The "Europeans" what comes around goes around.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

For the historically inclined, I have posted my Mahanian Diatribe in the Off-Topic Forum. Join me there as we wander through history, pulling on threads and wondering how on Earth we ended up where we are today. But mostly naval stuff, mostly.

[xerpo 177]

11 hours ago, PT106 said:

I see at least two questionable assumptions in this statement:

1. Rhymerball is a not direct counter to a GH/Yavaris build. I would expect Rhymer player to lose more often than win given the equal player skill.

2. At worlds there were Rhymerballs and some of them were flown by skilled players.

1. Well if you can't see how rhymmer is a direct counter of GH Ill make it clear for you, sorry for assuming that you would know.

GH works when you keep your fighters at distance 1 of it, preventing a potential alpha strike. If you care to measure, Rhymmer and his balls, gives a **** about this since he can tare apart your GH from medium range away from your safe distance 1 screen. SO if you want to prevent rhymmer from further free strikes on your ships you will have to move your speed 3-2 riekan aces list without intel to swarm with rhymmer, again, if you care to measure away from GH safety. So a rhymmer ball properly used is completely denying your 8pt GH all along.

As for Yavaris, I have seen with my own eyes a rhymmer ball killing a NeB in turn 2 from an alpha strike (6 activations ISD+EHB) on its side hull. Nothing a slow screen of speed 3-2 aces without intel can dream to prevent.

 

2. If there was a truly skilled Rhymmer player at worlds Rieekan would have blown all over the place. So, assuming your statement is correct, then matching DID actually mattered, as it did for europeans. And that "skilled Rhymmer player" never saw Rieekan aces winner.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[Ginkapo 9,320]

@xerpo how does killing Yavaris help against Rieekan? 

Rhymer is an alpha strike unit, as you say above, as is Demolisher.

Rieekan specifically is robust against alpha strike as his ability means you can ignore them for the most part. 

[PT106 2,316]

2 hours ago, xerpo said:

1. Well if you can't see how rhymmer is a direct counter of GH Ill make it clear for you, sorry for assuming that you would know.

GH works when you keep your fighters at distance 1 of it, preventing a potential alpha strike. If you care to measure, Rhymmer and his balls, gives a **** about this since he can tare apart your GH from medium range away from your safe distance 1 screen. SO if you want to prevent rhymmer from further free strikes on your ships you will have to move your speed 3-2 riekan aces list without intel to swarm with rhymmer, again, if you care to measure away from GH safety. So a rhymmer ball properly used is completely denying your 8pt GH all along.

As for Yavaris, I have seen with my own eyes a rhymmer ball killing a NeB in turn 2 from an alpha strike (6 activations ISD+EHB) on its side hull. Nothing a slow screen of speed 3-2 aces without intel can dream to prevent.

 

2. If there was a truly skilled Rhymmer player at worlds Rieekan would have blown all over the place. So, assuming your statement is correct, then matching DID actually mattered, as it did for europeans. And that "skilled Rhymmer player" never saw Rieekan aces winner.

 

There are Rhymerballs and there are Rhymerballs. I understand the idea, however I believe that you're misunderstanding GH play as it all depends on a squad composition of the opponent fleet. If Rhymerball is bomber-heavy, then it'll lose squadron battle even if gallant heaven doesnt provide protection.  If it tries to intel and bomb, it'll lose intel ships fast and will be locked in place with no path forward before dealing a crippling blow. If it is fighter bomber mix then its split in what its doing and is likely to lose on both fronts. So, what is the squad composition you had in mind for a rhymerball that is a direct counter?

As far as losing Yavaris turn 2 to a rhymer strike to a side arc, this sounds like a serious misplay on Yavaris player side. Why was Yavaris in position to be attacked? (With no obstruction/transport protecting those sides?)

 

 

[xerpo 177]

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

@xerpo how does killing Yavaris help against Rieekan? 

Rhymer is an alpha strike unit, as you say above, as is Demolisher.

Rieekan specifically is robust against alpha strike as his ability means you can ignore them for the most part. 

You ignore it for a turn! Rieekan dose not make your ships immortal the rest of the game... if you lose Yavaris at turn 2 before your fighters are not even close to deliver the big immortal double punch with that speed 3-2 I think thats a win-win. Moreso when you are trying to keep them safe under GH.

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[xerpo 177]

56 minutes ago, PT106 said:

If it is fighter bomber mix then its split in what its doing and is likely to lose on both fronts. So, what is the squad composition you had in mind for a rhymerball that is a direct counter?

And here is where we really squeeze THE Rhymmer and we can se how utterly broken he is.

He works with every fighter (in my opinion it should read that he provides his skill only to bombers, as they fixed it with Norra, wich is more expensive and more difficult to trigger but thats another discussion) so you can mass with reliable tie advanced to drop a black to a ship at medium range, 75% damage, to the side of Yavaris thats HUGE and you are protecting with escort your intel and Rhymmer himself. The composition is SO cheap that you can afford to add some extra bombers to the swarm.

If you want to go extra fighter all you need is Rhymmer, 1 escort, intel, and.... defenders!, 75 chance damage, repeat with BCC and possible crits. And if the enemy finally gets to you... oh say hello to this swarm of 2blue 2 blacks.

Rhymmer is SO good that he even combo with a natural anti-squadron swarm, add to the mix the classic howlrunner and friends, go full anti-squadron and then a little drop of Rhymmer. Now strat dropping 50% chance damage to a ship at medium range. Make them leave GH, swarm with you, completely forget about his main role: double bomb your ships, and get in a nonsense dog fight with mithel, howlrunner, soontir, rudor, Dengar extra counters and interceptors involved.

Sure you can ignore the one above, take the chances and go for the ships while your whale or Yavaris suffers those 50% dmg. So then we have the Decimator ball wich involves just a couple of decimators and dengar and oh man, thats not something you want to ignore on your ships at medium range.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[PT106 2,316]

28 minutes ago, xerpo said:

you can mass with reliable tie advanced to drop a black to a ship at medium range, 75% damage, to the side of Yavaris thats HUGE and you are protecting with escort your intel and Rhymmer himself.

Looks like you never played Rhymerball against good Rieekan Yavaris strategic build. I repeat myself: how are you going to attack Yavaris side if it is either behind Gallant Haven or is protected by transport and therefore you don't have line of sight and therefore don't have a shot?

I'm still not sure what kind of Rhymerball you're proposing. Go full Imperial aces with Rhymer and rely on blue bombing dice? Some mix? Can you provide the example squad composition as it's easy to talk about that counter or this counter until you need to fit it into 134 (or 400) points. Keep in mind that Rieekan player is playing second and is either getting points every round or can win by killing your ISD and getting double points from it.

[xerpo 177]

42 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Looks like you never played Rhymerball against good Rieekan Yavaris strategic build. I repeat myself: how are you going to attack Yavaris side if it is either behind Gallant Haven or is protected by transport and therefore you don't have line of sight and therefore don't have a shot?

I've been very well outplayed with Rhymmer several times during my 2 years in armada to know him fairly well. If you dont have a sight on Yavaris or she is either moving on the other side of the table activating through relay then you attack Gallant Heaven! In any case you always have the initiative of the alpha and making GH useless by forcing his fighters out to engage you and denying their primary objective, wich is your ships.

 

 

42 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I'm still not sure what kind of Rhymerball you're proposing. Go full Imperial aces with Rhymer and rely on blue bombing dice? Some mix? Can you provide the example squad composition as it's easy to talk about that counter or this counter until you need to fit it into 134 (or 400) points. Keep in mind that Rieekan player is playing second and is either getting points every round or can win by killing your ISD and getting double points from it.

Im saying that any of the compositions I mentioned before are good agains Rieekan aceholes list, just because of Rhymmer. You can add literally anything to the mix, just with rhymmer you are forcing him out, you dont need to engage his squadrons, he must come and engage yours.

You dont even need to go 134. Youre not creating a separate bombing and anti-squadron mix, think out the box. You just need a solid squadron composition with Rhymmer. You are not making a screen to prevent his bombing rounds. Your Rhymmer ball is ALSO your passive screen, because he cant just ignore those shots to your ships from turn 2, and eventually will be forced to come out of GH and engage you. With a single 16pt character you are denying GH and all his squadrons main roles.

*By solid I mean coherent. If you dont go swarm you obviously will not include howlrunner in the mix. If you go Dengar you will probably want some counter. If you go Mithel you will probably want some escort. And so on.

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[PT106 2,316]

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

Im saying that any of the compositions I mentioned before are good agains Rieekan aceholes list, just because of Rhymmer.

Ok. I didn't hear any real arguments backed by data that supports this statement (which is a key statement in all your further elaborations), so I remain unconvinced. In my mind any  of the Euro Top-8 builds (except @Dr alex squadronless build and maybe mass AWing build) do not have more than 50% winning chance against Worlds Rieekan build assuming similar player skill.

Edited June 5, 2017 by PT106
Fixed a typo that reversed the meaning of the last statement (Need.. more... coffee...)

[Aresius 138]

I usually win against rieekan aces.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

13 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Ok. I didn't hear any real arguments backed by data that supports this statement (which is a key statement in all your further elaborations), so I remain unconvinced. In my mind any  of the Euro Top-8 builds (except @Dr alex squadronless build and maybe mass AWing build) had more than 50% winning chance against Worlds Rieekan build assuming similar player skill.

Is there supposed to be a period after "unconvinced"?

[xerpo 177]

16 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Ok. I didn't hear any real arguments backed by data that supports this statement (which is a key statement in all your further elaborations), so I remain unconvinced. In my mind any  of the Euro Top-8 builds (except @Dr alex squadronless build and maybe mass AWing build) had more than 50% winning chance against Worlds Rieekan build assuming similar player skill.

You wont have any data of this because very few knows how to play Rhymmer properly, Im not one of those mainly because I play rebels only, but I've seen it well played many times to firmly state that is a game breaker, specially aginst the so name immortal rieekan aceholes list.

Thats why I like to fly With a modest mass of A wings all the time when Im not creating bombing specialized lists. Because A's are the only ship in the rebel side that can prevent the Rhymmer ball before it actually happens, and properly splitted can also mess with his intel.

[Thraug 1,066]

I have played a lot of Rhymer Balls.
I have played a lot of Rieekan Aces.

Given the state of the game right now I would choose to fly Rieekan Aces over Rhymer in a (big!) tourney, every time. Both are very good but I feel Rieekan Aces is better against more fleets and I would prefer it in the Rhymer/Rieekan matchup. Too many good Rebel Aces now, more resilience with Rieekan, and even if I knew everyone would be playing Kallus I would still choose Rieekan Aces. Rieekan Yavaris is super sauce!

Neither are unbeatable and require a good player to do well, like every fleet. It would be awesome to see the finals 2 Euro Empire players in matches vs the final 2 Rebels from Worlds!
 

[Snipafist 7,536]

@xerpo, it's Rhymer. I'm watching you type "Rhymmer" all over the place and it's driving me insane.

[PT106 2,316]

36 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You wont have any data of this because very few knows how to play Rhymmer properly,

That's a very bold statement. I believe that at Worlds (and Euro) level there are enough good players that know how to run Rhymerball (including our current Wolrd Champion) but either decided not to run it for Worlds or didn't get high enough with it.

 

8 minutes ago, Thraug said:

Given the state of the game right now I would choose to fly Rieekan Aces over Rhymer in a (big!) tourney, every time. Both are very good but I feel Rieekan Aces is better against more fleets and I would prefer it in the Rhymer/Rieekan matchup.

Totally agree. That was my conclusion as well at the time I was going to the Worlds.

[xerpo 177]

13 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

@xerpo, it's Rhymer. I'm watching you type "Rhymmer" all over the place and it's driving me insane.

Sorry

[Madaghmire 7,274]

45 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You wont have any data of this because very few knows how to play Rhymmer properly, Im not one of those mainly because I play rebels only, but I've seen it well played many times to firmly state that is a game breaker, specially aginst the so name immortal rieekan aceholes list.

Thats why I like to fly With a modest mass of A wings all the time when Im not creating bombing specialized lists. Because A's are the only ship in the rebel side that can prevent the Rhymmer ball before it actually happens, and properly splitted can also mess with his intel.

I have trouble accepting that there are few players who know how to use Rhymer properly among the Armada playerbase. He's not new, and he's never been considered anything but top tier. From wave one onward. If you've been playing Imps, you've been playing Rhymer.

I'm not super interested in getting too involved in this, because I feel like its a kind of "stop, stop, you're both right"'kinda thing. Both factions are capable of running some dirty squadron combos. IMO its close enough that you can pick your flavor and succeed. Still, the idea that maybe there aren't enough people who know how to use Rhymer bothered me enough to address it.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

17 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

@xerpo, it's Rhymer. I'm watching you type "Rhymmer" all over the place and it's driving me insane.

 

Me too, mostly because, y'know, pronunciation.

[ovinomanc3r 4,436]

6 hours ago, xerpo said:

GH works when you keep your fighters at distance 1 of it, preventing a potential alpha strike. If you care to measure, Rhymmer and his balls, gives a **** about this since he can tare apart your GH from medium range away from your safe distance 1 screen. SO if you want to prevent rhymmer from further free strikes on your ships you will have to move your speed 3-2 riekan aces list without intel to swarm with rhymmer, again, if you care to measure away from GH safety. So a rhymmer ball properly used is completely denying your 8pt GH all along.

 

Check the distance and you will see you are wrong.

at means distance 1+ the squadron base really. Engaging in fact at distance 1+squadron base+1... ~18.8 cm vs ~18.5 cm (medium range)

It is a tiny difference of course but it is favourable to GH not Rhymer.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Check the distance and you will see you are wrong.

at means distance 1+ the squadron base really. Engaging in fact at distance 1+squadron base+1... ~18.8 cm vs ~18.5 cm (medium range)

It is a tiny difference of course but it is favourable to GH not Rhymer.

It's definitely within a hop, skip, and a FCT-jump from engagement. I've always been wary about that matchup for that reason.

[iamfanboy 1,302]

15 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Reactivating the Iowa Class Battleships, or Bringing a Gun to a Missile Fight

60,000 Tons of Hype, or A Realistic Assessment of the New Chinese Aircraft Carrier Liaoning

There are a couple more that arguably qualify, but that are also overtly political, and reveal my geostrategic leanings in a way rarely popular on the Internet. If anyone wants to discuss any of these, feel free to shoot me an email or PM me.

I hardly think that "Generals prepare for the last war instead of the next war" is a controversial statement... and I broadly agree with the rest of the 'controversial' statements.

Edited June 5, 2017 by iamfanboy

[xerpo 177]

5 hours ago, PT106 said:

That's a very bold statement. I believe that at Worlds (and Euro) level there are enough good players that know how to run Rhymerball (including our current Wolrd Champion) but either decided not to run it for Worlds or didn't get high enough with it.

For this we can go all the way to the beginning and quote myself:

10 hours ago, xerpo said:

2. If there was a truly skilled Rhymmer player at worlds Rieekan would have blown all over the place. So, assuming your statement is correct, then matching DID actually mattered, as it did for europeans. And that "skilled Rhymmer player" never saw Rieekan aces winner.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by xerpo

[geek19 6,557]

1 minute ago, xerpo said:

2. If there was a truly skilled Rhymmer player at worlds Rieekan would have blown all over the place. So, assuming your statement is correct, then matching DID actually mattered, as it did for europeans. And that "skilled Rhymmer player" never saw Rieekan aces winner.

Are you saying that a skilled Rhymer player would beat a skilled Rieekan player? I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, can you tell me how you're reaching that conclusion?

[Bike Stunts 163]

5 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Me too, mostly because, y'know, pronunciation.

 

 "They've been naughty boys, haven't they, Mr. Dengar?"

"Yes!"

"What happens to naughty boys who've been naughty, Mr. Dengar?"

"Uncle Rhymmer fries them alive with close-medium black dice."

[xerpo 177]

22 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Are you saying that a skilled Rhymer player would beat a skilled Rieekan player? I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, can you tell me how you're reaching that conclusion?

Read the whole thread.