The "Europeans" what comes around goes around.

[xerpo 177]

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Check the distance and you will see you are wrong.

at means distance 1+ the squadron base really. Engaging in fact at distance 1+squadron base+1... ~18.8 cm vs ~18.5 cm (medium range)

It is a tiny difference of course but it is favourable to GH not Rhymer.

No, you are wrong.

Squadron base is 3cm long. Distance 1 is 7,7cm long. That makes the total distance within gallant heaven 10,7cm, assuming that you can fit that squadron into 1mm margin of error (ask your opponent first just in case) this makes the total distance within GH 10,6cm.

Medium range is 18,8. Assuming the same for Rhymmer he would hit GH at 18,7. The difference is 18,7-10,6 wich is 8,1cm, 4 mm away from engagement and pushing your squadrons to the limit.

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[ovinomanc3r 4,436]

6 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Squadron base is 3cm long. 

No it doesn't. 

I checked. 

And without checking I could say that as Americans use inches I cannot imagine a round distance in inches being a round distance in cm. 

[xerpo 177]

 

Check again and do the maths properly.

 

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It is a tiny difference of course but it is favourable to GH not Rhymer.

 

What is this supposed to mean?, How can be favourable to anyone a neutral measurement of distance? There is engagement or there is not, end of story. Lol you are serious about the inches? Do you want the inches measurement too?
It's getting smelly around here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[Drasnighta 26,831]

4 minutes ago, xerpo said:

 

Check again and do the maths properly.

What is this supposed to mean?, How can be favourable to anyone a neutral measurement of distance? There is engagement or there is not, end of story.
It's getting smelly around here.

 

I'll be honest, I don't "do the math" because, basically - I can't do the math on the Table in Real-Time.  And even if I do, we're talking about milimeters here.

The whole point of measuring is imeasuring, so I measure.

What I can't tell, is who is in range or not...  Because its **** close to me.

 

As by this:

 

The Pelta is of course our surrogate Gallant Haven.

The VCX has been placed just ever-so slightly in Gallant Haven Range (less than 1mm)

The TIE fighters are at maximum Rhymer bombing range.

 

And I can't tell if they would be engaged or not....

 

So basically, Right?  Wrong?  I don't know.

What it isn't, to me, is clear.

 

 

 

 

[BrobaFett 4,209]

11 hours ago, xerpo said:

2. If there was a truly skilled Rhymmer player at worlds Rieekan would have blown all over the place. So, assuming your statement is correct, then matching DID actually mattered, as it did for europeans. And that "skilled Rhymmer player" never saw Rieekan aces winner.

 

 

First off, Xerpo, I just want to let you know I have so far found you to be one of the most incessantly abrasive people I have encountered on these boards, which for the internet is saying something.

Additionally, since you are going to loop all the back around to this ridiculous claim, I will go ahead and say that I consider myself a skilled Rhymer player. I was at Worlds, and I won 5 of my 6 games, finishing 15th. The one game I lost was against an equally skilled Rieekan player (finished 12th at Worlds). Therefore I refute your claim, and kindly ask you to stop being such a huge wang to everyone.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I'll be honest, I don't "do the math" because, basically - I can't do the math on the Table in Real-Time.  And even if I do, we're talking about milimeters here.

The whole point of measuring is imeasuring, so I measure.

What I can't tell, is who is in range or not...  Because its **** close to me.

 

As by this:

 

The Pelta is of course our surrogate Gallant Haven.

The VCX has been placed just ever-so slightly in Gallant Haven Range (less than 1mm)

The TIE fighters are at maximum Rhymer bombing range.

 

And I can't tell if they would be engaged or not....

 

So basically, Right?  Wrong?  I don't know.

What it isn't, to me, is clear.

If I may add my own points to this, the best Rieekan Aceholes player I know in Atlanta regularly leaves Gallant Haven range if you give him a good reason. A Rhymerball, whether TIE Fighters, Bombers, Defenders, Firesprays, or whatever else, is a good reason. Blink twice and you'll miss Ten and Wedge taking your fighters to town with damage everywhere. Could an outstanding Rhymer player beat him with the right list? Probably. But he'll have to work for it.

@BrobaFett, is this your mic rolling around here under the table? That's not good for the sensors, they don't like being dropped.

[xerpo 177]

16 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

First off, Xerpo, I just want to let you know I have so far found you to be one of the most incessantly abrasive people I have encountered on these boards, which for the internet is saying something.

Additionally, since you are going to loop all the back around to this ridiculous claim, I will go ahead and say that I consider myself a skilled Rhymer player. I was at Worlds, and I won 5 of my 6 games, finishing 15th. The one game I lost was against an equally skilled Rieekan player (finished 12th at Worlds). Therefore I refute your claim, and kindly ask you to stop being such a huge wang to everyone.

Since you are the only one attacking me in this thread I'll take it personal.

Im giving my opinion here, as everyone else, no one oblies you to read any of my comments. I dont mean to troll, as others do. I dont personally attack anyone. I talk about the game as a whole and facts about the game. Im not making any claim so there is no claim to consider ridiculous. Im stating something that you probably didnt even read, as long as giving good advices about rhymer uses.

Now in a personal way, I dont know you, I give a **** about you and what you may think of me.

A forum is for debate. Im debating. What are you doing?

[xerpo 177]

27 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I'll be honest, I don't "do the math" because, basically - I can't do the math on the Table in Real-Time.  And even if I do, we're talking about milimeters here.

The whole point of measuring is imeasuring, so I measure.

What I can't tell, is who is in range or not...  Because its **** close to me.

 

As by this:

 

The Pelta is of course our surrogate Gallant Haven.

The VCX has been placed just ever-so slightly in Gallant Haven Range (less than 1mm)

The TIE fighters are at maximum Rhymer bombing range.

 

And I can't tell if they would be engaged or not....

 

So basically, Right?  Wrong?  I don't know.

What it isn't, to me, is clear.

 

 

 

 

For some reason I cant upload the pictures and my limited knowledge on PC's wont fix it. Then I'll just ask you to trust me, I did the maths, I have the evidences laser measured. And the distance is clear to see on a single sight if youre a veteran Armada player used to the distances.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

13 minutes ago, xerpo said:

For some reason I cant upload the pictures and my limited knowledge on PC's wont fix it. Then I'll just ask you to trust me, I did the maths, I have the evidences laser measured. And the distance is clear to see on a single sight if youre a veteran Armada player used to the distances.

I don't have to trust you at all.  Nowhere I do have to trust you, I just have to respect you (which I do - even with the veiled insult ).

Even if you have the Evidence, what I am asking you is:

How do you apply it, in a game, given that we are talking milimeters of distance here?

Where a single move, a single tap of the table, changes everything.

Not to mention that every measure tool is different, as evidenced by numerous threads.

 

I mean, sure - you can be technically correct...  But of all people, I know (Because, y'know, all that time I spend in the Rules Sub-Forum )that absolute pedantry and technical correctness, although it is a goal, is often impossible to apply in a real game... 

 

Being within Gallant Haven Range is a big whack of distance, since it is an "At", and that means "any part of you at".

A Squadron with attack range powered by Major Rhymer is an even bigger whack of range.

But on a table, with anything short of a micrometer, there is so much parallex error that millimeters of distance are impossible to argue against on the table.

Now, on a Forum, outside of a game, where we can bring these sorts of things - indeed.....   That's what we're doing.

But I don't see how to apply it in a game, other than stating:  "I can place my fighter here, at the maximum range, and that keeps me out of range of you by 0.2mm".

And my response is, "Sure, you can say that.  but you have to pick up and place down your squadron, as per the rules and the FAQ, and if you happen to be closer, or further, you cannot adjust it."

 

I just know that with my best visual measurements (and I am a veteran player, who is not only good at distances, USED A GRIDDED MAT TO ASSIST MY MEASURING FOR THE PICTURE ABOVE - see what I said earlier about the Veiled Insult?  Thanks for that...), still couldn't easily tell weather engagement occurs at those maximums.

I know if the Rhymer player is a millimeter careless, then they'll be Engaged.

I know if the Gallant player is a millimeter cautious, then they won't force an engagement at Rhymers Maximum Possible Range.

 

...

And that, of course, applies generally to a single squadron.  Any other squadron who wishes to fire as well, is going to have its own issues.

 

 

Please, refute my photographic proof.

I want to know how its easy to know.  I really, really, really do...  Because I'm a Judge.  I run a TON of tournaments, and anything I can do to make this EASY, well...  I'd really like to know, for my own sanity, and for my Player's judgement calls in the future.

 

 

...  Or did I measure something wrong while setting up my Picture?

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Drasnighta

[xerpo 177]

27 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

How do you apply it, in a game, given that we are talking milimeters of distance here?

You apply it following the rules of measurement. 4mm is almost half a cm wich is easy to see.

27 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

(and I am a veteran player, who is not only good at distances, USED A GRIDDED MAT TO ASSIST MY MEASURING FOR THE PICTURE ABOVE - see what I said earlier about the Veiled Insult?  Thanks for that...)

It was not a veiled insult at all, at least that not was my intention, maybe is because english is not my native language and I have to struggle all the time with idioms and stuff, idk, sorry if you took it that way.

 

27 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Please, refute my photographic proof.

So this is the basic measurement:

to the limit. Now I just moved upwards the squadron rule to seek the engagement:

And here is the evidence:

As you can see the laser is even above the number 1 distance because of my hand shaking while taking the pic. So the distance to engagement is actually a bit larger.

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[BrobaFett 4,209]

34 minutes ago, xerpo said:

A forum is for debate. Im debating. What are you doing?

I am providing evidence to directly refute all the "debating" you are doing. However, as in every single case thus far where you have been provided with evidence to disprove some inane thing you are saying, you are choosing to ignore it and just aimlessly thrash around making the front page of the forums a generally miserable place.

Also, my comments were in regard to exactly how you are doing that debating, which is extremely derogatory to anyone and everyone else who disagrees with you without cause.

That said, I plan to go back to simply ignoring you. Heard that is the best way to deal with this situation.

[xerpo 177]

2 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I am providing evidence to directly refute all the "debating" you are doing. However, as in every single case thus far where you have been provided with evidence to disprove some inane thing you are saying, you are choosing to ignore it and just aimlessly thrash around making the front page of the forums a generally miserable place.

Also, my comments were in regard to exactly how you are doing that debating, which is extremely derogatory to anyone and everyone else who disagrees with you without cause.

That said, I plan to go back to simply ignoring you. Heard that is the best way to deal with this situation.

Ok thanks for your helpful contribution to the thread, your opinion was outmost valuable.

[Daht 481]

6 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You apply it following the rules of measurement. 4mm is almost half a cm wich is easy to see.

It was not a veiled insult at all, at least that not was my intention, maybe is because english is not my native language and I have to struggle all the time with idioms and stuff, idk, sorry if you took it that way.

 

So this is the basic measurement:

to the limit. Now I just moved upwards the squadron rule to seek the engagement:

And here is the evidence:

As you can see the laser is even above the number 1 distance because of my hand shaking while taking the pic. So the distance to engagement is actually a bit larger.

But is rhymer cardboard to cardboard with the ship?   Plastic isn't enough for shooting (although it IS for GH range.. go go silly armada rules!)

 

[xerpo 177]

Just now, Daht said:

But is rhymer cardboard to cardboard with the ship?   Plastic isn't enough for shooting (although it IS for GH range.. go go silly armada rules!)

 

I followed every step of the rulebook at every step and pushing the rules to the limit.

[Daht 481]

1 minute ago, xerpo said:

I followed every step of the rulebook at every step and pushing the rules to the limit.

So we still don't know, you need to move the range tool to cardboard to cardboard with the rhymer shot, right now it has a little room, but is not measuring a legal shot, it still has to clear the plastic.. at best you are going to have a small fraction of the couple millimeters you have with the illegal shot.   Which brings us back to it's very hard to get that shot on a real table, especially if you want to do it with enough bombers to scare an AF.  2 or 3 at the most aren't going to do more than dent it's shields without help.

 

[xerpo 177]

32 minutes ago, Daht said:

So we still don't know, you need to move the range tool to cardboard to cardboard with the rhymer shot, right now it has a little room, but is not measuring a legal shot, it still has to clear the plastic.. at best you are going to have a small fraction of the couple millimeters you have with the illegal shot.   Which brings us back to it's very hard to get that shot on a real table, especially if you want to do it with enough bombers to scare an AF.  2 or 3 at the most aren't going to do more than dent it's shields without help.

 

At least now you know now that if you put Rhymer in the limit of distance he cannot be reached, as for any squadron at distance 1 of him and max distance to the GH, a total of +4 on the sides. The ones behind could not reach it.

Rhymer is on a legal shot position, on the limit, as the other squadron is on the limit legal position of GH, Im not arguing that with you.

Yes it is very hard to get that shot, thats why I relate to skilled Rhymer players, anyway, if @ovinomanc3r would't mistaked that argument we will not be even having this conversation as everyone before that was taking for granted that Rhymer could not be reached. As I just proved.

GH users tend to fly the squadrons tight close to it and following the own GH movement. Not in the edges. Getting fussy can work both ways.
 

Edited June 6, 2017 by xerpo

[xerpo 177]

32 minutes ago, Daht said:

So we still don't know, you need to move the range tool to cardboard to cardboard

You just need to open your eyes. The rule goes a bit under the ship to cover the plastic part of the ship. I couldnt put it on top because of the blending and positiong would not be accurate.

Edited June 6, 2017 by xerpo

[Daht 481]

16 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You just need to open your eyes.

you need to learn the basic rules.  You are not demonstrating a legal shot.  Your rhymer cannot shoot the GH in that picture, it is out of range.  

This can help you out:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/ae/7c/ae7c3224-9ed0-4d72-b5dd-b95f51e9d68c/swm01_armada_learn_to_play.pdf

[xerpo 177]

6 minutes ago, Daht said:

you need to learn the basic rules.  You are not demonstrating a legal shot.  Your rhymer cannot shoot the GH in that picture, it is out of range.  

This can help you out:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/ae/7c/ae7c3224-9ed0-4d72-b5dd-b95f51e9d68c/swm01_armada_learn_to_play.pdf

I see what you mean now, just edited for your understanding.

24 minutes ago, xerpo said:

The rule goes a bit under the ship to cover the plastic part of the ship. I couldnt put it on top because of the blending and positiong would not be accurate.

 

Anyway guys, this is a thing you can do at home and see by yourselves if you do care about this at all and have trust issues.

Edited June 6, 2017 by xerpo

[Jimble 165]

For the ranges you're discussing, are using US or European lengths? We use the metric system. 

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/235232-european-championships-awesome/?page=20#comment-2822377

European Rhymer beats US Gallant Haven from these measurements.

oops.

 

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

man really. These arguments? 

[Blail Blerg 7,585]

So, did we get some sort of consensus on this Yavaris vs the dreaded rhymming poet yet? 

[pyqz 200]

I'm sort of confused about how Rhymer's purported ability to bomb Gallant Haven while avoiding squadrons in Gallant Haven's bubble makes him a hard counter to Rieekan. Even if you're kitted out with an ISD super carrier, that's at most a 6 squad alpha strike. 6 squad attacks don't instantly kill an Assault Frigate, and once they're committed the Rhymer ball is obviously open to retaliation. After that it's hard to predict how it's going to turn out - every game is going to be different. And sure, a 6 squad Rhymer alpha can conceivably take out Yavaris, but if the Rebel player is leaving themselves vulnerable to that then I think it's fair to say that they've screwed up. Rhymer is definitely strong, but nothing that's been proposed here makes it look like the silver bullet that it's being made out to be.

[xerpo 177]

3 hours ago, pyqz said:

I'm sort of confused about how Rhymer's purported ability to bomb Gallant Haven while avoiding squadrons in Gallant Haven's bubble makes him a hard counter to Rieekan. Even if you're kitted out with an ISD super carrier, that's at most a 6 squad alpha strike. 6 squad attacks don't instantly kill an Assault Frigate, and once they're committed the Rhymer ball is obviously open to retaliation. After that it's hard to predict how it's going to turn out - every game is going to be different. And sure, a 6 squad Rhymer alpha can conceivably take out Yavaris, but if the Rebel player is leaving themselves vulnerable to that then I think it's fair to say that they've screwed up. Rhymer is definitely strong, but nothing that's been proposed here makes it look like the silver bullet that it's being made out to be.

Have you seen any other propossal, "not crys", about countering Rieekan aces? Maybe you should give it a try on the table first.

 

For those who love tounament metas but dont like maths, I remember you that Rhymmer won the Europeans, the East worlds, if you preffer. And a Rhymmer list reliably worked against a Rieekan aces list during the curse of the tournament.

[pyqz 200]

My proposal is to find a strong list that suits you and play the **** out of it. Pretty sure that's the best way to win in any war game. 

"Give it a try" isn't a very convincing argument. You've been very, hmm, aggressive about your opinion that Rhymer blows away Rieekan but I'm not seeing how. If a good Rhymer player auto wins against Rieekan, I would like to know why. That seems like something important to know