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The Laughing God

The definitive Haarlock's Legacy speculation [AND SPOILER!] thread

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Logister said:

 

 

  • The Voice of the Flame: The daemon Balphomael (DotDG)
  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

 

 

 

Well, maybe I can shed some light (for the Emperor, of course):

 

The Voice sounds like some kinda wink to BAPHOMET, the supposed entity the real life Templars worshipped, a Talking Head, literally.  Most likely just BS created to get them in trouble with everyone.  The Templars had a lot of dough & lotse peeps owed 'em.

Mord'dagan sounds awfully like MORDDIGGIAN, Clark Ashton Smith's (HP Lovecraft's pal), Charnel God of the ghouls.

 

Now, we can only speculate if these are entities based entirely on the originals, just a nod to them (thusly completely made-up by FFG/GW), or coincidences.

 

 

L

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Logister said:

  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

The Saynay Clan are referenced in the Rogue Trader rulebook, listed amongst the Chaos Pirates that roam the Koronus Expanse.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Logister said:

 

  • The Eater of the Dead: Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult, Dusk. (I havn't the faintest clue)

 

 

The Saynay Clan are referenced in the Rogue Trader rulebook, listed amongst the Chaos Pirates that roam the Koronus Expanse.

 

if its from dusk its probably the Hag Witch that makes pacts by mutilating peoples bodies something obviously chaos piratey and kind of dark eldary

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Logister said:

The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Empty Hunger: Astral entity, aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena, Drusis Shrine World/Sacris. (I got nothing)

IIRC the entire world ocean of Spectoris is somehow sentient. Something is down there. I wonder if all these entities can be called daemons, I think they are pre-human things that out of ignorance are grouped together now by those who know as daemons, but they can be something else alltogether (just as the returning Erasmus Haarlock).

The Empty Hunger reminds me of fluff I read in Xenology (excellent book!), about a god driven out into realspace and fragmented into thousands of shards of its former essence, the Umbra.

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The Laughing God said:

Logister said:

 

The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Empty Hunger: Astral entity, aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena, Drusis Shrine World/Sacris. (I got nothing)

 

 

IIRC the entire world ocean of Spectoris is somehow sentient. Something is down there. I wonder if all these entities can be called daemons, I think they are pre-human things that out of ignorance are grouped together now by those who know as daemons, but they can be something else alltogether (just as the returning Erasmus Haarlock).

The Empty Hunger reminds me of fluff I read in Xenology (excellent book!), about a god driven out into realspace and fragmented into thousands of shards of its former essence, the Umbra.

The Lingerer or That Which Lingers. A god of the Hrud and seems to mirror Kaine's fate in a lot of ways. I don't think the Umbra and the Empty hunger are linked. That Which Lingers doesn't strike me as Hungering all that much... just, well, Lingering...

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Logister said:

Then the tree that I want to know more about:

  • The Dweller in the Depths: The Sightless Gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown, Spectoris. Spectoris is a water world that exports large amounts of fish and is very hostile to non-natives (TAH). Conjecture: this entity is of a cthulhu type.

The Inquisitor's Handbook mentions a powerful xeno entity called the Umbran (not to be mixed with the Umbra of Xenology) that lived in the waters of Spectoris, fathered a lot of spawn and was finally killed by Inquisition intervention... Or was it?

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The Laughing God said:

 @Graver: wouldn't surprise me if the Gilded Widow is indeed a throw-away name because it sounded cool and ties in to the Widow theme. The whole House of Dust and Ash adventure in some respects seems like a draft version of Tattered Fates anyway (though I really like it!): acolytes locked up in a closed locale (the crematorium vs the mansion) with a countdown to destruction (the firestorm program vs the Tyrant star), a dangerous murdering entity (Gilded Widow vs the Widower), meant to do away with Haarlock's descendants and relatives.

A thought that suddenly struck me after perusing Tattered Fates again (which has some references in the form of the words 'captivity'  and 'time'  next to a painting of the fate of Tanis, IIRC, and the Widower says something like ' a shadow out of time'  when referring to the Tyrant star, but I will have to look this up once I am back behind my books again) ...

... what if the Tyrant star is some kind of shadowy representation of Tanis, the soul of that murdered world, come back from the past to cause destruction and madness???

Maybe Komus is Tanis but caught out of time, a lingering echo of a world slaughtered overnight?

 

And about that letter that is printed on the pages of Tattered Fates and Damned Cities .. I noticed it is also on the pages of the Radical's Handbook. If we can find it in more books, its significance to the Haarlock's Legacy should probably not be overestimated :)

Bwt the more I think of it, the less I find Damned Cities to be about Haarlock. It is a murder mystery and the main protagonist knows about Haarlock, but that is all. It's more like a standalone adventure with some references to the Legacy thrown in at the end, then a logical and narratively logical installment of the trilogy.

 

'The letter' is also in the pages of dark heresy. I do not have a copy of Inquisitor to hand, but i believe that it is a quote from Inquisitor Quixos, before his death at the hands of Inquisitor Eisenhorn. However, i really like it as a quote from haarlock.

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im fairly sure its in every DH book that they have out, though i dont think quixos said it to eisenhorn. he didnt really have much time to say anything before eisenhorn finished him off

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Pretty sure is inquisitor, listed with source. I think i will be popping home tomorrow, so i may be able to check then. Ofcause, i am working from memory, and it was maybe two years ago then i last read the setting material for inquisitor.

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Though daemons and warpy stuff are all 'chaotic' in nature, they're also not. Some (most?) Slaaneshi daemons have been faffing about long since before the fall of the Eldar Empire (and the birth of Slaanesh). Timeline, chronology, order and even 'nature' need not make uniform sense with regards to warp creatures. Whilst Khorne abhors sorcery, I fully relish the idea of unleashing a psyker-power-wielding bloodletter. Why not? The warp is an inexplicable place, it's 'apparent order' doesn't need to be held to, merely the sense of setting preserved.

As long as things 'don't make sense' but still work in the setting, I'm good with that. With that in mind, the nature of Komus and the 7 can be both 'chaos-daemonic' and also 'something else'. Something drawing in/out/from/beyond a strange part of the warp? We don't know the 'deep' extent of the Chaos Gods nor even their 'real' (if anything can be called as such) nature within the warp. Their limited extend in the materium is quite something we should...play around with. Not butcher, by any means, but use to probe people's preconcieved notions.

With that in mind, I rather think the nature of the Thrones and Halo Objects are intimately intertwined with the War in Heaven (cref. the legacy of Hrud's Qah and Eldar's Khaine as the Umbra and Avatars). Some seem obviously necronish, some seem blatantly riffing on the 'power of the Thrones' in 40k (cref. the Golden Throne, the other Golden Throne [Akashic Reader], the Silver Throne [Alpha/Theta Wave enhancer] and the Ork Throne [see Headhunted]). Some, of course, will be miscategorised or so-obscure-we-can't-figure-'em-out, but I'd say that's the 'tie-in'.

Things like Komus, the 7 and such could link to the initial 'perturbations' caused by the Old Ones' meddling in the War in Heaven. The same time/origins as the Enslavers yet 'before' the onset of Chaos as we know it. All still of the same warp and all still of the same 'type' of mechanism of stuff (beliefs, willpower, warp dabbling, avoiding death etc).

Add into it that the War in Heaven is probably alot more complicated than Old Ones + Children (Warp) vs C'tan + Necrons (Materium).

Well, that's my 'buy in' to the Haarlock Legacy, keeps it tied to the 'running theme' of the overarching 40k, plenty of room for implications on lots of stuff.

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@The Laughing God.

Flicking through this months white dwarf, I saw a little snippit of infomation, that if memory serves, suggested that Dead stars would be released next month.

Ofcause, white dwarf has never had a great history with such predictions, a matter not helped by Fantasy Flight being above averagely bad at up dating us on what is in the pipe line, I guess the answer is haven't the foggiest, but maybe soon.

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 By the EMPEROR!

I was just (re)reading the radicals handbook and stumbled upon an Istvaanian conspiracy about the Hyades Locks. Apparently, there are these things called Hyades Locks that are referenced in propheticum hereticus tenebre that are "great locks to the portals through which all shall pass to endless sleep, held fast by ages and secured by the key." Furthermore, it says that the "key [was] once held by the herald." 

This is quite clearly the key in the House of Dust and Ash that has the inscription "show me the portals of sleep" (or whatever). 

These "Hyades Locks" add a new dimension to the Tyrant Star. They must be related in some way since they are mentioned in the prophecy. Also, the Istvaanians believe that opening these locks will destroy the worlds on which they rest. 

Speculation: the Hyades locks are constructions that keep the 7 at bay. 

Ideas anyone?

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uh...yeah already said taht earlier look for a thread called "key to the sector" and adapt for the tyrant star, not meaning to steal your thunder or anything

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 ****... I knew it wasn't possible that I was the first person to see this. 

There isn't any way to delete posts is there?

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its ok, i thought i was the only one that put that connection together in the first place

everyone else shot it down as easter egg of lovecraft lore, its nice to have a fellow commrade in the conspiracy heh

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ThenDoctor said:

 

its ok, i thought i was the only one that put that connection together in the first place

everyone else shot it down as easter egg of lovecraft lore, its nice to have a fellow commrade in the conspiracy heh

 

 

Well, it is an easter-egg of Lovecraftian lore. That being said, it doesn't preclude it from being something more or the first hint or allegory to something more. There is, after all, little reason that the writers wouldn't develop it further if their imaginations were so inclined. Taking something from anouther source and at once planting it as an obvious reference and developing it into something else is nature and birth of 40k after all. ;-)

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Logister said:

 ****... I knew it wasn't possible that I was the first person to see this. 

There isn't any way to posts is there?

It's also in the opening post of this thread but don't worry, this thread is meant for speculations and wild associations so it's better to share ideas too quickly than not at all.

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Xisor said:

 Timeline, chronology, order and even 'nature' need not make uniform sense with regards to warp creatures. Whilst Khorne abhors sorcery, I fully relish the idea of unleashing a psyker-power-wielding bloodletter. Why not? The warp is an inexplicable place, it's 'apparent order' doesn't need to be held to, merely the sense of setting preserved.

As long as things 'don't make sense' but still work in the setting, I'm good with that.

Hmm I agree that the Warp and everything it spawns can (and should be) unexpected, contradictory and inexplicable, but I do like there to be a certain 'theme' to the fluff that should be preserved. For example, if Necrons fluff-wise abhor the Warp and cannot channel it like the psykers of many other races can, I don't want to see a Necron psyker suddenly pop up in adventures, stories or my own campaign. Same with the Bloodletter with psyker powers. If fluff-wise Khorne's whole nature is opposed to witchery and sorcery and he detests it, IMHO it does not make sense to write psychic Bloodletters into a campaign.

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Btw what to think about the Haarlock 'Dark Traveller' returning being the first and/or the last ... can we speculate some more about that ..

is Erasmus the same person as Solomon, is Erasmus in some manner inhabited or possessed by the spirit of Solomon or did Erasmus so bungle up the time space continuum that the last became the first in time?

Curious to your opinions!

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The Laughing God said:

is Erasmus the same person as Solomon, is Erasmus in some manner inhabited or possessed by the spirit of Solomon or did Erasmus so bungle up the time space continuum that the last became the first in time?

   The old "you are your own grandfather"- paradox? Now that would be really twisted gui%C3%B1o.gif.

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The Laughing God said:

Btw what to think about the Haarlock 'Dark Traveller' returning being the first and/or the last ... can we speculate some more about that ..

is Erasmus the same person as Solomon, is Erasmus in some manner inhabited or possessed by the spirit of Solomon or did Erasmus so bungle up the time space continuum that the last became the first in time?

Curious to your opinions!

I'm assuming first and last Haarlock refers to Warrant holders. If that's the case, I don't see how that could involve Solomon as he wasn't the first Haarlock to hold the Warrant and he certainly wasn't the last. He was something closer to the great-great grandchild of the first.

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The Laughing God said:

who, then, was the first Haarlock rogue trader?

Free Captian Mordercai Haarlock was the first to hold the Haarlock Warrant granted to him by Sebatian Thor in 395.M36 for his valliant assistance and efforts in fighting the apostate fleats of Goge Vandire.  Solomon came around about 300 years latter and discovered the Calyx Expanse.

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Graver said:

If this post is lacking in the letter "H", I apologize. The "H" is going out on my keyboard and rarely catches now.
 

te Aarlock Warrant, ten?

:)

 

 

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