Jabba's Realm - Hostile Negotiations rule question (spoilers)

[player1478495 5]

Can the nexu retrieve a barrel token?  The nexu's "non-sentient" ability states that it cannot interact. However, in this mission an interact is not required to retrieve a spice barrel.  

[a1bert 4,115]

To perform a retrieve you need to perform an interact, so no.

Retrieve, RRG said:

Some missions allow figures to retrieve specific tokens. A figure adjacent to or in the same space as the token can perform an interact to retrieve the token. Place the token on the figure's base to mark that the figure is now carrying that token. The token now moves with the figure.

Note that the rule says nothing about actions. To perform a retrieve you need to perform an interact. The Interact action lets you perform an interact. (You can get to perform interacts from other abilities than the Interact action.)

The mission rule said:

A figure can spend 2 movement points to retrieve a spice barrel without using an action. A figure can carry only 1 spice barrel.

You only change the action cost to movement point cost. The figure still needs to perform interact to be able to retrieve a barrel. You don't need the Interact action, you can perform the interact by spending 2 movement points. Non-Sentient says you cannot interact. Thus a figure with Non-Sentient cannot retrieve.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by a1bert

[player1478495 5]

Ah...  I get it now.   Welp, I definitely inadvertently cheated on this mission.  I wish the mission briefing had been more clear about having to exchange two movement points for the interact action.

[Stompburger 685]

I disagree with a1bert's interpretation, though I'm not 100% confident in my interpretation either.

My interpretation would be that "retrieve" is separate from interact. "Interact" allows you to do lot of things: retrieving, opening doors, affecting terminals, moving figures, etc. depending on mission rules. Just as the default for opening doors is an interact, the default for retrieving tokens is an interact. But there are other ways to open doors, and there are other ways to retrieve tokens. I don't think the rules suggest that you are performing an interact when you spend two movement points to retrieve a token.

But, as I said, my interpretation could definitely be incorrect.

[a1bert 4,115]

So, do you think that Companions should be able to retrieve barrels? They cannot interact either.

If there were a companion that has an automatic dodge, it would be pretty great in Hostile Negotiations. No, wait, Cam Droid has an automatic dodge.

I'm pretty sure I have discussed this with Clipper (tech editor) or Paul/Todd, or seen a ruling somewhere that Non-Sentient cannot retrieve (unless Beast Tamed in skirmish). (Also, why would they not be able to retrieve when spending an action, but be able to retrieve when not spending an action?)

It seems I agree with my previous self.

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by a1bert

[Stompburger 685]

14 hours ago, a1bert said:

So, do you think that Companions should be able to retrieve barrels? They cannot interact either.

If there were a companion that has an automatic dodge, it would be pretty great in Hostile Negotiations. No, wait, Cam Droid has an automatic dodge. 

Yes, I do think companions would be able to retrieve tokens in this case. Murne's Cam droid would certainly be good for that, but I don't think it would ruin the mission. 

Quote

 (Also, why would they not be able to retrieve when spending an action, but be able to retrieve when not spending an action?)

They can't retrieve by spending an action because the action normally required to retrieve (interact) is an action they cannot do. If there were a figure that couldn't perform the Move action, that wouldn't prevent them from getting movement points by other means. What if there were a mission rule that allowed you (for some strange reason) to retrieve a token by Attacking? Would Non-sentient or companions be prevented from doing so in that case?

Quote

It seems I agree with my previous self.

That's usually a good thing 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Stompburger

[a1bert 4,115]

Non-Sentient does not say that it prevents the Interact action. If Non-Sentient said that, you would have an argument.

You cannot interact.

 

 

[Stompburger 685]

5 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Non-Sentient does not say that it prevents the Interact action. If Non-Sentient said that, you would have an argument.

Non-Sentient doesn't *only* prevent the Interact action, but it does prevent it. Performing an interact is possible the Interact action, just like performing an attack is possible using the Attack action.

The question is not whether or not Non-sentients can interact or Interact, because it's clear they can't do either. It's about whether or not "retrieve" is a form of "interact". Just because you can interact to retrieve doesn't necessarily mean that the only way to retrieve is by interacting (whether you interact or Interact).

I agree - if retrieving is always an interact (whether you spend an action to do it or not), then it's clear that anything that can't interact can't retrieve. But I don't see anything definite in the rules that says this is the case.

To rephrase the example I said earlier: you can gain movement points using the Move action. There are also other ways to gain movement points. There are also other ways to exit your space. If a figure says "you cannot gain movement points," then it can't Move or gain movement points any other way - but it can still exit its space if pushed. If a figure says "you cannot exit your space," then it can't exit its space through spending movement points or being pushed.

I feel like you're saying the equivalent of: "This figure says that it can't gain movement points. Therefore, it cannot exit its space."

[a1bert 4,115]

Because I can't seem to find the discussion that retrieve requires / includes an interact, you better send a rules query.

 

[Stompburger 685]

9 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Because I can't seem to find the discussion that retrieve requires / includes an interact, you better send a rules query.

 

I mean, if you've heard an official ruling that retrieve is a form of interact, then that settles it. But I can't determine that from the RAW. If you find it, let me know. I don't know how to send a rules query.

[Captain_Apathy 0]

We played this mission yesterday. While it never came about, I had internally ruled that the nexu would be able to pick it up, but I can see the argument against it.

The question we had about this mission is if a large figure carrying a barrel (Dewback Rider) took 3+ damage, who (or how do you) determines what square the barrel is dropped into?

[player1478495 5]

I just sent in a rules query.  I'll let you know when I get a response.

[Majushi 1,127]

7 hours ago, Captain_Apathy said:

We played this mission yesterday. While it never came about, I had internally ruled that the nexu would be able to pick it up, but I can see the argument against it.

The question we had about this mission is if a large figure carrying a barrel (Dewback Rider) took 3+ damage, who (or how do you) determines what square the barrel is dropped into?

RRG doesn't specify, but I would rule that the person controlling the large figure would determine which of its spaces the token is dropped in.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Majushi

[a1bert 4,115]

Yes, carried tokens are dropped into a space of the figure's controller's choice when a large figure is defeated.

("in its space" = a space the figure occupies)

 

[player1478495 5]

I finally received a reply to my rules query.  

From Todd Michlitsch, FFG Developer:

"Even though the 'retrieve' doesn't cost an action due to the mission rule, retrieval is still a type of interact.  Non-Sentient prevents the Nexu from being able to interact, which includes retrieving tokens."

a1bert's interpretation was correct.

[Stompburger 685]

That's helpful; now we have it stated explicitly that "retrieve" is just a sub-category of "interact". Good to know!

[a1bert 4,115]

Companions thus also cannot retrieve tokens.

 

[Masterchiefspiff 749]

@a1bert so on the new nal hutta swamps map scenario B - it's says a figure can spend two movement points to "claim" a crate and score two vps. And I didn't see anywhere that states "claim" is an actual interact in either the claim or interact topics in the rrg. Is this an instance where a nexu can do something and isn't limited by the non-sentient ability? 

I get that nexu without beast tamer can't retrieve in spoils of crime on jabba's palace or retrieve crates on line of fire or interact with patrons on gaining favor in the anchorhead cantina. But is this one different? 

[a1bert 4,115]

Non-Sentient does not prevent claiming tokens. Claim only means that you put the token in your play area. If you claim a token by spending two mp while adjacent to it, there is no retrieve (to carry a token), and thus no interact involved.

 

[Masterchiefspiff 749]

That's the interpretation I was coming up with but wanted to make sure I didn't miss something somewhere. Thanks!