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Multi-Player Variant.

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I have a feeling that the personality cards are for multiplayer, and they will specifically pit 2 players against one another for the honor bid.  For odd numbers one player will simply be able to "bid" and draw 2, without paying for it.  That just sort of assumes the "ghost" player (the personality not picked) bids 2.  Who knows, maybe each personality has different bids if not picked, and if the one you picked is matched against that personality, you draw that amount.  Makes it a little gamier, especially for the first person to pick a personality.

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1 hour ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

Not a bad plan. I like it. What if when you draw cards you just bid against the player to your right? And maybe give extra cards to players who go later in the turn?

It's a two-way street as designed. Checking only one way creates weird incentives and unbalances the zero sum bid system, creating a situation where honor can be conjured from the ether.

Which isn't inherently an issue, but probably would result in balance issues due to the 1v1 game being designed on the assumptiom that the bid system itself can't change the players' honor totals, and independent gains and losses must come from other card and game effects.

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1 hour ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Or they have no such plans and are keeping quiet so that those of us hellbent on multiplayer don't lose interest too soon.

Indeed. "No," is one of the worst things you can say while marketing a new product, even if it's true.

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Well they're definitely not ruling it out. Cards that care (like the recently spoiled Good Omen) are explicitly worded for multiple opponents. So even if they don't launch with it, they're definitely considering developing it. They could definitely make semantics (and mechanics) easier on themselves if they were going to rule out multiplayer entirely.

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3 hours ago, BD Flory said:

The what cards now? I must have missed these.

There was a box contents up on the Spanish language site previously (don't know if it's still there).  It listed: 7 Stronghold Cards, 17 Province Cards, 117 Dynasty Cards, 98 Conflict Cards, 5 Personality Cards, then went on to the tokens and honour dials etc.  So far there has been no hint as to what these are at all.  One current theory is that they are like the 6 title cards from the A Game of Thrones core box that are used for the melee games.

Edited by Tonbo Karasu

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I have never understood the appeal for multiplayer. It isn't fun having everyone go against you and getting killed off early and then just sitting there waiting for the rest of the game to finish just to be able to repeat that experience. If you have 4 people, just play 1v1 and switch opponents. A much better gaming experience for everyone.

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39 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

I have never understood the appeal for multiplayer. It isn't fun having everyone go against you and getting killed off early and then just sitting there waiting for the rest of the game to finish just to be able to repeat that experience. If you have 4 people, just play 1v1 and switch opponents. A much better gaming experience for everyone.

If you're always killed first it means either 1) You talk too big, or 2) You played too big.  Multiplayer games always have a very real political type atmosphere that I think is more fitting for L5R than any other game.  You want to be strong, but you can't let yourself be "too strong" at any point, or you will have people ally against you.  It's another layer to the game.

When I first played L5R I played in several larger games.  As a Scorpion player I decided to just do random d*ck things, but I was always killed first with no allies.  I was basically the noob scorpion who thought they were supposed to just do d*ck things...  Then I evolved.  I started helping people out in multiplayer.  Maybe give them an attachment, or lose a duel to charge a bloodsword or to play ring of fire, or point out who is strongest and only target them with a poisoned weapon or something...  Basically ride that line of useful to other players, but not a threat to win...  Then sometimes I'm able to still win because I can build up the right invisible power, cards in my hand that can be used to still take out whoever is left at the right moment...

I still get ganged up on often in multiplayer, and it's okay too because outside of the 1v1 environment it's easier to take a loss gracefully, because sometimes you are just !@#$ed lol.  But we all have a lot of fun with it ^_^  The main thing multiplayer needs is a way to end without actually going out to the last man.  You need something like the War of Honor track where people aren't eliminated before the game is over.

IMO - It's the best kind of L5R to play.

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17 minutes ago, shosuko said:

If you're always killed first it means either 1) You talk too big, or 2) You played too big.  Multiplayer games always have a very real political type atmosphere that I think is more fitting for L5R than any other game.  You want to be strong, but you can't let yourself be "too strong" at any point, or you will have people ally against you.  It's another layer to the game.

I always loved the big multiplayer format.  We would play wide open (Ninja, Spirit, Naga, Monks, Ratling, Toturi's Army, etc.) and you got to see lots of cool tricks.  Also, because the pace was slower, you could add items (ancestral armors) and things into your deck that you would never include in strait up play (I had a Mantis deck out of Kyuden Yoritomo with Master Smith in it :D).  Of course, as the game went on, people who were getting close to victory started to get targeted (over 30 honor = lots of province loss), but that is to be expected - nobody wants to lose.  You just had to design a deck for multiplayer (where honor victories are like wearing a target on your head).

I could see multiplayer format in a Clan-War type story;

- Victory by honor is suspended (the Emperor is looking away from the conflict), but honor can be bartered for usage as fate (maybe at a 2:1 or 3:1 value - haven't played so I can't say for sure).

- After a set time, provinces destroyed on your attack, and your remaining honor are tallied to declare the winner (Call it Shogun of Rokugan)

Just tossing it out there . . .

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10 hours ago, shosuko said:

If you're always killed first it means either 1) You talk too big, or 2) You played too big.  Multiplayer games always have a very real political type atmosphere that I think is more fitting for L5R than any other game.  You want to be strong, but you can't let yourself be "too strong" at any point, or you will have people ally against you.  It's another layer to the game.

When I first played L5R I played in several larger games.  As a Scorpion player I decided to just do random d*ck things, but I was always killed first with no allies.  I was basically the noob scorpion who thought they were supposed to just do d*ck things...  Then I evolved.  I started helping people out in multiplayer.  Maybe give them an attachment, or lose a duel to charge a bloodsword or to play ring of fire, or point out who is strongest and only target them with a poisoned weapon or something...  Basically ride that line of useful to other players, but not a threat to win...  Then sometimes I'm able to still win because I can build up the right invisible power, cards in my hand that can be used to still take out whoever is left at the right moment...

I still get ganged up on often in multiplayer, and it's okay too because outside of the 1v1 environment it's easier to take a loss gracefully, because sometimes you are just !@#$ed lol.  But we all have a lot of fun with it ^_^  The main thing multiplayer needs is a way to end without actually going out to the last man.  You need something like the War of Honor track where people aren't eliminated before the game is over.

IMO - It's the best kind of L5R to play.

Naw. It didn't matter what my board was like. It didn't even matter if I took an action in the game. It would just be everyone else against me. It's a stupid format.

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The thing is with multiplayer, when you're good, you can't play anymore because every time you sit at the table, you're the first to be eliminated, because whatever you play or say, you're seen as the top menace.

 

It gets boring. And after an evening like that, I'll just refuse to  play multiplayer again.

It happened with Magic, it happened with L5R, it happened with AGoT. Not been a fan of multiplayer ever since.

Edited by Ser Nakata
Added something

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9 hours ago, Ser Nakata said:

The thing is with multiplayer, when you're good, you can't play anymore because every time you sit at the table, you're the first to be eliminated, because whatever you play or say, you're seen as the top menace.

 

It gets boring. And after an evening like that, I'll just refuse to  play multiplayer again.

It happened with Magic, it happened with L5R, it happened with AGoT. Not been a fan of multiplayer ever since.

Well look at it this way: at least you're not salty about it.

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48 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Well look at it this way: at least you're not salty about it.

Right?  lol

I said it before and I'll say it again - multiplayer puts an emphasis in HOW you play with others, not just WHAT you play in the game.  Its much more like poker.  If you lay your hand down, and it's strong, other players will gang up to beat you.  If you have a reputation for being a very skilled player, you may also get swarmed...  BUT if you play conservatively and help others feel they are doing well and improving (even if they will ultimately lose to you) the group will not be as eager to simply beat you up.  IMO it's the most real L5R experience you could have.

People who have problems in multiplayer games like Sparks and Ser describe are likely facing these because they set themselves up to be seen as a target - either through their words and actions, or by playing too boldly.

Also it really REALLY helps to be humble, and play to enjoy the game in winning or losing.  In a 1v1 pvp game every game will typically feature 1 winner and 1 loser.  In a multiplayer game there will still be 1 winner, but 2+ losers.  You must be less married to winning to enjoy the game because more people are going to lose, and it just might be you that loses.  For this reason I also strongly recommend playing casually (or at least seeming to) while focusing on helping others understand the game better and being sure they enjoy the game.  This can earn you a lot more repeat-opponents even when you win as they feel they enjoyed the game and learned more while playing in spite of the final standing.

This is also part of why multiplayer games need to be decided sooner than a 1v1 game.  1v1 can play until elimination but a 3+ player format should go no further than when the first player is eliminated.  No one wants to sit around and watch a game continue.  There are a lot of different types of 3+ player formats and choosing the correct one for any group is important.

Edited by shosuko

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I never see the appeal of multi-player formats that leads to a players elimination. As usually the crap end of the stick, usually first knocked out because I'm the weakest player 9/10. I'm an easy target to get removed, and I do. I can have fun playing the game, but I don't have fun always losing.

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1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

I never see the appeal of multi-player formats that leads to a players elimination. As usually the crap end of the stick, usually first knocked out because I'm the weakest player 9/10. I'm an easy target to get removed, and I do. I can have fun playing the game, but I don't have fun always losing.

That's why I hope it'll be a 2v2 deal.  I don't think 3 or 5 way battles work well as competitive formats.

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57 minutes ago, illenvillen said:

That's why I hope it'll be a 2v2 deal.  I don't think 3 or 5 way battles work well as competitive formats.

It really depends on the design. If you can keep everyone in the game in an interesting way, it's fine.

2v2 is much less interesting to me because in many ways, it's just a scaled up version of the game we have. A third player (or more) is an interesting new variable.

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13 hours ago, RandomJC said:

I never see the appeal of multi-player formats that leads to a players elimination. As usually the crap end of the stick, usually first knocked out because I'm the weakest player 9/10. I'm an easy target to get removed, and I do. I can have fun playing the game, but I don't have fun always losing.

War of honor removed player elimination, destroying provinces removed extra actions, but you could not eliminate a player outright. 

Similar ideqs could be used. Or even have something like shared provinces, so you may have to help an enemy if you want to keep your province. 

Forced alliances seem to fit the theme anyway. 

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