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Runewars vs. A Song of Ice and Fire

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The other interesting pic, its a proxy for sure but..........

giant.PNG

Also there are other creatures talked about in the books but never seen, no reason they cant incorporate them too.  Like Grumkins and Snarks

Edited by ryolacap

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4 hours ago, ryolacap said:

No, I never said throughout the game you can have an average per die roll because each die roll effects the next.

I really, hate to pile on, but for the benefit of everybody else reading this thread, I have to disabuse you of the idea that a roll of the dice will affect future dice rolls. It does not. They are independent effects.

4 hours ago, ryolacap said:

I said you get better average results ie. more results that are close to the average ie results with less variance.   If you would stop clutching on to your precious variance key word and simply admit that in between two sides of variance there is an ______________.

Ah, yes. I agree that you get more results (as in attack rolls) close to the average when you roll more dice. But, no need to get snippy over using the correct terminology. I mean, these forums are full of nerds, many of whom have careers that rely on statistics, so...

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17 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

There's a joke in here about massive dice in hands, but I'm not gonna make it cause I don't want to get banned.

LOL, I have played a lot of games with fistfuls of dice, and I always hate it because usually there is such a compounding effect (I am not a math person so that is probably the wrong term) with all the rolls, I roll for my twenty dudes that have 2 attacks so I break out my two bricks of dice and chuck 40 d6's on the table, i throw out all the dice that are under 5's ok cool, i'm left with roughly 12 hits, now i go ok cool they have armor 4 so I am rolling those 12 dice against armor 4 chuck dice...get 6 4+'s, and then they have a 5+ saving throw...ok so now I chuck out my 6 dice and now my opponent throw 6 dice and gets 2 5+'s so I would 4 dudes...out of 40 dice...and the game STOPPED for this whole time... that is needlessly convoluted and just slows gameplay down drastically.  Sure you COULD do more stuff that really does anything with you big old fistfuls of dice but in the end 40dice=4wounds and that is very often the case... So i'm sorry but yeah averages are more likely but I think the less dice+multiplier+modifier wheel adding guaranteed results as long as the attack happens coupled with the reroll mechanic is a preferred system to me and it is much smoother and allows for the action of the battle to move quickly...and also rolling 4 hits on a 3x1 unit that is probably going to die next round is great! 

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8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I really, hate to pile on, but for the benefit of everybody else reading this thread, I have to disabuse you of the idea that a roll of the dice will affect future dice rolls. It does not. They are independent effects.

Ah, yes. I agree that you get more results (as in attack rolls) close to the average when you roll more dice. But, no need to get snippy over using the correct terminology. I mean, these forums are full of nerds, many of whom have careers that rely on statistics, so...

they are not independent effects because losses usually equates to an effect on dice.. less dice or as in this game you lose rerolls and multipliers, that definitely effects the dice results

I agree I am not the one who started this

Edited by ryolacap

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19 minutes ago, jek said:

LOL, I have played a lot of games with fistfuls of dice, and I always hate it because usually there is such a compounding effect (I am not a math person so that is probably the wrong term) with all the rolls, I roll for my twenty dudes that have 2 attacks so I break out my two bricks of dice and chuck 40 d6's on the table, i throw out all the dice that are under 5's ok cool, i'm left with roughly 12 hits, now i go ok cool they have armor 4 so I am rolling those 12 dice against armor 4 chuck dice...get 6 4+'s, and then they have a 5+ saving throw...ok so now I chuck out my 6 dice and now my opponent throw 6 dice and gets 2 5+'s so I would 4 dudes...out of 40 dice...and the game STOPPED for this whole time... that is needlessly convoluted and just slows gameplay down drastically.  Sure you COULD do more stuff that really does anything with you big old fistfuls of dice but in the end 40dice=4wounds and that is very often the case... So i'm sorry but yeah averages are more likely but I think the less dice+multiplier+modifier wheel adding guaranteed results as long as the attack happens coupled with the reroll mechanic is a preferred system to me and it is much smoother and allows for the action of the battle to move quickly...and also rolling 4 hits on a 3x1 unit that is probably going to die next round is great! 

Actually this game is seems pretty reasonable, I have not seen a card with more then 10 dice, which is not that many 

Edited by ryolacap

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17 minutes ago, ryolacap said:

Actually this game is seems pretty reasonable, I have not seen a card with more then 10 dice, which is not that many 

so then it is just ten dice to 3 hits to 1 defensive save? I honestly have not watched any of the videos because I don't feel like investing the time in a game that to me just seems in concept like garbage...and I REALLY like the source material...

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10 minutes ago, jek said:

so then it is just ten dice to 3 hits to 1 defensive save? I honestly have not watched any of the videos because I don't feel like investing the time in a game that to me just seems in concept like garbage...and I REALLY like the source material...

you might roll 8 dice and say get 4 successes then the defense roll is 4 dice (same as each success)  Its very similar Saga, a great skirmish game

Doing it this way gives you many different attributes to play with and much better range of effects

Edited by ryolacap

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Just now, ryolacap said:

you might roll 8 dice and say get 4 successes then the defense roll is 4 dice (same as each success)

Yeah I understand that I meant that you end up with maybe 1-2 successful hits after the defensive saves...but regardless in the grand scheme of statistics a sample pool or 4 and a sample pool of 10 are not going to be THAT much different especially when you compare a standard d6 to the customized d8/d12s there are a lot more situations where the custom dice that have a greater chance of doing SOMETHING will be more effective than a pool of d6's rolling 4+, and I have seen some pretty devastating effects with no actual hits rolled on my part.

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16 minutes ago, jek said:

Yeah I understand that I meant that you end up with maybe 1-2 successful hits after the defensive saves...but regardless in the grand scheme of statistics a sample pool or 4 and a sample pool of 10 are not going to be THAT much different especially when you compare a standard d6 to the customized d8/d12s there are a lot more situations where the custom dice that have a greater chance of doing SOMETHING will be more effective than a pool of d6's rolling 4+, and I have seen some pretty devastating effects with no actual hits rolled on my part.

yes exactly, you will most likely get 2-3 kills but it all depends on hit and defense values of course and its consistent for the most part.  I watch a how to play video in Runewars, the very first roll was 12 hits which practically wiped out the skeletons and ended any chance for the undead player.  You get a lot less of that type stuff happening unless as a designer you want it,  you could cause it by simply having a easy to hit and a horrible defense value.  You have a much better range to play with in this type of system.

Edited by ryolacap

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8 minutes ago, ryolacap said:

yes exactly, you will most likely get 2-3 kills but it all depends on hit and defense values of course and its consistent for the most part.  I watch a how to play video in Runewars, the very first roll was 12 hits which practically wiped out the skeletons and ended any chance for the undead player.  You get a lot less of that type stuff happening unless as a designer you want it,  you could cause it by simply having a easy to hit and a horrible defense value.  You have a much better range to play with in this type of system, and you could you custom dice for it too

Which how to play video?

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3 hours ago, jek said:

Averages are more likely

Totally true, but i never argued that.  Same thing happens in baseball.  Guys have cold streaks in April and hit .115 then as they get more ABs they start "hitting to their baseball card" as they say.  So yes more data points will bear out the average of a dice roll.

what I wanted him to define for me was "the average number of successes" which he never did.  Every form of mathematics needs a definition of assumptions.  It was actually in an effort to understand what he was trying to communicate, I.e. is it global, per game, per tournament, etc.

I would love to have a chat, you can probably best reach me (cause I can't figure out how to pm here) by messaging the Runecasters FB page).

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So this hit kickstarter yesterday https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cmon/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-tabletop-miniatures-game?ref=home_popular

more information and a more polished gameplay vid from Rodney Smith 

what do we all think? Here's what I said on Reddit: 

Quote

 

To boardgamers this looks expensive at $150, but for a minis game it looks great value, for the amount and quality of content. More and better minis than most other starter boxes. 

Personally I'm ambivalent to GOT, so the setting does nothing for me. And having looked at the gameplay and Rodney's video there's nothing particularly innovative here. Not sure I like the look of the tactics cards - makes the game look pretty random and/or 'gotcha' - like you can plan and strategise all you want but you may be undone by a simple card the opponent had. 

I think it's no coincidence that Warhammer 40K 8th edition, Runewars and now this have all cropped up at around the same time. 3 big heavy weight publishers are going toe to toe with their respective army scale games. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out. 

40K is bullet proof, FFG (imho) have the best rule set and gameplay and CMON have GOT licence and fandom behind them and kickstarter hype. Releasing up to a year after the other two may cost CMON though, and they've no real track record of supporting games or making a go of competitive organised play games - the bread and butter of GW and FFG.

 

 

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CMON are so light on when it comes to rules for their games, not a fan of Zombieside though Blood Rage is good. 

http://resources.cmon.com/SIF-RULEBOOK-WIP.pdf

I think it is a backward step in game design, fistfuls of dice and then an armour save.  Not very progressive rule making there. The move mechanic is a bit simple so there isn't any setting up charges or blocking, you can just pivot and go around stuff. Random charge length, wierd they picked that up.

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2 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

So this hit kickstarter yesterday https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cmon/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-tabletop-miniatures-game?ref=home_popular

more information and a more polished gameplay vid from Rodney Smith 

what do we all think? Here's what I said on Reddit: 

 

Just goes to show that *** product can really sell when having a great IP to back them up. I'm sad now seeing how much they have brought in so far. Scalpers all of them I bet.

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Yup...nope...why are their models for Cersei and Tyrion...I get that they want to finangle politics into the game to have more of a ASoFaI feel buuuuut these people were never near an actual battle...(well Tyrion was at blackwater bay...and has been in a few scrapes in the show passed where the book ended...but still)...and as I thought these models are all pretty meh looking, its grey humans vs red humans...bleh...

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11 minutes ago, jek said:

Yup...nope...why are their models for Cersei and Tyrion...I get that they want to finangle politics into the game to have more of a ASoFaI feel buuuuut these people were never near an actual battle...(well Tyrion was at blackwater bay...and has been in a few scrapes in the show passed where the book ended...but still)...and as I thought these models are all pretty meh looking, its grey humans vs red humans...bleh...

That's why they are not in the battle! They are basically used as markers for the political effects represented in the game. I think it's a neat way to include minis for these iconic characters. Also, I do love the minis - I think they are really well done. Completely different style to Runewars of course (realistic vs comic-style). 

But I really don't like the rules. They look so much less interesting than the Runewars system. So I'm happy I got into RW instead of waiting for ASoIaF. 

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24 minutes ago, Uthoroc said:

That's why they are not in the battle! They are basically used as markers for the political effects represented in the game. I think it's a neat way to include minis for these iconic characters. Also, I do love the minis - I think they are really well done. Completely different style to Runewars of course (realistic vs comic-style). 

But I really don't like the rules. They look so much less interesting than the Runewars system. So I'm happy I got into RW instead of waiting for ASoIaF. 

yeah, I made my first post before looking at the rules, the character minis look interesting. I'll give them that, but I expect CMON to make nice looking minis, but the R&F infantry just look bland to me, but I think that is because all the standard infantry across the factions are just armored guys with swords...the Starks at least have the cool zerkers, but everything in the lanister's army are just meh (they basically just look like empire statesmen with the different weapon options,) But I am with you completely in that the rules just look like a huge step in the wrong direction...it is just rehashing a lot of the worst parts of rank and file...

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In on the fence with this one, my mind is clouded by nostalgia for playing warhammer 20 years ago. I also love that they have a GRRM figure.

You wont know the value of the KS until near the end, it started with 103 models for $150 and has quickly gained more models.

If it comes with enough models to play a supersized game of battles of westeros I'll be happy.

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despite the games looking like very similar products they are in fact very different in practice.

The model for ASOIF is much closer to a game like Battle lore. a full out of the box experience, and I'm guessing big expansion boxes down the line for more factions. This is a big box game.

FFG's model for rune wars is a starter set and then many small releases over time to keep players interested. this is a "Life Style" game or a living game.


If you want to play in an environment that is always fresh and interesting RW:MG is your bet. If you want a grand a game you can play with another friend over and over without it changing all the **** time then ASOIF is your bet.

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I don't like what I see so far, despite being a big fan of the source material. Didn't notice if the rulebook is available but the movement looks basic, combat looks too dicey, no variable initiative, no hidden orders... and while it's not advertised as such the lack of fantasy is a negative in my book.  A Direwolf and hound masters looks like the only things that standout from the rest, otherwise it looks very generic medieval to me.  I imagine there might be White Walkers and zombies in the future... maybe dragons depending on the scale?

The strategic sidebar aspect looks interesting but feels disjointed to me.  I have this nifty Lady Cately figure but I just use her as a placeholder for some special ability she grants because...?  Runewars rune system is much more thematic and better integrated with the games units and special abilities.

Having said all that, I imagine this will make millions.

 

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If I'm going to play standard medieval warfare, there are a half-dozen 15mm systems out there that really shine. Totally passing on this. I'm cool with Rune Wars all the way for my rank & file.

Edited by Blutsteigen

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