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Sulfurious

Better to go first or second?

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After playing a couple of games and watching a few battle reports, it seems like going first has a hefty disadvantage when it comes to initiatives.  Not much of anything makes it into combat on the first turn so it's usually the second turn where things start to matter.

And since most 200pt armies are only 4-5 units, the second player also gets to react to the first players deployment.

Besides getting to deploy the majority of the terrain, what are the advantages to going first? 

Edited by Sulfurious

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With the way that first player rotates and different units having different initiatives for their actions, being first player in any given round might be a good or a bad thing depending on board state and what actions units want to take. 

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8 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

With the way that first player rotates and different units having different initiatives for their actions, being first player in any given round might be a good or a bad thing depending on board state and what actions units want to take. 

I guess I was referring to the first player on turn 1. 

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starting with the player who chose the deployment card, the players take turns choosing pieces of set-aside terrain and placing them on the play area until all of them have been placed.

First player has the advantage of first pick during the Choose Deployment and Objective step. But unless they chose the deployment card, they don't get to place terrain first.

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8 minutes ago, Sulfurious said:

I guess I was referring to the first player on turn 1. 

Even on the first turn there is only a disadvantage to first in particular situations based on the board state and actions. If you've got units like Reanimated Archers then you probably want to be the second player on turn two. 

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I kind of support what the OP is saying. I've been playing Waiqar and have started to notice that going first means I have a rough 2nd turn which could have been mitigated by having initiative. 

But it picking terrain first is huge and has swung me a number of games. 

So swings and roundabouts. Sign of a balanced game. 

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I like going second generally, for two reasons.

1.) They have to deploy the first unit.

2.) I have initiative on the final round. This round has been particularly decisive in my games, and few games have ended before round 8.

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Turn 1 i actually prefer to not go first, because that means my opponent has priority on some charges for turn 2; forcing me to either bet he was charging me and dial a slow attack or that he is trying to psych me out and opt to not charge me so i waste a turn while archers shoot me.

Cavalry typically gets the charge over anyone except ardus, who usually is same init depending on range. Spearmen not so much it feels like, and golems of course depend on runes.

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As a waiqar I try to make 150 points lists, because I find very negative to go first.

The second player has a wide advantage on second turn and can (if lucky) get some charges in the flanks on turn  one

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15 hours ago, druchii7 said:

As a waiqar I try to make 150 points lists, because I find very negative to go first.

150 seems like it is pretty badly hamstrung. That is a whole unit with upgrades.

Edited by Tvayumat

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To everyone who prefers second player, I think it's a mistake to underestimate the importance of getting first pick of the objective and deployment cards. As Thornoo1 said, terrain placement can have a huge effect on the outcome of the game. Some of the objective token bonuses are absolutely massive and can single-handedly win you the game.

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2 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

To everyone who prefers second player, I think it's a mistake to underestimate the importance of getting first pick of the objective and deployment cards. As Thornoo1 said, terrain placement can have a huge effect on the outcome of the game. Some of the objective token bonuses are absolutely massive and can single-handedly win you the game.

Nobody is underestimating the advantage of getting your pick of the objectives/deployments, they're measuring that against the advantage of having initiative on decisive turns and forcing the opponent to commit to unit deployment first, both of which can have equally huge effects.

Personally, I don't worry too much about objective/deployment pick. I've been on the losing end of Unprepared enough times to know how to play around it, same with most of the objective picks. About the only objective I really loathe is Confluence of Magic.

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Bulk of the issue with picking the deployment/mission first is you have to have knowledge of a lot more than you may see on the surface.

The deployments offered may make this particular objective a royal pain in the butt, but make this other easily abused. For instance, the objective where each player places 4 tokens at range 1-2 of their opponent's board edge was REALLY ANNOYING when were playing on the corners since it made me basically go away from my opponent's forces to get the objective tokens. It actually benefited him because he had 3 2x1 archer units so while i had the units capable of getting back in the fight fast enough, it was slow enough for him to position properly and i got hosed lol

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On 6/5/2017 at 10:03 PM, Waywardpaladin said:

Can always just sit there and spend a round of rallying to cache Inspiration :P

I once played a game of Armada where a guy literally sat there at speed 0 in opposing corners of the deployment zone and dared me to come at him.  I also slowed to speed 0 and at round 5 (of 6) reminded him that if players tie the second player (me in this case) wins.

He threw a fit and I had to try soooo hard not to laugh.  He built his whole fleet on the basis of delaying and playing defensively, and ended up losing because of it.

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8 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Spotted the Daqan player ;)

With the upgrade to spend Inspiration for Mortal Strikes I've been wondering when there will be an effective build to just generate tokens ASAP and then drop a big alpha strike on enemy heroes or siege units.

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57 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

With the upgrade to spend Inspiration for Mortal Strikes I've been wondering when there will be an effective build to just generate tokens ASAP and then drop a big alpha strike on enemy heroes or siege units.

When Lord Hawthorne comes out and you can get 2 a turn.

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On 6/5/2017 at 3:48 AM, druchii7 said:

I meant 150 if the game is 150 point limit. There are still no 200 points tournaments here. Then I will try to make round 200 points units.

How does that work?  Maxing out your army does not guarantee your selection, it gives your opponent the choice.

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We just play 150 points tournaments to encourage beginners to participate. Here in Spain the releases are launched 1 or 2 weeks later. You find it hard to play a decent center + decent units on flanks, but aside from that it's not too different 

Edited by druchii7

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