Fixing Poe/Maz

[TimMurrayJR 58]

Yea this subject again. I am not here to yell and scream about how broken Poe/Maz is but rather to offer some balanced ideas about how to fix some of the larger issues with the deck. 

Planetary uprising- Well I think most of us can agree this card needs a fix and well I have one I think makes the card quite balanced.

Make it unique and make it read that you either use the cards ability or the battle fields ability but not both. I think this balances the card nicely and makes the user have to make a decision.

Poe- Make his special cost one resource to resolve and his 3 damage side free or make it vehicle dice only.

Maz- Make her ability her character/upgrade dice only or that players yellow dice only.

 

So those are my thoughts on this subject I think any of these keeps Poe/Maz as a top tier deck but makes it more skill based rather than auto pilot. 

 

On an aside I think something we all have to keep in mind is this is a young game and it is as all games do going to have its growing pains. Comparing it to the other major players in the CCG realm is a bit unfair as those games have had a very long time to work out their issues and in some cases said issues still exist.

 

[drunkensith 104]

I really don't see a problem with this deck. if you look at the top 4 decks in tournament reports this deck is less than 20%. the field actually looks quit diverse. Plus there are already some great counters for this deck.

[TylerTT 1,295]

1 hour ago, drunkensith said:

I really don't see a problem with this deck. if you look at the top 4 decks in tournament reports this deck is less than 20%. the field actually looks quit diverse. Plus there are already some great counters for this deck.

Keep in mind the limited availability of the cards to make Poe Maz deck. Perhaps only a small percent of players even have the cards to make that deck.

[JediGeekGirl 188]

There are worse things in the format then Poe/Maz.

[Stone37 3,353]

Sorry, but this has been done to death.  I have yet to run into a group of cards or characters that I just couldn't beat.  Great deck combos... yeah!  But this is why we talk about decks in tiers.  A top tier deck in the hands of a great player is always going to be hard to beat. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Stone37

[wiley15 0]

Sorry, less than 20% of top 4's ?  What report are you looking at?  The one's I've seen (e.g. Chance Cube) have it at 40% of the top 4's.  

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

I think the reference is to this, which I posted a few "fix Poe/Maz" threads ago:

(Quote) 

It's a problem, but it's not ruining the meta or completely broken. Check out the Chance Cube's recent numbers on the meta:

http://www.thechancecube.com/2017/05/29/meta-tracker-report-week-ending-52717/

more telling perhaps are the tournament results, but even there, Poe/Maz wins less than half the time. It's really good, but it doesn't just insta-win:

http://www.thechancecube.com/meta/2017-store-championships-meta-report/

(end quote)

The results differ greatly between competitive championships and less competitive tournaments, where people seem to avoid running it, because they don't like the hate it instills. If it were auto-win, the percent in the "win" pie would be four times the percent in the "top four" pie, which isn't the case, but it does seem that a well-built Poe/Maz wins with alarming frequency. There's also a lot of poor Poe/Maz builds - there's still some skill involved in building it. I do agree that it's the most powerful thing in the game, but I don't think I (or anyone) has the data to say whether it's overpowered and deserving of nerf(s). 

That all being said, 

2 hours ago, Stone37 said:

Sorry, but this has been done to death.  I have yet to run into a group of cards or characters that I just couldn't beat.  Great deck combos... yeah!  But this is why we talk about decks in tiers.  A top tier deck in the hands of a great player is always going to be hard to beat. 

This. ^

We're all sick of hearing about this. And who doesn't like Batman? Plus I think it would be weird if I could put any deck together that I thought was fun and it magically beat a tier-1 deck.

Don't let this become a nerf forum.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Kieransi

[sionnach19 121]

I'm less concerned about the innate power level of Poe/Maz, since it clearly is beatable. I'm more concerned about the health of the overall competitive meta, especially when it comes to deck diversity. The other "top tier" decks right now seem to be a response to Poe/Maz (in som way) — Palp and Anakin/Kylo both have specific advantages in the matchup against Poe which they leverage. 3+ character decks have been largely forced out of the meta by the threat of Poe's Thermal Detonators/U-Wings. Other Hero decks are sorely underrepresented in competitive placements in SoR, beyond a few scattered monoblue lists (I feel that some folks who clamor for Poe/Maz to be nerfed often miss that without Poe/Maz, there would barely be any Hero decks in the meta at all).

I'm not sure quite how to untangle this knot, and we'll likely be stuck for a few months waiting for the next release. The overall meta for SoR seems to have settled quicker than Awakenings, and the deck variety also seems to be much lower. Heroes desperately need more options for powerful cards, and certain playstyles could use some love (3+ character decks, support oriented decks, slow decks, mill, etc.).

Basically, I don't think Poe/Maz needs a nerf because it's too good or unbeatable. But I am worried that it's distorting the competitive scene and limiting deck variety, and I wonder if there are changes to be made which can make space for other decks to shine. Is there a way for it to be a good deck, but not one which unduly punishes 3+ character decks or monopolizes all competitive Hero deck options?

[Abyss 376]

I'd support these changes, only if they retroactively go back in time and nerf Jango/Veers, the other broken bestest, super amazing broken deck that beat everything.

Oh wait.

It's too soon to look at nerfing/changing the cards. If Poe/Maz is still 'broken' once the next set hits, then maybe I can see them doing something about it.

[Alphastealer 42]

I would like to see more defence cards in the next set that limit the damage dealt to characters per round, to help slow the game down. Things like a Gungan Mule Shield Generator: No character can be dealt more than 2 damage per dice or card effect for this round. 

[Stone37 3,353]

3 hours ago, Alphastealer said:

I would like to see more defence cards in the next set that limit the damage dealt to characters per round, to help slow the game down. Things like a Gungan Mule Shield Generator: No character can be dealt more than 2 damage per dice or card effect for this round. 

Dear God no!  This is suppose to be a card game that can easily be played inside of 20 minutes.  If anything, the game needs to speed up!  Best of 3 matches is the true test of a deck and player.  Right now, a 20 or 30 minute round could only fairly fit a single game.

[KrisWall 966]

1 hour ago, Stone37 said:

Dear God no!  This is suppose to be a card game that can easily be played inside of 20 minutes.  If anything, the game needs to speed up!  Best of 3 matches is the true test of a deck and player.  Right now, a 20 or 30 minute round could only fairly fit a single game.

Tournament rounds aren't being played as best of 3.  They're being played as single games, from what I can see.

[Stone37 3,353]

13 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Tournament rounds aren't being played as best of 3.  They're being played as single games, from what I can see.

You are correct.  I'm suggesting the game needs to speed up to allow for the possibility of best of 3 format.

[KrisWall 966]

20 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

You are correct.  I'm suggesting the game needs to speed up to allow for the possibility of best of 3 format.

I'm not sure I'd want to play a game that is consistently over by turn 2 or 3.  That seems to be what you're recommending.  That's not a game of skill.  It's a game of combo deck building and then luck of the draw/dice roll.  Speeding up the game with faster cards really just encourages aggro and locks out any deck that can't kill 2-3 characters with damage in 2-3 rounds.  It renders unnecessary pretty much ALL mid to late game cards and strategies.

[ozmodon 535]

17 hours ago, JediGeekGirl said:

There are worse things in the format then Poe/Maz.

Like what?

[RJM 129]

11 hours ago, sionnach19 said:

I'm less concerned about the innate power level of Poe/Maz, since it clearly is beatable. I'm more concerned about the health of the overall competitive meta, especially when it comes to deck diversity. The other "top tier" decks right now seem to be a response to Poe/Maz (in som way) — Palp and Anakin/Kylo both have specific advantages in the matchup against Poe which they leverage. 3+ character decks have been largely forced out of the meta by the threat of Poe's Thermal Detonators/U-Wings. Other Hero decks are sorely underrepresented in competitive placements in SoR, beyond a few scattered monoblue lists (I feel that some folks who clamor for Poe/Maz to be nerfed often miss that without Poe/Maz, there would barely be any Hero decks in the meta at all).

I'm not sure quite how to untangle this knot, and we'll likely be stuck for a few months waiting for the next release. The overall meta for SoR seems to have settled quicker than Awakenings, and the deck variety also seems to be much lower. Heroes desperately need more options for powerful cards, and certain playstyles could use some love (3+ character decks, support oriented decks, slow decks, mill, etc.).

Basically, I don't think Poe/Maz needs a nerf because it's too good or unbeatable. But I am worried that it's distorting the competitive scene and limiting deck variety, and I wonder if there are changes to be made which can make space for other decks to shine. Is there a way for it to be a good deck, but not one which unduly punishes 3+ character decks or monopolizes all competitive Hero deck options?

This is well said, and in my opinion the actual issue at hand.

[Stone37 3,353]

7 hours ago, KrisWall said:

I'm not sure I'd want to play a game that is consistently over by turn 2 or 3.  That seems to be what you're recommending.  That's not a game of skill.  It's a game of combo deck building and then luck of the draw/dice roll.  Speeding up the game with faster cards really just encourages aggro and locks out any deck that can't kill 2-3 characters with damage in 2-3 rounds.  It renders unnecessary pretty much ALL mid to late game cards and strategies.

Only playing one game against an opponent is also more deckbuilding and luck than it is skill.  And yes, I do think this game should be over within 3 or 4 rounds.  Any cards that need 5 rounds to win are too slow for a advertised 20 minute game. 

[ozmodon 535]

I think it's  funny how before the new set dropped  Force Speed was the Reaper. Now it's Poe, Maz. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they just leave it knowing that the next set will blow this combo out of the water.

[Darth Landy 296]

11 hours ago, ozmodon said:

Like what?

Like Ammo Belt/Second Chance for one.  Or Rey = 4-5 actions because of Ambush abuse.

Poe is not the problem, anyhow.  The real problem is the action-cheating in the game.  Without things like Fast Hands, Maz, or Rey, nobody would be complaining about Poe.  That said, it still isn't an archetype that needs to be nerfed, at least not yet.  The SC thread shows that Poe/Maz isn't winning them all, not by a long shot.  And I think something drastic like making Poe vehicle-only would really just make him kind of useless since Baze would just be better.

[ozmodon 535]

I play against Han, Rey a lot and can take down second chance on Han pretty often. I would say somewhere in the 80% range.  I think if Poe's special costed 1 to use, it would be fixed outright without changing  the flavor of it. I also think ammo belt should be weapon and equipment only. There is a good chance that these changes will happen, but who knows at this point.

[Alphastealer 42]

Ammo belt should be weapon only...hence ammo.

 

[Amanal 2,557]

Yeah and Upgrades should be limited to 2, two hands. :-)

[Krazed 12]

14 hours ago, Darth Landy said:

Like Ammo Belt/Second Chance for one.  Or Rey = 4-5 actions because of Ambush abuse.

Poe is not the problem, anyhow.  The real problem is the action-cheating in the game.  Without things like Fast Hands, Maz, or Rey, nobody would be complaining about Poe.  That said, it still isn't an archetype that needs to be nerfed, at least not yet.  The SC thread shows that Poe/Maz isn't winning them all, not by a long shot.  And I think something drastic like making Poe vehicle-only would really just make him kind of useless since Baze would just be better.

 

I don't think making Poe vehicle only would really hurt him.  The only thing that'd really hurt would be losing Thermals, but I don't particularly mind that.  I think the threat of Thermal makes any 3/4 character decks untenable at this point, and I don't like that. 

 

Not being able to throw DL-44s, Cunning and Rocket Launcher would hurt, sure, but I don't think it'd break the deck.  I would continue to play Cunning and DL-44 in my Poe/Maz because they're such a threat on Maz.  And even now I don't play Rocket Launcher.  Thermals would be swapped out for Black One, so you would lose the AoE but keep the damage.

 

Honestly I think changing Poe to vehicle would be the best thing for the deck.  It would still be viable and would open the field to 3/4 character decks that can't currently take the 9-12 damage a single card can push.  Plus it would make further development easier because you don't have to balance every card around Poe.

[Darth Landy 296]

2 hours ago, Krazed said:

 

I don't think making Poe vehicle only would really hurt him.  The only thing that'd really hurt would be losing Thermals, but I don't particularly mind that.  I think the threat of Thermal makes any 3/4 character decks untenable at this point, and I don't like that. 

 

Not being able to throw DL-44s, Cunning and Rocket Launcher would hurt, sure, but I don't think it'd break the deck.  I would continue to play Cunning and DL-44 in my Poe/Maz because they're such a threat on Maz.  And even now I don't play Rocket Launcher.  Thermals would be swapped out for Black One, so you would lose the AoE but keep the damage.

 

Honestly I think changing Poe to vehicle would be the best thing for the deck.  It would still be viable and would open the field to 3/4 character decks that can't currently take the 9-12 damage a single card can push.  Plus it would make further development easier because you don't have to balance every card around Poe.

I'm still not so sure about that.  Vehicle-only basically means he only would be useful with the Falcon, U-Wing, and Black One (currently).  Personally I think just taking Baze would be better at that point because instead of those really expensive cards that you'll likely never get out clogging up your hand (and being potential Kylo backlash damage as well), you could take cheaper stuff to make Baze a finely-tuned, well-oiled machine.

Changing Poe is just a band-aid fix that would neuter Poe/Maz in the interim but doesn't really do anything to rein in the action-cheating abuse that we have currently or could see becoming an even bigger problem in the future.

I'm not saying errata is bad, not at all.  But I also don't think it should be handed out willy-nilly either.  If something is locking up the game, like hyperloop was, then something should be done about it.  That said, there was plenty of chatter pre-SoR about Jango Fett being overpowered and needing some kind of errata to adjust his cost.  While he's definitely a tier-1 character and is very strong, he wasn't winning every game and didn't even come out on top at Worlds.  From the looks of things in the SC threads, Poe isn't winning them all as well.  So I think more information really needs to be gathered before any steps are taken because errata should only be done when it's absolutely necessary.

[Krazed 12]

3 minutes ago, Darth Landy said:

Vehicle-only basically means he only would be useful with the Falcon, U-Wing, and Black One (currently).

That's 20 damage, not including any 2/3 R you get in with him.  If you can't pull off a win with throwing 20 damage, you're probably in trouble anyway.

 

But I do agree with your argument as a whole.  I don't think Poe needs an errata right now. My issue is more with sets coming up and him getting even stronger because of it.  I just think it's a development issue that literally every red/yellow/neutral card that hero has access to you have to stop and think 'How bad is this with Poe?'.  Going forward I would like to see him vehicle only, but I don't think it breaks the meta right now.  The variety of decks winning SCs is proof of that.