Any Official Ruling on the Snap Wexley Red Maneuver + Pattern Analyzer combo?

[iamzoner 17]

To me the card says after the action step.

[iamzoner 17]

I'm not confused about when to check pilot stress from PA, now I'm confused about when stress applied from a situation such as Snap Shot + R3-A2 is effective.

 

It either interrupts the ability of the action that has yet to be taken or it gets checked after the action is performed, which is a pretty big difference.

Edited June 20, 2017 by iamzoner

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

4 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

I'm not confused about when to check pilot stress from PA, now I'm confused about when stress applied from a situation such as Snap Shot + R3-A2 is effective.

 

It either interrupts the ability of the action that has yet to be taken or it gets checked after the action is performed, which is a pretty big difference.

welcome to the crux of the argument.

[iamzoner 17]

I think I figured this one out. The entire issue with the check pilot stress step is not to determine whether the ship has a stress token or not, it is to determine whether or not a stress token needs to either be applied or removed due to a manuver. So in the above case, Quickdraw would receive a stress due to snap shot and r3-a2, therefore interrupting her ability to take an action as she is now stressed. Then PA checks whether or not another token is added due to a red manuver or taken away due to a green manuver. In either case, the action is no longer allowed as it is prevented by the snap shot stress.

[iamzoner 17]

I think this entire thread got lost with the question of whether or not PA changes the order of any of the steps. It doesn't change anything other than when to check pilot stress. Changing the timing though doesn't change the order of events.

1. Reveal dial
2. Execute Maneuver
a. Move Ship
b. Check Pilot Stress (This now gets done after action step by PA)
c. Clean up

**This is where snap shot triggers. R3-A2 deals stress at the time the target of the attack is declared. Basically as soon as the person says they are going to shoot, you both get the stress**

3. Perform Action (At this point you are stressed and can't perform any actions while stressed)

**Now check pilot stress occurs due to PA. If you performed a red you would now be double stressed. If you performed a green you would actually remove the stress you just received. Good for next turn but the action has already been missed.**

 

In similar fashion, Snap Wexley can perform a free boost, along with a regular action after doing a red T-Roll since the check isn't until after PA. The only thing that would prevent this is if his T-Roll move puts him into the firing arc of a snap shot + R3-A2 ability which then stresses him before he can take his free boost. It would now also leave him without any actions and double stressed.

Edited June 20, 2017 by iamzoner

[Bascaria 38]

13 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

I think this entire thread got lost with the question of whether or not PA changes the order of any of the steps. It doesn't change anything other than when to check pilot stress. Changing the timing though doesn't change the order of events.

1. Reveal dial
2. Execute Maneuver
a. Move Ship
b. Check Pilot Stress (This now gets done after action step by PA)
c. Clean up

**This is where snap shot triggers. R3-A2 deals stress at the time the target of the attack is declared. Basically as soon as the person says they are going to shoot, you both get the stress**

3. Perform Action (At this point you are stressed and can't perform any actions while stressed)

**Now check pilot stress occurs due to PA. If you performed a red you would now be double stressed. If you performed a green you would actually remove the stress you just received. Good for next turn but the action has already been missed.**

 

In similar fashion, Snap Wexley can perform a free boost, along with a regular action after doing a red T-Roll since the check isn't until after PA. The only thing that would prevent this is if his T-Roll move puts him into the firing arc of a snap shot + R3-A2 ability which then stresses him before he can take his free boost. It would now also leave him without any actions and double stressed.

The question is when do you finish executing a maneuver. Is it always after the clean up substep (as you are suggesting here) or is it only after all 3 substeps of executing a maneuver (move, check stress, clean up) have occurred. 

If it is the first option, then your explanation is correct.

If it is the second option, then Snap Wexley would not be able to do his free boost after a talon roll because that, by definition, can only occur after he has executed a maneuver, which means after he has checked stress, which means after he has gotten the stress from the talon roll.

The interaction with Snap Shot is the question of can the moving ship (with PA) perform an action prior to Snap Shot triggering by invoking PA. If it is the first option, then no they cannot. If it is the second option, then yes they can. 

I and nobody else are looking to relitigate this issue. I'm just trying to make the question clear to you.

[iamzoner 17]

It's fine. I now understand the question and the concerns. I am of the camp that the question "If" regarding the order of the printed rules is an invalid question to start with. To me there simply is no 'if" and therefore, no concern. I wont hold my breath on any errata since if the devs are of the same opinion that I am regarding the rules, they will probably ignore the question entirely.

Edited June 20, 2017 by iamzoner

[muribundi 406]

14 hours ago, iamzoner said:

if the devs are of the same opinion that I am regarding the rules, they will probably ignore the question entirely.

LOL they answer way easier question then that by mail. Way way way easier then that. Like:

"can I spend a focus token for the normal effect and another focus token for a card effect even if the game prevent me to spend multiple focus token in an attack"

That is the kind of really basic question they answer by mail. So the fact that they never answered this specific question is the perfect proof that it is not as clear cut as you want to believe it is. Clear cut answer receive quick answer from them, tricky one where they check if something need to be errata or not are the one that never receive an answer.

Edited June 21, 2017 by muribundi

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Yup can confirm.  They answer questions which have clear cut answers by email.  They answer questions without clear cut answers with silence for several months, then an FAQ release, THEN email.

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yup can confirm.  They answer questions which have clear cut answers by email.  They answer questions without clear cut answers with silence for several months, then an FAQ release, THEN email.

*taps fingers on desk* No that's fine...just have to TO/Judge an event July 16...go ahead, let's leave this unresolved. Thanks devs...

[Bascaria 38]

1 hour ago, ZealuxMyr said:

*taps fingers on desk* No that's fine...just have to TO/Judge an event July 16...go ahead, let's leave this unresolved. Thanks devs...

I'm with you. Sent them an email 2 months ago looking for clarification. I glance over everyone's list as they are turned in to see if anyone is running PA with something that might cause this interaction and just let them know at the start how I'll be ruling it, then give them a chance prior to the event beginning to adapt their list if necessary.

The nightmare scenario is having to tell someone in the middle of the event that the combo they're trying to pull off doesn't work, and it's too late to change.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 hour ago, ZealuxMyr said:

*taps fingers on desk* No that's fine...just have to TO/Judge an event July 16...go ahead, let's leave this unresolved. Thanks devs...

It can't hurt to ask.

TBH, the answer to this at a tournament is 'TO's ruling is final, always'.  And if you find that you literally don't know the answer and don't want to favour one person over the other, randomise the decision, but make it consistent for the rest of the tourney.

Or ask people to approach you during their first setup for rulings on unclear items and decide then, possibly in the same manner.

As long as it's consistent and known in advance, it's at least fair.

[iamzoner 17]

Well if I was to put aside the entire issue of this thread for Snap Wexley or even Quickdraw, what good would the card Pattern Analyzer be in any other playing condition? What would it be used for?

Edited June 22, 2017 by iamzoner

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Doing your action before you get stress off a red move, or before you get stress from debris, or pushing the limit (or raging) before you clear stress from a green.

[iamzoner 17]

So then do triggered, free actions somehow fall into a different timing window than performed actions in step 3?

[Bascaria 38]

9 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

So then do triggered, free actions somehow fall into a different timing window than performed actions in step 3?

Yes, they activate in the timing window given for them.

For Snap Wexley, that window is "after you execute a 2-, 3-, or 4- speed maneuver [...]" which is a very different window than during the perform action step. Ordinarily, that window occurs after step 2(c) and before step 3. However, Pattern Analyzer moves step 2(b) to after step 3, and so the question becomes:

Does the "after executing a maneuver" window always fall after step 2(c) or does it only occur after all 3 substeps of completing a maneuver have been executed, regardless of ordering or positioning relative to other steps? Compelling arguments have been made for both sides and the consensus at this point seems to be only that consensus cannot be reached -- although a majority of those involved in active rules discussions believes that the window always occurs after 2(c). 

[iamzoner 17]

Alright. So I understand now where the debate enters into the discussion. Now, I was not currently aware that after executing a manuver trigger check fell into a slot between step 2c and step 3 of the activation phase timing chart. Is this in the rules somewhere where I have missed it? We have an entire timing chart to clearly show the sequence of events in the combat phase. Is there a similar chart to show the sequence of events during the activation phase in order to show this spot between step 2c and step 3 for triggered abilities and actions?

Edited June 22, 2017 by iamzoner

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

6 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

Alright. So I understand now where the debate enters into the discussion. Now, I was not currently aware that after executing a manuver trigger check fell into a slot between step 2c and step 3 of the activation phase timing chart. Is this in the rules somewhere where I have missed it? We have an entire timing chart to clearly show the sequence of events in the combat phase. Is there a similar chart to show the sequence of events during the activation phase in order to show this spot between step 2c and step 3 for triggered abilities and actions?

If there were an answer to the question, do you really think the question would have been argued about for 5 pages?

[Bascaria 38]

57 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

Alright. So I understand now where the debate enters into the discussion. Now, I was not currently aware that after executing a manuver trigger check fell into a slot between step 2c and step 3 of the activation phase timing chart. Is this in the rules somewhere where I have missed it? We have an entire timing chart to clearly show the sequence of events in the combat phase. Is there a similar chart to show the sequence of events during the activation phase in order to show this spot between step 2c and step 3 for triggered abilities and actions?

The window falls there because step 2 is executing a maneuver, and it consists of 3 substeps (a, b, c) and is followed by step 3 (perform action). Thus, in the ordinary course of events, you will have executed a maneuver at the point after you finish step 2(c) but before you begin step 3. 

We don't need a chart to see this, nor would a chart be helpful, because Pattern Analyzer changes the order of these steps and would thus invalidate any chart that existed.

ETA: And again, nobody in this thread is looking to relitigate this question, nor are we looking for you to provide a solution. Everyone here is perfectly content to say that we don't know and wait for an official answer. I can't reiterate this enough -- this question cannot be solved by anything other than developer fiat. You will not be able to find a solution.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bascaria

[InquisitorM 632]

25 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If there were an answer to the question, do you really think the question would have been argued about for 5 pages?

I have a feeling that you might have missed the crux of the question. Let's hope we can clarify...

33 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

Now, I was not currently aware that after executing a manuver trigger check fell into a slot between step 2c and step 3 of the activation phase timing chart.

I wasn't absolute sure what you meant by this, but I think this quote of yours implies the possibility that you may have a significant misunderstanding about how free actions work:

4 hours ago, iamzoner said:

So then do triggered, free actions somehow fall into a different timing window than performed actions in step 3?

To me, this seems to imply that you thought free actions happened during the perfor action step. If I am wrong, please feel free to tell me to shut my cake hole, but until then, I will proceed on the basis that that was (at least previously) true.

Free actions and the Perform Action step have absolutely nothing to do with each other whatsoever. Free actions are taken whenever a card tells you to take free actions. Thus, they can potentially happen at absolutely any point during a turn. Cards that grant free actions are either actions themselves, such as Push the Limit or Expert Handling, or they are triggered effects with a timing window. This timing window is no different to the timing window for any other ability: trigger happens, execute card effect. In the case of something like Colonel Vessery, the trigger is 'after you roll attack dice', so at that exact moment you resolve his effect of either gaining a free target lock or not. Note that gaining a target lock in that situation is not an action. The new TIE/x7 title, however, grants a free evade action after a speed 3 or higher maneuver that does not bump a ship or overlap an obstacle. At the exact moment that trigger is met, you either use the ability of your don't. In the case of x7, you can perform your free evade action after executing the appropriate maneuver. The window to activate that effect will have passed by the time you enter the Perform Action Step, since that starts after step 2, Execute Maneuver, completes. X7 could not cause a barrel roll during step 3 because that's not it's timing window.

Jake Farrell is a more interesting case as there are so very many ways for him to meet his trigger of being assigned a focus token. That could happen before his activation starts, at almost any point during it, at some point after it, at the beginning of the combat phase, during another ship's attack, during the End Phase, etc, etc. Any time he could be passed a focus token he can trigger his free action which must be performed then and there or not at all. It cannot be 'stored' for later.

So when you say:

50 minutes ago, iamzoner said:

there a similar chart to show the sequence of events during the activation phase in order to show this spot between step 2c and step 3 for triggered abilities and actions?

I have to assume that you have missed this core concept since the timing chart would have to show every single possible trigger for every ability ever printed in every possible place it can trigger. In short, it's not so much that such a chart doesn't exist but that such a chart could not exist. All this is covered under the golden rule: cards override the rules. When Snap says execute a boost after a speed 2, 3, or 4 maneuver that did not bump, then you trigger that ability to take your boost at the exact moment described on the card – the Perform Action step doesn't come into it.

And this is where Pattern Analyser blurs the issue, by raising the question of when the 'after you execute a maneuver' trigger is met.

[iamzoner 17]

Sure, well it's only an issue to anyone who makes it an issue.

[AWingXWinger 2]

Seriously? OK, let's just take this slowly and read the rules.

Execute Maneuver: 
Resolve the following substeps in order:
a. move ship

b. check pilot stress

c. cleanup

Pattern Analyzer
When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step).

Ergo, with Pattern Analyzer, Execute Maneuver becomes
Resolve the following substeps in order:
a. move ship
c. cleanup

There's no "substep b." It has been removed and placed after Step 3. There's no "2b." There never was. There was Step 2 and substep b. Nowhere does the rule state that the step or substep designation is transitive. Nowhere does it state that such designations are nominal; they're ordinal descriptors. As with any ordinal descriptor, they're lost as soon as the order is changed. A lot of myopic inferencing that fails to recognize the entirety of the "Execute Maneuver" rule doesn't change that...

The important bit, again, is "Resolve the following substeps in order." Since substep b may have been removed from that list by Pattern Analyzer, it is no longer designated under "Resolve the following substeps in order." 

Pattern Analyzer writes an exception to "in order," but it also affects what "the following substeps" designates, since "check pilot stress" is now a post-Step-3 substep.

In other words, yes, of course Snap Wexley with Pattern Analyzer gets his boost after a Tallon Roll.

There's a reason FFG doesn't bother with this sort of thing.
 

Edited June 25, 2017 by AWingXWinger

[Bullox 857]

1 hour ago, AWingXWinger said:

Seriously? OK, let's just take this slowly and read the rules.

Execute Maneuver: 
Resolve the following substeps in order:
a. move ship

b. check pilot stress

c. cleanup

Pattern Analyzer
When executing a maneuver, you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the "Perform Action" step (instead of before that step).

Ergo, with Pattern Analyzer, Execute Maneuver becomes
Resolve the following substeps in order:
a. move ship
c. cleanup

There's no "substep b." It has been removed and placed after Step 3. There's no "2b." There never was. There was Step 2 and substep b. Nowhere does the rule state that the step or substep designation is transitive. Nowhere does it state that such designations are nominal; they're ordinal descriptors. As with any ordinal descriptor, they're lost as soon as the order is changed. A lot of myopic inferencing that fails to recognize the entirety of the "Execute Maneuver" rule doesn't change that...

The important bit, again, is "Resolve the following substeps in order." Since substep b may have been removed from that list by Pattern Analyzer, it is no longer designated under "Resolve the following substeps in order." 

Pattern Analyzer writes an exception to "in order," but it also affects what "the following substeps" designates, since "check pilot stress" is now a post-Step-3 substep.

In other words, yes, of course Snap Wexley with Pattern Analyzer gets his boost after a Tallon Roll.

There's a reason FFG doesn't bother with this sort of thing.
 

While I and others agree with this (and this is how I will play it) there is no "proof" that this is correct and others will vehemently argue the other side.

So...

On 6/22/2017 at 4:51 PM, Bascaria said:

... Snip ... this question cannot be solved by anything other than developer fiat. You will not be able to find a solution.

 

[muribundi 406]

2 hours ago, AWingXWinger said:

There's a reason FFG doesn't bother with this sort of thing.

Except FFG bothered for thing way "clearer" then that. And even if this is a stupid or easy question, they still answer it. But they never answered a PA question for now. Not that we are aware of.

[iamzoner 17]

If you beat the dead horse long enough it WILL come back to life...