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Prepare for War

Depiction of Female Characters in this game

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9 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

While you seem to be a nice enough fellow, the limits of your imagination are part of the whole problem with female representation in all media and in jobs. It's not our job or responsibility to tell women what they should find attractive (and since women are human beings, each one will have a pretty wide ranging idea of what she prefers as being attractive in the first place). It's rather like those legislative sessions on female healthcare where twelve people sit down to write laws dealing exclusively with women, and not one of those people has a uterus.

I 100% agree with what you're saying, but since the leader of the fiction is a woman and I assume she has some say on the art as well, I think we're in good shape here.

People have referenced comic books, and there is a noticeable difference between a male artist and a female artist in that medium.  However, in L5R, outside of Kachiko (who I remember liking at the time, when I was a 14-year-old boy...) L5R has been significantly better than comic books.  People have already mentioned that the exaggerated bulky muscles we see in comics is mostly only in crab, which also fits.  Hell, I always loved the Brotherhood because of their body type diversity; there was a really fat but good 4/1 character who was nice to see as a young fat kid who thought being fat meant I was less of a person, which according to physics is clearly untrue.

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5 minutes ago, Teslacrashed said:



It amazes me so many men are so scared of losing their eye candy, like who cares?

I'd rather women feel welcome and join the the gaming community. 

Who is afraid? Some people just actually don't care and some of those people are women. Seriously go talk to a bunch of Asian women about k-pop stars being nothing but shallow eye candy, some of them will just blink at you and say, "So?"

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8 minutes ago, Teslacrashed said:



It amazes me so many men are so scared of losing their eye candy, like who cares?

I'd rather women feel welcome and join the the gaming community. 

Losing my eye candy?

*takes a look at the Crane previews

Don't think so, pal...

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3 minutes ago, MoZi said:

Who is afraid?

Judging from some of the comments in this thread and another one, at least a few, and I see these same arguments in lots of other forums.

As a guy, I find it disappointing. 

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If art depicted proper bodies based on the characters' physical activity plus some variance to reflect different genetics and/or feeding... If clothing was always fitting to the activity portrayed in the picture... If artists stopped putting characters in body breaking poses... If people were to stop expecting Fantasy Deluxe Bodies™ because "it is a game"... If games just used chibi style...

Bushi being super beefy beyond measure? Ok. Onna-bugeisha being all sexy models that seem to have never seen battle? Ok. Shinjo Altansarnai uses the wrong type of bow to fire from a horse? WAAAAAAAAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!

:lol:

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4 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

If art depicted proper bodies based on the characters' physical activity plus some variance to reflect different genetics and/or feeding... If clothing was always fitting to the activity portrayed in the picture... If artists stopped putting characters in body breaking poses... If people were to stop expecting Fantasy Deluxe Bodies™ because "it is a game"... If games just used chibi style...

Bushi being super beefy beyond measure? Ok. Onna-bugeisha being all sexy models that seem to have never seen battle? Ok. Shinjo Altansarnai uses the wrong type of bow to fire from a horse? WAAAAAAAAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!

:lol:

But...the bow makes no sense, it breaks the realism of the world.

The magical steed she's riding is a-ok though.

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1 hour ago, Teslacrashed said:

I'd rather women feel welcome and join the the gaming community. 

I wish my wife would join the gaming community.  Sadly,  she's not of the nerdy persuasion. She does think the art work in general is cool however.

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7 hours ago, Gaffa said:

While you seem to be a nice enough fellow, the limits of your imagination are part of the whole problem with female representation in all media and in jobs. It's not our job or responsibility to tell women what they should find attractive (and since women are human beings, each one will have a pretty wide ranging idea of what she prefers as being attractive in the first place). It's rather like those legislative sessions on female healthcare where twelve people sit down to write laws dealing exclusively with women, and not one of those people has a uterus.

It's nice to disagree politely on the internet it's like a breath of fresh air.

Where did I tell women what they should find attractive though? I merely looked at the list of top 100 attractive men and collected the characteristics that bind them together. I understand all women are different, but it's not possible to hire all women to draw L5R art for us, and it's not like we don't have diverse represantation of men already. :P It's also not like every womens idea of "attractive men" is wildly different.

All women respond positively to the traits I presented(strength + social power), so we can just make a lot of men strong and powerful to make them attractive for girls(this combination also makes for good stories). I can't see how this is talking over women or my imagination limiting the design space.

As for legislative sessions I belive in meritocracy. If women are best suited for writing this laws it should be all women, if men are best suited it should be men. If we choose individuals not groups than let the individuals with the most skill do the job.

 

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I'm traveling this weekend and don't have the time to fully engage, but on the topic that "women want big muscular men" -- I'm just going to point out that this is the picture that most recently had my female friends salivating:

f3d450b5060230af72a042ff48265930.jpg

Your typical Crab Clan bushi, they are not.

People of all genders find all kinds of things sexy. Some like muscles (on men or women). Some like plumpness (on men or women). Some like slenderness (on men or women). And some characters are not here for your ogling convenience; they've got better things to do than be somebody's pin-up. As long as we get that full array -- for both men and women -- I'm fine.

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1 hour ago, Kinzen said:

People of all genders find all kinds of things sexy. Some like muscles (on men or women). Some like plumpness (on men or women). Some like slenderness (on men or women). And some characters are not here for your ogling convenience; they've got better things to do than be somebody's pin-up. As long as we get that full array -- for both men and women -- I'm fine.

This is mostly right, though there should be one major distinction it seems everyone is missing:  people hate ugly people.
It's a hard fact, but in Rokugan, beauty is important.  So important that Bayushi Shoju, for all his cleverness and cunning, had to wear a face-concealing mask at all times so he'd be presentable in court (all Scorpions where masks, but his really did have a purpose in the fiction).  Shoju married Kachiko specifically so he'd have a beautiful wife standing next to him so people wouldn't question what he looked like.
This may come as a shock to people, but beauty has always been very important.  I can't name a single culture where it isn't, in fact.  In many, beauty is a sign of heavenly favor and inherent goodness (mind you, this is more a rule of thumb, as ever culture has exceptions and people had common sense to know ugly people and be good or pretty people can be bad, but that's not the point).  In Rokugan, beauty is very important.  Very, very important.  The Crane have made sure it is, after all.  People like beauty; being surrounded by it, being in its presence, or just admiring it from afar.  I never understood the movement to shame beauty, or its appreciation.  Also, note that samurai SHOULD be beautiful, especially women.  Samurai are nobility.  They don't do backbreaking work in the sun.  Even a Crab's life is filled with more luxuries than a common peasant's  (when they get time off the Wall, at least).  One major reason there's stories of beautiful princess and knights is because for most of history, that was the case.  Nobility tends to be much more attractive than commoners, because they don't have to suffer things like starvation, undernourishment, sickness and ailment, or spending all day in the sun ruining their skin.  It's hard to imagine for us, as we really live lives of ease in our First World countries, where the only problems are things like complaining about the portal of fictional characters , but life for most people through most of history was HARD.  We're the nobility, now.  There are very few ugly people in most of our lives.  Even the people we think of as 'ugly' typically aren't that bad.  I don't think I've ever come across someone I could truly say was 'ugly' in my day-to-day life.  Now, go look at a picture of some Third World laborers, and compare them to people walking outside your window; it's like looking at two different worlds.
So, I argue, for the most part, yes, the people on the cards SHOULD be beautiful, logically.  And generally they are, man and woman alike.  Even most Crab are sexy in that bearish sort of way.  And shouldn't they be?  We really shouldn't be shaming beauty.  Now, I don't personally like cleavage windows, too much skin, and so on, and I would like a lot less of that, but really, that isn't the norm in L5R.  Sometimes, bad art does show up (bad as in, poor taste), but that's rare, overall.
In my opinion (which is better than yours because it's mine:P), We should stop complaining about virtually nonexistent problems and instead enjoy the game, beautiful art and all.
PS:  I do have to admit, even as a guy, I do love the occasional shirtless beefcake, for ascetically pleasing purposes rather than any male power-trip.

Edited by Samurai Fox

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11 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

While the Unicorn do have some over-sexualized women, I'd say a vast majority are full clothed/armored and trampling fools. Some examples from each family except Ide (because they reproduce by budding and didn't get any female characters until very late.)

Horiuchi Meimei

One of my favorite cards of all time!  Affectionately known as "Bad Touch Grandma" in my group, this ancient lady had a habit of removing enemy units with Touch of Death or Sake House Brawl, then hoisting an Iron Tetsubo along with maybe a Paper to Steel or Scouring Flood to go smashing provinces all on her own.  Many of my opponents learned to respect their elders the hard way. :D

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22 hours ago, Teslacrashed said:



It amazes me so many men are so scared of losing their eye candy. 

I'd rather women feel welcome and join the the gaming community. 

Cool. Show us actual evidence of the degree of which women feel welcome in the gaming community based on art style vs other factors.

Show any specifics relating users you presume to be men to an expressed fear of losing images of unspecified fictional females you've labeled "eye candy". Funny choice of words on your part.

Or just make more lazy statements.

Individual responses and anecdotes aren't necessarily evidence.

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4 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

Cool. Show us actual evidence of the degree of which women feel welcome in the gaming community based on art style vs other factors.

Show any specifics relating users you presume to be men to an expressed fear of losing images of unspecified fictional females you've labeled "eye candy". Funny choice of words on your part.

Or just make more lazy statements.

Individual responses and anecdotes aren't necessarily evidence.

This has a few good points.

One of my biggest frustrations in these conversations are that people take like...no care to parse their statements and come off like they're speaking for all of a demographic.  Its ok to speak only for yourself, fluffing your positions with "women feel/dont feel" or "POC feel/need/dont feel" just opens you up to getting slapped down when a member of the group you presume to speak for  disagrees with you.   

Your positions dont weaken on a matter of opinion if you only speak for yourself, but your credibility suffers when you presume to speak for a group and a member of that group contradicts you.

Maybe people should just say you're not a fan of whatever style of art.  Or that overuse of certain styles annoys you or makes you less inclined to play the game.  But also maybe allow everyone the agency to chime in and speak for themselves rather than having the temerity to make broad statements about the opinions and feelings held by a large diverse group of people.  Less egg on the face when the inevitable contradiction from someone you presumed to speak for comes.

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  It's also a bit more complicated than it looks, I hate to say. I'm a terrible artist myself, but I've worked with enough of them to have picked up the odd tips here and there. I'm going on what I hear from professionals, but haven't independently checked any of this except by anecdote. OK, enough with the humility, on to the unjustified conclusions ;)

  Women's taste in women's bodies with art turns out to change with age. Young girls, for example, have the same taste as the stereotypical teenage boy as far as women's bodies in art (there's a reason Barbie has been popular for nearly a century.) Teenage girls typically prefer less bust, but still prefer thin-to-wasp waisted women in art, at least on average. Adult women's taste in women's bodies in art spans a large gamut, nearly as much as men - men, oddly, reflect higher preference for both sexy/beautiful women and ugly/old woman than the average woman does (the first part isn't odd to me, but the second has always surprised me.)

  So, if you want to 'pick' a depiction to appeal to women, keep in mind that you're also looking at age groups...

Edited by agarrett

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4 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

The point should be that a varied number of characters of various types should be seen in the game.

Equal opportunity butt kicking. 

Works for me. Still, if I get even one cute guy in the Unicorn Clan I'll be satisfied. Not asking for a full K-pop group here.

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6 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

The point should be that a varied number of characters of various types should be seen in the game.

Equal opportunity butt kicking. 

Which is a weird point to make as anyone familiar with the art for this game knows there have been.

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Just now, McDermott said:

Which is a weird point to make as anyone familiar with the art for this game knows there have been.

People have to have something to virtue signal about.  Where there are no problems is the best place to do that.

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