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The Laughing God

The definitive Haarlock's Legacy speculation [AND SPOILER!] thread

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 Indeed, Kalliphrei is indeed almost-homophonous to Gallifrey.  Nevertheless: 40k's time travel stuff should, IMO, be handled with some decorum.

Being as trite-and-flippant about it as Doctor Who/Star Trek usually is with it would be a *bad idea*. Invoking alternate realities and things is a poor move. Preserving *absolute, terrifying weirdness* on the other hand, is quite desirable. Though I think it's quite easy to superimpose the Time Lords onto 40k, I think that'd be a disservice, personally. Not only a bit of blatant ripping (albeit affectionate), but also weak compared to what you could really do with the ideas.

As inspiration for 40k-based events, I'd say this Erasmus-is-Solomon thing has more than a little awesomeness to it. However, I'd be inclined to suppose that a more horrific, warp-based explanation would be beneficial rather than "What Erasmus tried to do actually worked" (i.e. he travelled into the past, became his own grand-father and was the very reason he in his own personal past turned on his remaining family and slaughtered them all). Lots of miserable failure, lots of unspeakable consequences.

Having just said that, I think the explanation simply needs 'more work'. It's not unworkable and it's not entirely unpalatable. But, I think it's safe to say that most folks are actually quite reserved/cynical when it comes to invoking time travel. And rightly so (wibbly wobbly) as it can be horrid if done badly. Done well, it's usually 'just excellent' ('Blink').

So, avoiding that a little, we really need a good look at what would actually work for this. Not just 'what wacky, sci-fi plausible solution fits', but also what actually plays up to the strengths of 40k and the DH setting. Looking at the themes listed in Tattered Fates/Damned Cities, what would be most logical?

I'd say that Erasmus/Solomon returning makes sense. It's explicit. They disappear, they return. But then, going the sci-fi rather than sensible route, it's possible that Erasmus' reappearance in 'Dead Stars' will not be his final fate, i.e. when he actually returns, he might still not have become Solomon Haarlock *yet*. The conclusion of Dead Stars will see the acolytes banishing him back to the past, doomed to become Solomon!

Right, I betrayed my own rules there and got completely carried away. I have a problem, I need help. And it's about bloody time!

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 Same way I'd fit in dwarfs. The Demiurg.

Well, that's not quite right. I'd take bits of them and spread it about. What's 'iconic' of a timelord? Time travel? Arrogance? Non-interference? Stagnation? Ancient? Supreme technology? Regeneration?

There's lots of that sort of thing already present in 40k. Lots of them. The main missing bit is  the time-travel portion. And we are pretty certain that there's a certain degree of 'time travel' at work in 40k.

Well, I say time travel, but I mean the warp's utter oddness. The creatures and beings in the warp are timeless. Slaanesh only came into existence at the Eldar Fall, but it surely 'existed' in the warp as eternally as anything ever did or didn't. If time's meaningless then it's 'birth' is a pretty bizarre reference to make.

Taking the 'gods' of Warhammer 40k, we can look right at 'em. The Emperor, The Ruinous Powers, The Old Ones/Eldar Pantheon (if Xenology's implications are held true, if not, separate them out). Vaul died. The Emperor was born. The Emperor imprisoned the Void Dragon on the Vaul Moon. Vaul used his Talismans to weaken the Void Dragon and force it into its repose.

I'd go so far as to make the claim that humanity's 'shamans' who suicided to make the Emperor (according to esoteric, possibly-no-longer-used lore), I'd suppose those shamans 'inherited' the fragments of Vaul (and possibly other Old Ones). The Emperor, in his pursuit of the Throne(s) used them to achieve some form of ascendency/apotheosis towards becoming an Old One (knowingly? I don't care to speculate...)

But that's unimportant, I use it just to illustrate the possible 'link' of time travel via the warp. Presumably then linking in the Ordo Chronos and the Time Lords and whatever else is done in that matter.

As per 'The Sound of Drums' and 'The End of Time', I'd say "being taken to view the untempered schism" is analogous to experiencing warp-shock in 40k's Dark Heresy rules. Some would be inspired, some would run away and some would go mad.

Unfortunately, again as per 'The Sound of Drums', we already have an "oldest and most mighty race in the universe"; the C'tan. The Time Lords recently wanted to end time itself, the C'tan want to seal off the universe from the warp. I say potato...

-

But that actually clears things up quite nicely. I wouldn't want to the Time Lords wholesale. But I understand you would, ThenDoctor, which can be done quite easily, all told (especially in light of The End of Time, just presume they won and killed the Doctor.)

For my purposes, I'd weave it through 40k as it stands, maybe with a slight bit of improvisation on my part with the Demiurg. (Don't worry, one day you'll all see my masterplan.) The Eldar were inspired by the War in Heaven (what could be more time war than a war between 'the oldest and most mighty race in the universe, the C'tan" and "the bona-fide original super-powerful warp-users engineering entirely new species to succeed them and fight their wars, the Old Ones"?), the Demiurg ran away, the Necrons & C'tan went mad. Simple...

Obviously not that simple, but there's so much room to play about with it. Even without bringing in Tardises and actual, regular player-controlled time-travel. Having said that, I *am* working on a conversion of a Call of Cthulhu scenario wherein the acolytes find a device which permits them to 'leave reality' (across the deepest stretches of the warp...just like in Liber Chaotica). Where do they emerge? Well, I won't be explicit, but I'm drawing heavily on one of the cities mentioned in a certain reptillian's Fantasy Armybook...

Already the alleged depth of the War in Heaven permits us to really 'go to new territory' without just rehashing DW scripts and stories. The idea that 40k is just a 'cold war' stage of the War in Heaven is quite intriguing. The "Inquisition War" books tell of a time-travelling point in the webway, Wyrd characters or psykers can start play with Timefade or, more easily, Spaceslip. Then there's the Ocularians. And the legacy of the Starchild, Farseeing (can farseers and diviners look into the past as well as the future? I'd say yes. Certainly, Navigators seem to be able to, even if only implicitly).

The arrow of time needn't point in one direction. Hell, for 40k's metaphysics-of-the-warp we *know* it doesn't. 

 

 

 

The Haarlock Legacy.

Solomon & Erasmus.

Blind Tesseracht.

Back in time. Escaped from reality (overbleed on timefade?)

Daemons are timeless and time is irrelevant.

Rogue Trader incorporates time travel in the mechanics. Anything Ascended characters could 'wangle' by ascending a Navigator into a different career?

I can't quite see a direct link to the Legacy yet, but I'll keep thinking on it. A lot. I'd not be surprised if I can't shake this thought!

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id certainly be a fan if you would convert some Dr Who into 40k at least the mechanics behind it a few psyker powers or even a race (new enemies? remember before the war ended the Gallifreyans went a bit bonkers and brought hell on themselves i.e. a full warp breach on the planet) possibly a bit of plot im really likin your ideas

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Cheers, ThenDoctor! I see a lot of possibility out there, but it's difficult to translate the 'good idea' into a 'good execution' with good rules and well-thought-out fluff to accompany it. Most interesting, I expect, would be either expanding the Demiurg/Hrud as a fan-supplement and incorporating a few of the ideas, or simply going wholesale at creating a "Chronomancy" discipline.

Well, psychic powers are 'easy', of sorts. Something like 'Glimpse' (I'd say) fairly well-represents the Ninth Doctor's ability to step through the 'retro' air conditioning (fans) in "The End of the World".

Cybermen? Easy, Pariahs and Halo Devices. As things go, nothing today provokes a more curious 'yuk' response than bringing up transhumanism! Seriously, the thought of it just terrifies some people!

With the Daleks? Well, that's a bit more tricky, but I have introduced in my proposed Demiurg 'arsenal' the fact that Demiurg (for me, would) use legions of robo-warriors, not their own actual bodies. And, indeed, their own 'actual bodies' might not even exist, they themselves could be machines! It's not a complete approximation to Daleks, but the idea of an armoured pepperpot, possibly flying robot created solely to exterimate billions of orks from an inhabited, but resource-filled planet is quite nice!

But then there's other aspects too. Ascension introduces the 'Chronology' (or whatever they're called) 'Ascended Psyker Powers', whilst I think a 'Chronomancy' discipline of powers would actually be quite interesting. It'd be simple to do too, mapping some of the Navigator Powers as psychic powers is nice and straightforward, if a bit bland and a 'cheat'. Some sorcerous rituals actually replicating some of the stuff the Haarlocks might have been able to do is again an intriguing possibility.

You know what I might do for my own runs of the Haarlock Legacy? Make all the Clocks actually important. Like some sort of heretek chrono-manipulator. The Theatre of Clocks could potentially do something very wacky should acolytes ever make it to Xicarcph on Quaddis *before* Tattered Fates. Wouldn't that be nice?

Then, of course, there's room for things like "The Murder Room" in "Disciples of the Dark Gods" (it's bigger on the inside?), or perhaps the beasts who chase you from the angles of time in "Creatures Anathema" (a loose homage/lift of the Hounds of something or other from Call of Cthulhu, though sortof like the Reapers in "Father's Day") if you've read the Conceit.

Actually, having mentioned the these beasts, I looked 'em up: The Praedetoris of the Starry Order in "Creatures Anathema". There's lots of odd bits of 40k lore that simply haven't been explored. The Hrud, for instance, seem like a whole species of not-quite-as-intelligent Davroses and Kaleds. Mutants, dwindling, ruined by their god and turned from 'galactic librarians' into something worse, something sinister and corrupting, something wholly 'yeuch' but still not Chaos. There's overtures of 'time bizarreness' to them.

Similarly the Jokaero (makers of the digi-weapons, space orang-utans). Their ships are said to travel by exploiting the geometry of spacetime, folding themselves into esoteric shapes and therefore processing the warp itself. Imagine, if you will, that hexagrammic and pentagrammic wards (and dwarfen rune-magic from Fantasy) were turned towards space-time manipulation...there's no reason the Jokaero 'couldn't' do it (amongst all their other wonders), it's just that they *don't*.

Of course, there's massive amounts of room out there in 40k for other places. Imagine then discovering the ruin of Gallifrey? Finding the Citadel of the Time Lords (or nameless now dead/vanished species X9287), 40k is rife with ruins of ancient civilisations, introducing a 'nod' to the Time Lords (or, hehe, finding the ruins of Skaro, a planet which still orbits the neutron-star core leftover from when it's star originally went unexpectedly supernova[the Hand of Omega in "Remembrance of the Daleks"])

"The Riddle of the Impenetrable Blue Box" is a fine name for a scenario, especially if your players know little of the Doctor Who 'mythos'. Bring in the 'reapers' from Father's Day, stumble across the ruined battle-shells of some fearsome enemies, find the 'tomb of the cybermen' (take the plot of that Second Doctor Story and turn it wholesale into a Necron-, Abominable Intelligence- or other-themed story!)

 

 

The Haarlock Legacy. Aliens. That's a core point which hasn't been much discussed. Of everything Rogue Traders do, why isn't there much talk of the aliens? The xenos evil? What did Solomon steal from the Eldar, perhaps? Does the Haarlock Legacy (and the Tyrant Star) link in at all to the legacy of the War in Heaven? Are the C'tan or the Old Ones even related to the point?

Who knows!? I still haven't figured it out...!

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Nomadic Xenos, live on massive 'commerce vessel' starships, introduced to inherit the 'niche' previously filled by Squats, two ships released for the "Battlefleet Gothic" game and allies of the Tau Empire. Mercenaries from hire or space-ship bound industrialists. Not much is 'known' about them, but that's why I liked building lots of things around them.

Much more technically advanced than the Tau (and possibly humanity), faintly similar to Dwarfs (live in bastions/strongholds, highly technical, hate orks etc), but given the motives for no longer having squats around, I doubt there's *that* much similarity to dwarfs. Hence mine fill the same 'archetype', but there'll be no beards, axes or ancestors when I about!

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Xisor said:

The Haarlock Legacy. Aliens. That's a core point which hasn't been much discussed. Of everything Rogue Traders do, why isn't there much talk of the aliens? The xenos evil? What did Solomon steal from the Eldar, perhaps? Does the Haarlock Legacy (and the Tyrant Star) link in at all to the legacy of the War in Heaven? Are the C'tan or the Old Ones even related to the point?

Who knows!? I still haven't figured it out...!

I wonder if the whole Haarlock thing has something to do with the Eldar considering the Calixis sector accursed .. maybe they have divined the return of the Dark Traveller and know what abomination he has become, and the doom this spells for the sector.

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The Laughing God said:

Do you think FFG reads this thread and may get away inspired for writing how the Haarlock saga should conclude? lengua.gif

One can only hope.  gran_risa.gif

After all, there are many, many very cool ideas in here.  cool.gif

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i dont really want someone else to start a new post on speculation for the haarlock legacy, after this one started they quit and a lot of other posts went into it. i just want to prevent more posts for no reason.

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ThenDoctor said:

i dont really want someone else to start a new post on speculation for the haarlock legacy, after this one started they quit and a lot of other posts went into it. i just want to prevent more posts for no reason.

 

Um ...... what?  Please forgive our (my) ignorance here.  But what exactly, is your concern here?  If I instigated it, then I apologize.  But I'm just not getting your concern here.  preocupado.gif

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im not meaning to cause confusion to anyone, i just dont want this thread to die out into the back of the forum and just for it to reappear a month later and everything just be repeated. an example of what im talking about would be the "overpowere 2 handed weapon" thread that usually pops up every month from what i can tell.

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Ah.  Okay ... I think I get where you're coming from.

So, since I don't have anything nearly as creative to add as many of the previous posters, I will sit back and just read.  Sorry, didn't mean to threaten the longevity of this thread.  And no, I am not being sarcastic or petulant.  gui%C3%B1o.gif

I agree that this thread is useful and fun, and I'd hate t see it flounder, and then be reborn with the same old stuff over and over.  I have had great fun just reading some of the ideas here.  cool.gif

Therefore, I withdraw, until such time as I come up with something truly cool to add.  happy.gif

Carry on, gamers.

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Squats live!!

Sneaky sneaky DH developers. :)

This is more or less my first post, hey ya'll!

I'm almost too embarrassed to post as my W40K library has sat unread on the bookshelf since Christmas 2009. Sorry, GURPS 4e reading took precedence.

Anyways, I found a vague reference to squat muscle-bound machinists living on the Latheworld in the DH core rulebook. Page number escapes me but it's in the planets of the Callixis sector part of the book. Based upon the description and personality provided I'd say these are the remnants of a Squat community taking refuge in the Imperium.

What's next? Zoats hearding on some backwater feudal world? That would be too awesome!!

Best!

>>ReaperWolf

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ThenDoctor said:

not that im not enthused, but whats a zoat?

Dude, don't take the bait, cause this wildly off-topic discussion will spell the very fate for this thread that you hoped would not happen ...

(btw a zoat is a weird dinosaur-like centaur-creature now grouped among Chaos monsters I think in WFRP and W40K)

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ah ok and yeah i knew it was off topic i was just wondering, however i would like to add that im wondering if we are missing something with the whole legacy. like well...how and why did his wife and kid die?/how many kids did he have?

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ThenDoctor said:

ah ok and yeah i knew it was off topic i was just wondering, however i would like to add that im wondering if we are missing something with the whole legacy. like well...how and why did his wife and kid die?/how many kids did he have?

This has always been left vague. I think Erasmus Haarlock lost his wife and daughter due to the internecine warfare in the Haarlock bloodline. He then decided to wipe out all of his kin. And he did. Then he decided to somehow master time so he could return to the moment before they died and prevent their deaths from happening. From that point on, anyone's guess is as could as mine :)

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