The reason Poe/Maz is bad beyond just the bad play experience

[player996970 6]

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

It's a problem, but it's not ruining the meta or completely broken. Check out the Chance Cube's recent numbers on the meta:

http://www.thechancecube.com/2017/05/29/meta-tracker-report-week-ending-52717/

more telling perhaps are the tournament results, but even there, Poe/Maz wins less than half the time. It's really good, but it doesn't just insta-win:

http://www.thechancecube.com/meta/2017-store-championships-meta-report/

Wanna bet that the reason it is not more prevalent is that you can hardly find some of the cards or the prices are just ridiculous? Last time I checked the UK group there were tons of posts WTB/WTT for detonator, and a single one on auction in ebay.co.uk. In My country there are literally 2 Millenium Falcons, and Poe wasn't easy to find too. 

Let's see how the UK Championship would end tomorrow. 

[Buhallin 4,563]

I'd be willing to bet the numbers are somewhat depressed by the negative view people have of the deck as well.

[player996970 6]

7 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

I'd be willing to bet the numbers are somewhat depressed by the negative view people have of the deck as well.

May be that too, and many people agree the deck is not fun to play with or against. At least judging by comments.

[Starbane 301]

2 hours ago, QissQiQSiQSQS said:

Great links, very valuable info. But its hard to use that data to argue against Poe/Maz being oppressive. It wins 43% of Store Championships. Not total games, but Store Championships. And those links show that as of 5/27, Poe/Maz continues on the up-and-up. It hasn't reached its peak yet.

Those numbers don't look very alarming to me. Poe/Maz won 16.4% of 61 total tournaments, and 43.8% of 16 store championships. Sixteen is no where near an adequate sample size to draw meaningful conclusions and the chart for all games shows some nice diversity.

[DJRAZZ 56]

Poe and Maz makes most decks in the game just for causal play now. If you play any tournaments you are limited to about 4 right now.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

19 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I think this is actually perfectly in line with the OP's point that the card design and balance in Destiny is already showing dramatic cracks.  It's never been FFG's strong suit, but this one seems to be falling apart much faster.

So what 3 games would be the gold standard you wish FFG would emulate in their products?

Edited June 3, 2017 by ScottieATF

[Shaadea 258]

It's easy to spot that Maz is the problem here, as mentioned above. The speed and the dice manipulation through focus, which doesn't cost you an action thanks to her ability, is too good for her meager 8 points. I've played against eLuke/Maz and the same problem there; Luke loaded with fast hands and force speed, rolls in, resolves FS, activates Maz, focus and/or resolves his damage sides. One more turn for playing upgrades or non-damage resolving, than claim. Not teh same damage as Poe, but just as fast and also quite reliable.

Lukas stated that he wants the game to be fast, but I'm not sure that it's healthy for the game when it's over in round 3... Plus, every new expansion will worsen the actual situation (FFG is not known for great balancing, especially when their expansion train starts to hit the road).

[player996970 6]

Maz is OK in every other deck despite her being a star. So...

[The Penguin UK 1,301]

7 hours ago, Shaadea said:

It's easy to spot that Maz is the problem here, as mentioned above. The speed and the dice manipulation through focus, which doesn't cost you an action thanks to her ability, is too good for her meager 8 points. I've played against eLuke/Maz and the same problem there; Luke loaded with fast hands and force speed, rolls in, resolves FS, activates Maz, focus and/or resolves his damage sides. One more turn for playing upgrades or non-damage resolving, than claim. Not teh same damage as Poe, but just as fast and also quite reliable.

Lukas stated that he wants the game to be fast, but I'm not sure that it's healthy for the game when it's over in round 3... Plus, every new expansion will worsen the actual situation (FFG is not known for great balancing, especially when their expansion train starts to hit the road).

 

I've tried Maz/Luke, and I'm not a huge fan. Part of what makes Maz a lot more balanced in that deck is you only get one of her dice...

[Buhallin 4,563]

9 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

So what 3 games would be the gold standard you wish FFG would emulate in their products?

This feels like a trap.  It won't actually matter how good any of the examples are, you'll dig out the one time they screwed up.  So I'm not going to play.

The point is that it is possible to do better.  If you don't think so, if you think FFG's seat-of-the-pants balance is the maximum level of quality possible, I can't do more than disagree.

[HoodieDM 320]

#1 weekly tournaments dont matter bc the outcome/need to win isnt there

#2 store championships will continue to be Poe/Maz. Itll be 75%+ by end of the season

#3 watch the European Continentals upcoming, itll win it

#4 Poe will be erratad by end of summer to be back to his original version, Vehicles only

~D

[Red Castle 3,875]

A good way to errata'd him would be to make his special like Ace in the Hole. Instead of resolving the dice on the side of your choice, you have to roll the die instead.

[Inquisitorsz 334]

My biggest issue with poe/maz actually isn't poe's special and all the fast hands action cheating. 

It's palentary uprising. 

There are ways to stand up to 3-4 damage from poe. It's not much different if he was just rolling his ranged sides. 

It's a bit annoying but even after a fast hands or maz combo you can usually remove one of his dice. (unless he rolled double special naturally with hit and run). 

The problem is that deck can finish a turn in 2-3 actions. Which means they also always claim. If they get one or two planetary uprisings in play early, it's game over. Especially since this deck doesn't really use resources on anything else. 

The damage coming out of poe is manageable, the damage coming out of claiming the battlefield is brutal. 

I'd like to see poe's ability only work on vehicles so that you can't double thermal in one turn. Or maybe cost a resource? 

But I'd like to see planetary uprising become unique much,  much more. 

Especially since only yellow and hero red have any way of removing supports. 

 

Side note :

Had our first store champs yesterday. 

22 people. Only 2 poe/maz one lost in the final other one didn't make top 8. 

Winner was Poe/Rey. Now there's a horribly stupid action cheating deck. 

[gokubb 234]

Roll the die instead, over-nerfs him and he wouldn't see play.

Vehicles only fixes his burst damage vs multi-character list by removing Rocket Launcher and Thermals, but after the next set released more Vehicles, we'd likely be right back where this started.

[HoodieDM 320]

13 hours ago, gokubb said:

Roll the die instead, over-nerfs him and he wouldn't see play.

Vehicles only fixes his burst damage vs multi-character list by removing Rocket Launcher and Thermals, but after the next set released more Vehicles, we'd likely be right back where this started.

It also removes him chucking Launch Bay, OwtF, & MP which make no sense initially. You only have 2 Vehicles to worry about atm doing that, MF & UWing.

~D

[JoshisJoshingyou 18]

Poe/Maz would be fixed if you simply put the Poe support dice in your pool.  Thus giving opponent a chance to react.  Maz would only let you focus get die in pool or use existing Poe special then spend it.  Ace in Hole isn't as close to good as you roll the die and it's in your pool where it can be controlled.  The main thing with Poe/Maz is you have zero chance to react on hit and run turns, and only one action to deal with Poe's roll on other turns.

[DJRAZZ 56]

You mean the dice do not go into the pool? I thought they did. They just resolve right away to the side, any side you choose?

Edited June 5, 2017 by DJRAZZ

[Chakan99939 48]

7 hours ago, DJRAZZ said:

You mean the dice do not go into the pool? I thought they did. They just resolve right away to the side, any side you choose?

Yes, and that is why Poe is strong, especially with Maz focus and instant resolve.

It also pose a major problem with eventual weapon and vehicle in future expansions (Errata could solve this issue).

[Bigulf 60]

 PoeMaz is great and a very strong combo, but with the exception of the hit and run turn it should only resolve 1 of Poe's dice per turn. Now, if you are crying because a deck consistently does 4 damage a turn you need to rethink how you are playing. Play cards like Air Superiority, Spirit of the Rebellion,  and Hunker Down to help you through the Hit and Run turns. Make sure you run plenty of removal and a Guard char when possible to consistently remove a Poe di. Run cards like Salvage Stand to keep PoeMaz starving for money. Don't play for speed, you can't compete with PoeMaz there, play for value. Milk every turn and every reroll out of your deck. A 3 char deck should be able to easily do 5 damage a turn. Our last 30+ person SC was won by ePhasma, Bala, Trooper... he went 6-0 in swiss and beat PoeMaz in the finals. Stop trying to beat PoeMaz by doing what PoeMaz does, that deck is the best at what it does, so do something different.

Edit: discard is good also, and Friends in Low Places to rip the Hit and Run, Defensive Position, or Dug In from their hand.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Bigulf

[Alphastealer 42]

I think FFG will add more defensive effects in the next set to limit the damage that can be dealt.

Something like: Shield Generator  - 4 cost - Support - Neutral (No dice) Special effect: Damage caused from effects, cards or dice greater than 1 damage are reduced to 1 damage.

OR: Ion Cannon - 4 cost - Support - Neutral - (No Dice) Special effect: Exhaust this support and remove 2 die from an opponent character.

OR: Bacta Tank - 4 cost - Upgrade - Neutral - (No Dice) Special effect: Regain 1 health on attached character during each action where no damage was dealt or received.

OR: 'You May Fire When Ready' - 6 Cost - Event - Villian - Spot a Red Character and place 5 damage on each enemy character. No other damage can be dealt this round.  

[netherspirit1982 220]

On 6/3/2017 at 7:58 PM, HoodieDM said:

#1 weekly tournaments dont matter bc the outcome/need to win isnt there

#2 store championships will continue to be Poe/Maz. Itll be 75%+ by end of the season

#3 watch the European Continentals upcoming, itll win it

#4 Poe will be erratad by end of summer to be back to his original version, Vehicles only

~D

#3 didn't happen...

Top 8:

3 poe maz
1 baze snap
1 unkar fn trooper
1 palp
1 phasma guavian trooper
1 vader raider

Unkar/FN/Trooper ended up winning against Vader/Raider. None of the Poe/Maz decks made it to top 4.

6 different teams in the top 8, pretty diverse if you ask me. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by netherspirit1982

[blackholexan 115]

My experience in our local meta since SoR legal tells me the meta is not PoeMaz vs everything.

There are plenty of viable decks.

In the last 4 tournament (with 10+ players each), there were from 2 to 4 PoeMaz players and only one of the tournament so far has been won with that deck. It is a small sample but people opinion on that deck is evolving consequently.

Is it a strong deck? yes

Is it easier playing it than other decks? yes

Is it among the best decks? sure

Is it an unwinnable match? no, not at all.

Nevertheless,  PoeMaz is a good test deck because it allows you to test 3 vital parameters of your deck: consistency, speed, meta tools.

There are a few decks that you need to play against to verify your deck's performances and PoeMaz is among them.

 

[netherspirit1982 220]

1 minute ago, blackholexan said:

My experience in our local meta since SoR legal tells me the meta is not PoeMaz vs everything.

There are plenty of viable decks.

In the last 4 tournament (with 10+ players each), there were from 2 to 4 PoeMaz players and only one of the tournament so far has been won with that deck. It is a small sample but people opinion on that deck is evolving consequently.

Is it a strong deck? yes

Is it easier playing it than other decks? yes

Is it among the best decks? sure

Is it an unwinnable match? no, not at all.

Nevertheless,  PoeMaz is a good test deck because it allows you to test 3 vital parameters of your deck: consistency, speed, meta tools.

There are a few decks that you need to play against to verify your deck's performances and PoeMaz is among them.

 

Same here our meta is pretty diverse and changes from week to week. I've given up trying to guess what the other players will play each week and just play something that's good that I know how to play well.

We had 18 people at our store champs and 11 different teams. Only 1 Poe/Maz, I think people were prepared for more of it and were playing things that were good against it. The lone Poe/Maz player didn't make the cut.

There were 4 ePalp decks and 3 eVader/eKylo decks, everything else was different.

The top 4 was:

1st: eJabba/eDooku

2nd: eRey/eHan

3rd/4th: eVentress/eDooku

3rd/4th: ePalp

[KalEl814 1,510]

Personally I think the worst part of Poe/Maz is the umpteen threads that it's inspired.

[AlexW 2,902]

A deck doesn't have to be unbeatable or win everything to be a problem.   It's early,  but it does seem like Poe/Max is having a large effect on the meta and is pushing out decks with more than two characters in general (not that they can't win, obviously).   

This is a thing a I think a lot of people, including very a lot of players, and prominent podcasts don't address in this discussion.    There is some hand waving since it's beatable but a deck like that this has a good win rate and is very oppressive to certain kinds of decks can be just as much a problem as an unbeatable deck.   

It's definitely a problem worth keeping an eye on and things may adjust.