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New "Guns for Hire" Pack Announced

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If a ship is overcosted then yes it should have a reduction title...X7, Light Syck, StarViper MkII, these are imaginative, you know what isn't imaginative? Chardaan refit...-2 and that's it.

Yes not being imaginative is a problem as you say...but so is discounting an idea just because it's similar to another idea. Plus it fits the K fighters lore while giving it great options with the possibility of overinvesting in a ship that may pop quickly.

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17 minutes ago, Odanan said:

Sure, let's base the cost balance of the old ships in a few Scum ships released recently (Jumpmaster, Protectorate, Lancer...). -2, -3 titles for everyone! Wouldn't it be easier to increase the cost (by FAQ) of some OP ships?

I'm not saying the StarViper and the Kihraxz didn't need a help, but the way FFG is fixing them is unimaginative, poor designed and just add to the balance problem.

What now? TIE/in and E-Wing titles with -3 cost? X-Wing with -2?

I think this was very unexpected buff for Kihraxz and I would say it was way more imaginative than anything else in this forum has been. It opens up very diverse options and tactics for them. 

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8 minutes ago, Ebak said:

If a ship is overcosted then yes it should have a reduction title...X7, Light Syck, StarViper MkII, these are imaginative, you know what isn't imaginative? Chardaan refit...-2 and that's it.

Yes not being imaginative is a problem as you say...but so is discounting an idea just because it's similar to another idea. Plus it fits the K fighters lore while giving it great options with the possibility of overinvesting in a ship that may pop quickly.

But chardan was released at the same time as proton rockets. So that really gave the A-wing player 2 great options for what do do with the torp slot. I think that was actually really clever. As are .X7, Light Syck and the StarViper MkII

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8 minutes ago, Ebak said:

 Chardaan refit...-2 and that's it.

You can't look at Chardaan by itself. For everything other than the Prototype, the fix was really Chardaan+A-Wing Test Pilot.  Chardaan put the Protoype exactly where it needed to be to fill the role of an inexpensive blocker. For the other A-Wings the cost reduction by itself wouldn't have been enough in most cases. I see Chardaan not even being taken on Jake and Tycho because they like the bust damage from Proton Rockets too much.  

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I find it interesting that no one talks about the StarViper title at all.  No thoughts?   Will a 24 pt Black Sun Vigo be worth taking?   What about a 22 pt Black Sun Enforcer?   Is it better than a cheap Fang Fighter?  It's 2 pts more than Zealous Recruit.  You get a Shield for it.  The dials are....different.  Most will probably say the Fang Fighter has a better dial for the speed 2 Greens, but the Viper can do speed 1 moves.  

Edited by heychadwick

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Well no surprises as far as model selection, with the Scyk in the C-ROC those are the only 2 ships that desperately need help. Hopefully this closes the gap between the big 4 (Jumpmasters, Protectorates, Y-wings, HWKs) and all the other scum ships.

However again nothing for Imperials which is currently the weakest primary faction in the game.  But considering this is a Scum special release (and the 1st one not having anything to do with Epic) nothing is really there to help the Imperials out.

However a question on overcorrecting:

swx73-vaksai.png

A non-unique title that is Royal Guard Pilot on steroids with no drawbacks and 0 points, aka the 0 point auto-include (I already expressed my opinions on such titles). Fortunately there is not a lot of upgrades that the Kihrax can take that is only 1 point and only 1 modification available at 1 point so you are not going to see 5 tricked out Klingons out there. But I will say this isn't that well future proof. a sinlge 1 point upgrade such as a modification, will push this beyond JM5Ks.

swx73-starviper-mk-ii.png

Being able to add the own title slot does get around the problem that the Star Viper already has a good one. But wow -3 points? The downside is you have to do a Stress free Lt. Lorr barrel roll. Again though didn't we just had to go through a nerf for a title upgrade with a negative point cost?

swx73-viktor-hel.png

As for the one pilot nothing much else to see. Well there are those unknown ships in the background which could be a clue for Wave 12 but really a Pilot skill 7 Klingon (VI and you can have two 9 skill Klingons).  Ability is alright, it is better than Graz the Hunter (who desperately needs an EPT slot for Fearlessness) . Still the EPT slot is the most attractive thing on this pilot card.

So Scum finally get their Aces equivalent pack. I don't know what we call them since Aces is likely not going to be the word used on any more of these alternative paint scheme expansion packs. Well between that the Wave 12 announcement and the Episode 8 releases, there is a lot of new ships coming, and the meta is in need of a good shake up.

Edited by Marinealver

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1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

A non-unique title that is Royal Guard Pilot on steroids with no drawbacks and 0 points, aka you are going to be seeing this everywhere. Fortunately there is not a lot of upgrades that the Kihrax can take that is only 1 point and only 1 modification available at 1 point so you are not going to see 5 tricked out Klingons out there. But I will say this isn't that well future proof. a sinlge 1 point upgrade such as a modification, will push this beyond JM5Ks.

Sure it's royal guard on steroids, but the kihraxz needs more help than the interceptor did.  And you can absolutlely see 5 tricked out kihraxz.  Thread Tracers, slicer tools (or dampeners), guidance chips and munitions failure is 4 free upgrades that you can run on 5 kihraxz.  First one to fire uses tracers  if he hits, the rest are shooting with TL/focus, if he misses, he keeps the tracers for the next time.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

swx73-starviper-mk-ii.png

Being able to add the own title slot does get around the problem that there already is a title. But wow -3 points? The downside is you have to do a Stress free Lt. Lorr barrel roll. Again though didn't we just had to go through a nerf for a title upgrade with a negative point cost?

The negative point cost on the defender wasn't the problem.  It was the guaranteed evade that your opponent couldn't play around in any way.  This doesn't do that.  And the starviper was WAY overcosted.  The only reason I'm satisfied with the -3 is because the bank barrel roll opens up some really fun possibilities.

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6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

However a question on overcorrecting:

swx73-vaksai.png

A non-unique title that is Royal Guard Pilot on steroids with no drawbacks and 0 points, aka you are going to be seeing this everywhere. Fortunately there is not a lot of upgrades that the Kihrax can take that is only 1 point and only 1 modification available at 1 point so you are not going to see 5 tricked out Klingons out there. But I will say this isn't that well future proof. a sinlge 1 point upgrade such as a modification, will push this beyond JM5Ks.

swx73-starviper-mk-ii.png

Being able to add the own title slot does get around the problem that there already is a title. But wow -3 points? The downside is you have to do a Stress free Lt. Lorr barrel roll. Again though didn't we just had to go through a nerf for a title upgrade with a negative point cost?

Here's a question.....do you think that there are many Kihraxz Fighter builds with the new title that make the ship OP or "broken"?  Yes, they get a discount on the upgrades, but is there anything that really puts one of those ships just.....beyond the pale on power level?

 

Now, for the StarViper MKII....yes, there was the /X7 title that was nerfed, but it wasn't just a point reduction.   It also gave you a free Evade token.  This title, though......is it OP?  Does it do anything that makes any of those ships over powered?    If you look at the PS 1 StarViper (with title) and compare it to the PS 1 Fang Fighter....which ship do you think people will want to use?  

I actually see the swoop Barrel Roll as a problem for Xizor and when he wants to fly with 5 Z-95's.  He will have a  hard time using it then.  

Edited by heychadwick

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13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I find it interesting that no one talks about the StarViper title at all.  No thoughts?   Will a 24 pt Black Sun Vigo be worth taking?   What about a 22 pt Black Sun Enforcer?   Is it better than a cheap Fang Fighter?  It's 2 pts more than Zealous Recruit.  You get a Shield for it.  The dials are....different.  Most will probably say the Fang Fighter has a better dial for the speed 2 Greens, but the Viper can do speed 2 moves.  

It lets you get autothrusters "for free", which ain't nothing.  Four autothruster Black Sun Enforcers, one of them the Virago with a Collision Detector and, say, Glitterstim?  I dunno, it's something...

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I was just thinking outside the box and, maybe FFG missed a wonderful game-space opprotunity. What if they actually were "guns for hire"? So any faction could insist one or more of these in a squad? I know one thing, they're would be no b****ing.

...maybe @heychadwick can come up with a mission where factions hire out Scum to perform a dangerous and unsavory task.

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7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Sure it's royal guard on steroids, but the kihraxz needs more help than the interceptor did.  And you can absolutlely see 5 tricked out kihraxz.  Thread Tracers, slicer tools (or dampeners), guidance chips and munitions failure is 4 free upgrades that you can run on 5 kihraxz.  First one to fire uses tracers  if he hits, the rest are shooting with TL/focus, if he misses, he keeps the tracers for the next time.

The negative point cost on the defender wasn't the problem.  It was the guaranteed evade that your opponent couldn't play around in any way.  This doesn't do that.  And the starviper was WAY overcosted.  The only reason I'm satisfied with the -3 is because the bank barrel roll opens up some really fun possibilities.

 

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Here's a question.....do you think that there are many Kihraxz Fighter builds with the new title that make the ship OP or "broken"?  Yes, they get a discount on the upgrades, but is there anything that really puts one of those ships just.....beyond the pale on power level?

 

Now, for the StarViper MKII....yes, there was the /X7 title that was nerfed, but it wasn't just a point reduction.   It also gave you a free Evade token.  This title, though......is it OP?  Does it do anything that makes any of those ships over powered?    If you look at the PS 1 StarViper (with title) and compare it to the PS 1 Fang Fighter....which ship do you think people will want to use?  

I actually see the swoop Barrel Roll as a problem for Xizor and when he wants to fly with 5 Z-95's.  He will have a  hard time using it then.  

To answer both posts as of now no, I don't think with this title there are that many 5 Klingon Birds of Prey builds that would be broken. My only concern is again with future releases. Out of the two I actually like the Star Viper title the best. Not because I think it is better than the Kihrax one (I think that is the most powerful of the two) but because while the drawback isn't really a complete negative, it is one that can be utilized by a skilled player and only a draw back for an inexperienced player. IMHO a -2 point would have been perfect but it is now a -3 point so there we go. If it needs to be corrected, well FFG could always make that tournament tax list.

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6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It lets you get autothrusters "for free", which ain't nothing.  Four autothruster Black Sun Enforcers, one of them the Virago with a Collision Detector and, say, Glitterstim?  I dunno, it's something...

Can't tkae the virago title on anything ps3 or lower, so no title on the enforcer.  The new PS5 generic could take the title at least.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

To answer both posts as of now no, I don't think with this title there are that many 5 Klingon Birds of Prey builds that would be broken. My only concern is again with future releases. Out of the two I actually like the Star Viper title the best. Not because I think it is better than the Kihrax one (I think that is the most powerful of the two) but because while the drawback isn't really a complete negative, it is one that can be utilized by a skilled player and only a draw back for an inexperienced player. IMHO a -2 point would have been perfect but it is now a -3 point so there we go. If it needs to be corrected, well FFG could always make that tournament tax list.

At -2 points the starviper would still be too overcosted to see any play (outside of possibly guri, who sees some anyway) unless they gave it a buff at the same time similar to how x7 did.  The bank boost can be an upside or a downside depending on the situation, but is certainly not enough to only reduce the cost by 2 points.

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

...

At -2 points the starviper would still be too overcosted to see any play (outside of possibly guri, who sees some anyway) unless they gave it a buff at the same time similar to how x7 did.  The bank boost can be an upside or a downside depending on the situation, but is certainly not enough to only reduce the cost by 2 points.

So your saying the Star Viper should have been a 22 point cost ship?:huh:

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4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

So your saying the Star Viper should have been a 22 point cost ship?:huh:

I'm saying the starviper should have been 21 points.  At most.  Protectorate is practically identical if you compare the generics.  PS1 protectorate the only differences from the viper are -1 shield and a better dial on the protectorate.  And the fang gets the title, which if you trigger a single time is as good as the missing shield.  If you trigger it multiple times, it's better.   And the protecotrate generics are about 1 pt overcosted themselves.

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Good to see these two ships getting fixes.

 

I think the Vaksai title probably should have been 1 point itself to prevent some of the crazy 0/1 point upgrade spam posted here.  I know the X-Wing is pretty horrendously overcosted etc. but seriously, making the Cartel Marauder cost 21 points (instead of 20) to get its goodies would still make it a great list filler while preventing 5xBMST/Tracers/Chips/Failsafe shenanigans.  That just seems a little... much.

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Just now, RampancyTW said:

Good to see these two ships getting fixes.

 

I think the Vaksai title probably should have been 1 point itself to prevent some of the crazy 0/1 point upgrade spam posted here.  I know the X-Wing is pretty horrendously overcosted etc. but seriously, making the Cartel Marauder cost 21 points (instead of 20) to get its goodies would still make it a great list filler while preventing 5xBMST/Tracers/Chips/Failsafe shenanigans.  That just seems a little... much.

If vaksai was one point, it would have still costed the exact same upon equipping

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11 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm saying the starviper should have been 21 points.  At most.  Protectorate is practically identical if you compare the generics.  PS1 protectorate the only differences from the viper are -1 shield and a better dial on the protectorate.  And the fang gets the title, which if you trigger a single time is as good as the missing shield.  If you trigger it multiple times, it's better.   And the protecotrate generics are about 1 pt overcosted themselves.

There needs to be some point disparity between the ships. You can't have every ship in the 20-22 point range. But I do agree that many ships above the 25 point range don't bring enough to the table to justify their point cost. But 20 points for essentially an E-wing? Nah.

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26 minutes ago, xanderf said:

It lets you get autothrusters "for free", which ain't nothing.  Four autothruster Black Sun Enforcers, one of them the Virago with a Collision Detector and, say, Glitterstim?  I dunno, it's something...

I'm not saying it sucks, but I can't see it as "free" auto thrusters.  I see it as the base cost of the StarViper as being -3 pts.  I think it's OK, but I'm not sure on 4 x Enforcers.  I could be wrong, but it would be nice to see.   Overall, I think it's good, but I don't think it's BROKEN.   

 

24 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...maybe @heychadwick can come up with a mission where factions hire out Scum to perform a dangerous and unsavory task.

@Babaganoosh is better with missions, but he did make "Honor Among Thieves", which I really like.  

23 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

To answer both posts as of now no, I don't think with this title there are that many 5 Klingon Birds of Prey builds that would be broken. My only concern is again with future releases. Out of the two I actually like the Star Viper title the best. Not because I think it is better than the Kihrax one (I think that is the most powerful of the two) but because while the drawback isn't really a complete negative, it is one that can be utilized by a skilled player and only a draw back for an inexperienced player. IMHO a -2 point would have been perfect but it is now a -3 point so there we go. If it needs to be corrected, well FFG could always make that tournament tax list.

I'm glad you don't see it as broken.  I don't think it's broken.    I'm especially thinking of the Kihraxz.  You need to put a lot of points into it to make it really "exceptional".  That's still points to drop into it.   I think it can make them competitive, but it doesn't make them broken.  

I think both of these ships with titles need to be compared to the Fang Fighter and viewed through that lense.  

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