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Darth Meanie

OK, seriously, can we stop "fixing" ships?

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There are 40+ ships in this game.  They will never all be 100% balanced.

If you fix one, then a different one won't see enough play, and then THAT one will need a fix.

If you like a ship, put it on the table.  Figure it out.  And if everyone did that, there would be a huge variety of ships on the table, we could all stop breathing the pure oxygen of the meta, see a metric crap ton of variety, play for fun, and win some/lose some.

 

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6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are 40+ ships in this game.  They will never all be 100% balanced.

If you fix one, then a different one won't see enough play, and then THAT one will need a fix.

If you like a ship, put it on the table.  Figure it out.  And if everyone did that, there would be a huge variety of ships on the table, we could all stop breathing the pure oxygen of the meta, see a metric crap ton of variety, play for fun, and win some/lose some.

 

The ship you're playing is always seeing play.

The question is whether you're playing the ship you WANT to play, or just the ones that dont end up with you crushed.

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6 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

The ship you're playing is always seeing play.

The question is whether you're playing the ship you WANT to play, or just the ones that dont end up with you crushed.

To paraphrase Indiana Jones:

"It ain't the ships, honey, it's the format."

The ships are fine; the format is dead.  100/6 is a one-hit wonder that cannot support variety.

Fix 100/6.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I don't mind the fixes/buffs/nerfs coming for ships. As someone with a background in competitive esports games like StarCraft, I'm very much used to them. The game flows and changes with them. It honestly can keep things fresh, if done right.

On the counterpoint, the constant moaning is grating in the extreme. I honestly thought I'd gotten away from that "Zomgz Blizz nerf X now. Daed gaem" crap, but it's become just as bad here. Wanting a buff for your favourite ship is one thing, but blasting out a thesis on why you're demanding FFG adhere to your demands, and then having a ten page argument with someone who just wants something else buffed/changed/nerfed/whatever, that's whole other world of unfriendly, disinteresting rabble that the game could frankly do without. Some of the threads are started with great intentions, as more of a brainstorming of "what would it take for 'X' to be competitive" or "what is holding back 'Y' from top tier". Unfortunately, these all too frequently degenerate into yet more fanatical demands for their fix to be applied to something, that the ship in topic isn't the problem and it's actually "'Z' is OP", or that the game is entirely ruined by <insert upgrade/pilot/ship/faction of the day here>

 

FFG doesn't owe you a fix for any ship. You're welcome to desire it, and even to discuss it civilly, but you're not owed it. 

Edited by NakedDex

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2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are 40+ ships in this game.  They will never all be 100% balanced.

If you fix one, then a different one won't see enough play, and then THAT one will need a fix.

If you like a ship, put it on the table.  Figure it out.  And if everyone did that, there would be a huge variety of ships on the table, we could all stop breathing the pure oxygen of the meta, see a metric crap ton of variety, play for fun, and win some/lose some.

 

Sure, you can put any ship in the table. And it would provide more variety. But it doesn't mean you will WIN in a competitive environment with said ship.  

If you can make a list with a tie punisher that can reliably win high level competitive events, then you can argue that all you need is to put the table on the table and figure it out.

and it's not like fixes mean we get less other ships. 2 waves per year is the standard, and plenty of people already think ffg treleases new ships too fast (not me, but others do). What's the harm in getting new toys for old ships in between?

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Need I remind you that the titular ship of the game and most of the movie ships see only the rarest of play.  I ahven't seen a wave 1-3 ship beyond Biggs as cannon fodder since the Great Nerfing.  (When Soontir and the Lambda and Vader were hot stuff). 

 

Please. 

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5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

most of the movie ships see only the rarest of play.

Surely you mean at high tier competitive level standard games.  I see the movie ships being played all the time.  If you're not seeing them talk to your group about theming your lists or playing something other than 100 points.  

5 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

make a list with a tie punisher

For me mostly the problem with the TIE Punisher is the TIE Bomber it does the same but cheaper.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The ships are fine; the format is dead.

Yep - we need objectives.  Unrealistic that the only goal is total destruction.  Rebels won at Scarif despite being almost wiped out by getting the Death Star plans out and they won at Hoth by escaping.  I played the Gozanti missions recently in the last mission as Imperials I had one ship left and managed to win by reaching the objective.  I had not taken out one Rebel ship - the mission was more important.

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The occasional ship fix is fine. Ffg is a group of humans, and humans can make mistakes. Finding ways to correct them in some way (Nerf or buff) is fair as a way to address that. The starviper has always been over costed, so that fix is perfect for it. The Jumpmaster has probably been undercosted (or have other issues at work there, different topic beaten to death via forums), so some fix that balances is ok.

Now, expecting every ship to be the best at 100/6 is insanity. With this many ships, there will be winners and losers of ships that just do the job better. The real way to fix x-wing is to have multiple victory conditions - objective or mission based games field lists very different than the straight up 100/6. Then you need to consider you may not know the objective ahead of time and plan for it. I would support a "hanger bay" style tournament, where you bring two squads or some sort of pool of candidate ships and then you find out your objective in the "establish play area" step. Now you have to pick from your squads or pool of ships what you can fit into a mission with point limit that will do well at your task. Some missions may need heavy firepower, others need speed and agility more.

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8 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

What I think ffg forums need is a title. something that gives up the astromech slot but gives you an automatic evade against any fixit post. They could release it in the next faq. Also, it should have 8 red dice, 9 hull, 4 agility, and white tallon rolls. -4 points.

Don't you think that's a little overpowered and will skew the meta?

I'm also concerned about the wording.  Is that an evade token or action?  And can you do it if you're stressed?

I would also prefer green Sloops instead of talon rolls.

Thank you.

PS - Can you send me a sticker for this errata?

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8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

if-it-s-not-broken-fix-it-until-it-is-2.

This does seem like it is sometimes...especially in public education (not that I'm trying to derail this thread or anything...but inflammatory posts are inflammatory.)

 

Edited by Scopes
clarity

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6 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

If you can make a list with a tie punisher that can reliably win high level competitive events, then you can argue that all you need is to put the table on the table and figure it out.

I took a Tie Punisher list to my store championship last year and placed top 8. (I think we had 39 players)  I also ran it at a number of different LGS tournaments, typically placing in Top 3 or winning outright.

Does every ship have to be able to win at high level competitive events to make it worthwhile and fun to play with?

My playing level likely ends at a nearby Regional, because Nationals and Worlds are pretty much cost prohibitive for me to attend due to travel distance/costs and the other costs associated with attending.

I can honestly say that I think I've flown almost every ship (except the Ghost - which I don't own) in casual games or local tournaments.  Win or lose, I've managed to have fun, get my fair share of swag, and make some friends along the way.  Isn't that really what matters the most?

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7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Need I remind you that the titular ship of the game and most of the movie ships see only the rarest of play.  I ahven't seen a wave 1-3 ship beyond Biggs as cannon fodder since the Great Nerfing.  (When Soontir and the Lambda and Vader were hot stuff). 

What about Poe.  The T-70 is an X-wing.  Drop Poe, Biggs, and one other and suddenly you're flying all X-Wings.

1 hour ago, Sasajak said:

Surely you mean at high tier competitive level standard games.  I see the movie ships being played all the time.  If you're not seeing them talk to your group about theming your lists or playing something other than 100 points.  

For me mostly the problem with the TIE Punisher is the TIE Bomber it does the same but cheaper.

Yep - we need objectives.  Unrealistic that the only goal is total destruction.  Rebels won at Scarif despite being almost wiped out by getting the Death Star plans out and they won at Hoth by escaping.  I played the Gozanti missions recently in the last mission as Imperials I had one ship left and managed to win by reaching the objective.  I had not taken out one Rebel ship - the mission was more important.

Do you want a target?  A military target?  Then fix the system!!

I grow tired of asking. . .

52 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

So is the OP saying that the new titles for Kihraxz and Starviper are bad for the game in some way?

A perfect balance is impossible.  But better balance is still... better?

No.  What I am saying is that now that K and SV are fixed, now people are whining about the TIE Interceptor.  Which I just had a lot of fun flying 2 nights ago.  Because I'm not hung up on 100/6.

It isn't broken.  Nor is the x-wing.  They are just not uber-meta.

So, IMHO, you have to choose. . .uber-meta or fly these ships.  And that will not change until the format is fixed.

So, if you want to start a FIX thread, start one about how to fix the 100/6 format.

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10 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are 40+ ships in this game.  They will never all be 100% balanced.

If you fix one, then a different one won't see enough play, and then THAT one will need a fix.

If you like a ship, put it on the table.  Figure it out.  And if everyone did that, there would be a huge variety of ships on the table, we could all stop breathing the pure oxygen of the meta, see a metric crap ton of variety, play for fun, and win some/lose some.

 

This. 

 

1000x this.

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12 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are 40+ ships in this game.  They will never all be 100% balanced.

If you fix one, then a different one won't see enough play, and then THAT one will need a fix.

If a fix for one ship is balanced (and not OP), then it shouldn't knock anything out of the meta.  It just offers more options.  I don't see why this is a problem.   The /x7 is the only fix that went too far.  There have been a lot of fixes that have made things much better, but not broken.

  • A-wing Test Pilot
  • X1 title
  • /D title
  • Guidance Chips
  • Long Range Scanners
  • Auto Thrusters
  • Light Scyk title
  • Heavy Scyk title fix

These are all good things in the game.  I don't see a problem with any of them.   Can you imagine anyone flying the Tie Advanced without the X1 title?  It's barely seen with the title.  

The two new titles are very good.   They don't make anything "broken" or OP.  They make things viable in a regular game.  You have more options of ships to take.  What's wrong with that?  They don't knock something else out.  Sure, it's not 100% balanced, but it's a lot more balanced with these fixes in the game than without.  

I think once the next Nerf comes around it will remove the issues with the last few hold outs of really OP and broken stuff.   Then, the game will be in a really good spot.   

Of course, I LOATHE all the "fix ___ ship" threads going on these forums.   :)  I just like what FFG actually does do.

Edited by heychadwick

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