so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it too far on the competitive scene.  However, I love the idea of getting together with a bunch of like-minded folks, having a few beers and trying to see who's the better pilot that day. :)  Casual-Tournement?  Is there such a thing?

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1 minute ago, Malabor said:

I like this statement a lot.  I feel like as long as we keep playing it for the love the game and the Star Warsy-ness, there shouldn't be a problem.  I'm not mega-competitive person at all (we're not saving lives, we're moving around little ships) so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it too far on the competitive scene.  However, I love the idea of getting together with a bunch of like-minded folks, having a few beers and trying to see who's the better pilot that day. :)  Casual-Tournement?  Is there such a thing?

My FLGS does an attempt at one

3 ships exact (nashta pup exempt)

one from each faction

all attached upgrades must match faction of the ship

so no midnlink, limited to one broke-master 5000, and very fun (and can finally fly the sky walkers together, granted leia won't be very helpful)

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8 minutes ago, Malabor said:

I like this statement a lot.  I feel like as long as we keep playing it for the love the game and the Star Warsy-ness, there shouldn't be a problem.  I'm not mega-competitive person at all (we're not saving lives, we're moving around little ships) so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it too far on the competitive scene.  However, I love the idea of getting together with a bunch of like-minded folks, having a few beers and trying to see who's the better pilot that day. :)  Casual-Tournement?  Is there such a thing?

Sure.  I mean, we all play this game to win, but when winning becomes necessary, then you get meta.  As other have said, if you sit around with a group of like-minded people, you can certainly play tournament style without all the angst.

I guess for me the best example would be from my M:TG days.  I hated tournaments; went once, and was very turned off.  OTOH, we would get 6 people together for a Sunday afternoon and play a sealed deck tournament with the winner getting to take home some of the unused boosters.  It was a tournament, there was a prize, and we ate a lot of "life token" skittles.

 

And to give credit where it is due, wurms said that not me.  FFG is crossing the quotes.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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8 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

If you just play with your gf then yeah the game is perfect. Come back after a few lgs nights of getting stomped over and over and over again sometimes 100-0  against the SAME list and tell the people complaining it's for no reason. 

The models are fantastic though and outside HOTAC style variants and casual play pretty much the only reason I still buy this game. welcome to hell. ?

Sounds like you need to git gud. 

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1 hour ago, tortugatron said:

Sounds like you need to git gud. 

I enjoy my ships the way I want to, seeing as you don't pay for my ships your opinion means as much to me as the **** the neighbors dog took. Go be a tournament player instead of telling people they should be.

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And I guess I will accept to title of militant casual and point out that people come to this game to have fun, and always will if they play for fun.  It is only when people start talking about "the meta," "top tier," and "power balance" that the game becomes unfun.

The Meta.  It's is your slavish devotion to this hokey religion that is sucking all the fire out of your galaxy.

Also, see below. :)

 

Surely you see the hypocrisy in insulting and talking down to what you deem 'competitive players' while trying to champion your 'casual, we just have fun' attitude to the game as correct? Fun little fact for you - 'fun' is amazingly subjective and for some people, competition in a tighly balanced system is how they enjoy a game, and there is more to it for them than just slinging whatever ships on the table, or having an unspoken 'don't do that even though you can because it makes you a tosser' list of restrictions.

Like it or not, 'the meta' and the relative power of different game pieces affects everyone, and just because some folk refuse to acknowledge them there are balance problems that are in excess of what would be acceptable for a fully varied and interesting game, and they will impact your games whether you're playing in a tournament or just with friends. Like I said before, identifying these problems and pushing for FFG to deal with them creates a better game for everyone, regardless of attitude.

So drop this high and mighty idea that your way to enjoy the game is the only way, and that any kind of discussion that delves further into the mechanics in order to highlight balance problems and dodgy rules interactions is 'anti-fun'. Likewise, stop throwing around the idea that 'playing for fun' is a seperate and defined approach to playing competitively, and that somehow by not interacting with the game on that level you're better than a tournament player because you're 'fun' and they arn't.

It's the exact same nonsense that plagued GW's games for a long time, leading to the trainwreck that was 7th edition 40k where this stuck-up, 'clear rules and balance isn't fun' attitude reached it's logical conclusion - and the game nearly died out because of it. None of us want X-Wing to follow suit, so how about we stop villifying competition and tournaments, accept that the current game is not as balanced as it should be, and stop pretending that ignoring it all makes everything fine or somehow elevates anyone to a higher level of 'fun'.

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2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Surely you see the hypocrisy in insulting and talking down to what you deem 'competitive players' while trying to champion your 'casual, we just have fun' attitude to the game as correct? Fun little fact for you - 'fun' is amazingly subjective and for some people, competition in a tighly balanced system is how they enjoy a game, and there is more to it for them than just slinging whatever ships on the table, or having an unspoken 'don't do that even though you can because it makes you a tosser' list of restrictions.

Like it or not, 'the meta' and the relative power of different game pieces affects everyone, and just because some folk refuse to acknowledge them there are balance problems that are in excess of what would be acceptable for a fully varied and interesting game, and they will impact your games whether you're playing in a tournament or just with friends. Like I said before, identifying these problems and pushing for FFG to deal with them creates a better game for everyone, regardless of attitude.

So drop this high and mighty idea that your way to enjoy the game is the only way, and that any kind of discussion that delves further into the mechanics in order to highlight balance problems and dodgy rules interactions is 'anti-fun'. Likewise, stop throwing around the idea that 'playing for fun' is a seperate and defined approach to playing competitively, and that somehow by not interacting with the game on that level you're better than a tournament player because you're 'fun' and they arn't.

It's the exact same nonsense that plagued GW's games for a long time, leading to the trainwreck that was 7th edition 40k where this stuck-up, 'clear rules and balance isn't fun' attitude reached it's logical conclusion - and the game nearly died out because of it. None of us want X-Wing to follow suit, so how about we stop villifying competition and tournaments, accept that the current game is not as balanced as it should be, and stop pretending that ignoring it all makes everything fine or somehow elevates anyone to a higher level of 'fun'.

All of these are game designer problems.  This thread is about discovering the fun of XWM.  You don't sound like you are having much fun with the game because you are too worried about game design.

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14 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

The game is great, the people you meet at events, tournaments and Organised Play are fantastic people. You laugh, you cry, you make pew pew noises and inappropriate star wars jokes.

Just like any game of this size, you have your core groups/types of people and you know what, that's OK. You can actually play a type of bingo with it:

Tournament High Rollers:
Most of their kit has been replaced with tournament won acrylics costing in the thousands, they fly exceptionally well, consistent and swim amongst the meta. All round, nice guys and worth having a beer with. 

The Win at all costs:
Some of their kit is acrylics and they fly what has recently won store/regional/national events.  They don't mind fortressing or running away for time. Great to talk to before or after a game but during, they may go quiet, its not rude, but planning your defeat takes a lot of concentration!

The Old School Trilogy:
These people keep the faith, they fly TIE Swarms, multiple X wings plus Y wings plus B wings and you WILL have a great game against these guys. Sometimes you can spot them making the cut, other times, you can make them out of the crowd by the most laughable bunch in the room.

The Anti-Meta:
Whatever the most popular ship is at the time, expect these guys and gals to be flying the opposite, even if it means flying four HWKS. They can punch WAY higher than anyone expects and they enjoy every single engagement they enter. Very knowledgeable and great banter. 

All Guts, no shields: 
The die hard fans of TIE interceptors. God bless these guys. Save the dream. . 

The Bombers:
They flew bombers before Sabine and Clusters and every other "fix". They know tactics and strategy better then anyone but they are let down by the fact they solely use bombs and there are no missions in atmosphere. You will know you are against a bomber player by the fact they have either four TIE Bombers, a Punisher or three K wings and more tokens then you ever thought was possible to bring to one game. They may try and convince you that a AT-AT would be a great inclusion for the game and you will agree by the end, because it would be amazing. 

The XG-1 "Star Wing" Assault Gunpoint Society:
If you don't know these people yet, you will and when the ship is finally released, much rejoicing and merry making will be had. Spot them with their "Gif Gunboat pls" picket signs. 

The Hanger Bay'ers:
"I'm just here because the expo was three days and Armada/Destiny/Netrunner/Pokemon hasn't started yet but my lift wanted to play X wing so here I am . . . with four Y wings all equipped with TLT. "

The D.VA players
"Nerf this!!"

All that being said, 90% will be sporting a Star Wars t-shirt, one person will be dressed as a Jedi, another will tell you to let the wookie win (it's advisable) but 100% of people you meet will be friendly, easy going and share a love for the game, despite how much they protest on here. 

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6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

All of these are game designer problems.  This thread is about discovering the fun of XWM.  You don't sound like you are having much fun with the game because you are too worried about game design.

Routinely ignoring the majority of my points does not do your position any favours. As for this thread, there were two questions in the OP which I answered, so there's nothing OT about what I say. And 'game designer problems' is an idiotic phrase - problems with the game are problems for everyone, and burying your head in the sand isn't helpful.

Like I said before (and you cheerfully ignored, presumably because you have no actual counterpoints), fun is subjective and trying to pretend that 'game designer problems' don't matter or don't exist is foolish. Once again you are putting yourself on a pedestal by suggesting this approach is somehow more 'fun' and more acceptable, and trying to draw a fracturing line between 'casual' and 'competitive' in a game that has thus far thrived on it's community but also it's competitive appeal - a large part of X-Wing's success is owed to that and I would attribute a great deal of 'recruitment' for the game to the extensive online media coverage.

As for me personally, you're right that I'm not enjoying the game as much at the moment - primarily because I can no longer do exactly what you and like thinkers champion so much, to throw down unusual or unexpected 'non-meta' lists at my local game club and expect not to have an insurmountable disadvantage from the start, or not to lose at the 'list-building phase'. No one likes to lose if it isn't owed to an error they can identify, and no one likes to know that they can't win (short of the opponent doing something monumentally stupid) after the first round of combat. That's nothing to do with game design, I'd say that's fairly basic human psychology.

As a result, my interest in the game is being eroded because the freedom and enjoyment of list experimentation isn't anywhere near as strong as it has been, and the lack of interesting content in both the C-ROC and Wave 11 has led to me not planning to buy either where before I wouldn't have hesitated to get at least one of everything.

You need to stop trying to associate your specific, personal definition with the word 'fun', because they are not synonymous, and you need to drop the idea that competition and competitive players are somehow 'lesser' than those who don't participate in that side of the game. Ignoring it's problems, or circumventing them with 'house rule' agreements, doesn't solve them and only divides the community. I have the most fun with a game when I feel there was always a reasonable chance I could win without a painful uphill struggle, which right now X-Wing is increasingly struggling to deliver.

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1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:

Routinely ignoring the majority of my points does not do your position any favours. As for this thread, there were two questions in the OP which I answered, so there's nothing OT about what I say. And 'game designer problems' is an idiotic phrase - problems with the game are problems for everyone, and burying your head in the sand isn't helpful.

Like I said before (and you cheerfully ignored, presumably because you have no actual counterpoints), fun is subjective and trying to pretend that 'game designer problems' don't matter or don't exist is foolish. Once again you are putting yourself on a pedestal by suggesting this approach is somehow more 'fun' and more acceptable, and trying to draw a fracturing line between 'casual' and 'competitive' in a game that has thus far thrived on it's community but also it's competitive appeal - a large part of X-Wing's success is owed to that and I would attribute a great deal of 'recruitment' for the game to the extensive online media coverage.

As for me personally, you're right that I'm not enjoying the game as much at the moment - primarily because I can no longer do exactly what you and like thinkers champion so much, to throw down unusual or unexpected 'non-meta' lists at my local game club and expect not to have an insurmountable disadvantage from the start, or not to lose at the 'list-building phase'. No one likes to lose if it isn't owed to an error they can identify, and no one likes to know that they can't win (short of the opponent doing something monumentally stupid) after the first round of combat. That's nothing to do with game design, I'd say that's fairly basic human psychology.

As a result, my interest in the game is being eroded because the freedom and enjoyment of list experimentation isn't anywhere near as strong as it has been, and the lack of interesting content in both the C-ROC and Wave 11 has led to me not planning to buy either where before I wouldn't have hesitated to get at least one of everything.

You need to stop trying to associate your specific, personal definition with the word 'fun', because they are not synonymous, and you need to drop the idea that competition and competitive players are somehow 'lesser' than those who don't participate in that side of the game. Ignoring it's problems, or circumventing them with 'house rule' agreements, doesn't solve them and only divides the community. I have the most fun with a game when I feel there was always a reasonable chance I could win without a painful uphill struggle, which right now X-Wing is increasingly struggling to deliver.

I will certainly grant that you have done a fine job of showing where all the negativity comes from, so I guess you are in fact, OT.

I completely disagree that XWM is growing from You Tube videos of XWM competition.  People, like the OP, are mostly drawn to this game because it is Star Wars.  All the rest comes later and, as you pointed out, can quickly ruin the enjoyment of the shiny new game they discovered.

And lastly, anyone can play how they would like to.  OTOH, I think a lot of the dissatisfaction in XWM is promulgated by tournament-style play.  I am uninterested in it, and in a big way, I think you are the luckier player because toura-meta-x-wing is what FFG cares about.  I, OTOH, am luckier in that I can bring pretty much anything I want to the table and expect to have a positive XWM experience.

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8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I will certainly grant that you have done a fine job of showing where all the negativity comes from, so I guess you are in fact, OT.

I completely disagree that XWM is growing from You Tube videos of XWM competition.  People, like the OP, are mostly drawn to this game because it is Star Wars.  All the rest comes later and, as you pointed out, can quickly ruin the enjoyment of the shiny new game they discovered.

And lastly, anyone can play how they would like to.  OTOH, I think a lot of the dissatisfaction in XWM is promulgated by tournament-style play.  I am uninterested in it, and in a big way, I think you are the luckier player because toura-meta-x-wing is what FFG cares about.  I, OTOH, am luckier in that I can bring pretty much anything I want to the table and expect to have a positive XWM experience.

You are impossible to have a discussion with, because rather than actually engage with my points you revert back to your 'holier-than-thou' attitude, where competition is reviled and the only 'fun' allowed is your way of thinking. Everything else is is 'negativity' with which you refuse to engage because you can't - you havn't even tried to actually argue any points, you just repeat the same thing as if it is gospel, looking down your nose at me and others because we're not all sunshine and rainbows about the game. For the third and final time, 'fun' and a 'positive experience' are subjective, and what you consider those things to be does not apply to everyone, and talking down to anyone who doesn't agree with you the way you have repeatedly done is rude and arrogant at best.

This kind of 'casual elitism' is not a new phenomenon, but it remains a disgraceful attitude that serves only to divide people as you throw around passive-aggressive insults and implications.

If you don't think the mass coverage of the game online contributes in any way to recruitment, you are frankly delusional.

In any case, I am tired of wasting my energy trying to having a discussion with you, because you have repeatedly shown you are incapable of even a rudimentary argument and make no effort at all to engage with points I have actually made. I will not be interacting with you any further.

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23 hours ago, haslo said:

So you're saying that with >250 pilots flying >50 ships in 3 factions and equipping any number between 0 and ~10 of >300 different upgrades, not every single one of billions of permutations of lists flying against each other is tested thoroughly before every release?

I'm shocked.

There'll always be stuff that slips through the cracks. All in all, FFG does an amazing job with balancing the game IMHO.

Exactly.  In my opinion, FFG has only made two serious play-balance mistakes in 4.5 years of X-Wing: Phanton decloaking (which still isn't good, but that's a different subject) and the entire JumpBastard expansion.  Those two things should have been caught in playtesting.

But two serious mistakes, in 4.5 years of a game as complex as X-Wing?  That's not bad at all.

That said, I do think they have learned an immense amount about designing for the game, as it has moved from beer-and-pretzels to cheat-on-stream-competitive, which is why I want to see 2.0.  My desire for 2.0 isn't a condemnation of FFG ... it's a statement of confidence.

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I hate seeing arguments happening in this thread.  I started it to be about the "fun" of the game and my concern for all the negativity.   I understand that a little friendly discussion is good for the brain and that this is a forum after all, but still.   I feel like it's so much more pleasing to read the comments on how fellow players got started with the game or the clever comments or the shared dreams of a range 4 ship...not so much with the arguing and the name-calling.   Can't we all just get along and blast each other to space-bits?

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