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Brunas

Carolina Krayts Episode 15, but more importantly, let's look at how terrible synced turret is

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18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Y wing and HWK sure, but the K Wing?  The K wing is fine.

The K-wing is a 2 attack 1 agility 9 hitpoint ship with one of the most limited dials in the game, and no EPT slot.
A 2 dice primary turret only does so much and it was by itself, at the time of release, much worse than a 22 point B-wing. K-wings were only effective if carrying a TLT (that still made it a 29 points ship).

Later, the introduction of Sabine crew made them also viable with just bombs. And Guidance Chips made Miranda viable with missiles.

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17 minutes ago, SOTL said:


That's a really terrible bit of reasoning.  If anything it's the perfect time to nerf it, because we'll be seeing it used even more often.

So in your opinion it's fair that all the other factions have had the normal version but Imperials should not?

We have dramatically different views on what's fair.

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Syncd Turret ignores Biggs* and follows the newer FFG trend of being a turret that rewards the player for keeping the target in-arc (similar to Rey, Dengar) therefore is the best turret evar.

The OP's breakdown simply shows that TLT is unbalanced and is the problem child of turret upgrades.

PS. If you are afraid that your list will run into PS issues getting target locks, there are about a million ways of fixing that these days (Upsilon Coordinate, Ahsoka, Targeting Synchronizer, System Officer, etc., etc.)

 

*Seriously, **** Biggs. 

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8 hours ago, Brunas said:

So, I'll go ahead and copy the episode description in here and the link to it, but this thread is mostly to contain a discussion I'd like to have about synced turret, and by proxy TLT.  

 

Also, standard language/content disclaimers here.

http://carolinakrayts.libsyn.com/episode-15-trespass

Ben, Chris, Tyler, THE Zack Mathews, and Travis "The Johnson" Johnson join long time fans of the show Paul Heaver and Ricky White of Scum and Villainy who call in to talk shop, including:

  • Just how bad is Synced Turret? (Spoiler Alert, really, really, really bad)
  • Tyler losing to a Firespray
  • Is XWing over? Should we all pack up and go home?
  • Why are the forums so bad?
  • How should we analyze the worlds meta?
  • Seriously, just how bad is Synced Turret?
  • And a whole lot more...

"Actual content" starts at about 45 minutes!

Carolina KRAYTS Facebook community:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/carolinakrayts

 

Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i9_TDs91p_enynaPBpiJ6O2LQK2oDq_PDX6cgNf5YBA

Stats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GslirLswQPdjT9hPmmFJ_5LEBR1A7QcoOLeDdbO60RM/

 

Now, for the actual discussion I'm so down on Synced Turret being such unbelievable garbage that I would love to be convinced otherwise.  Actually, I'd like to be convinced that FFG could ever print a turret that is moderately fair and compete with TLT.  In the show I mentioned just making up a range 1-2 turret that we would even consider playing over TLT, which we arbitrarily decided on this as an "overpowered" turret:
 


Very-Synced Turret

When attacking, you may reroll all attack dice.

3 attack dice, range 1-2.  4 points.

Way better than synced turret, right?  I might even consider taking it over TLT!  No target lock requirement, no arc reroll requirement!  2 points cheaper than TLT!  My question is, would you even play this over TLT?  Here's the quick breakdown for what damage you should expect against different 0-3 agility ships with a focus, and a focus/evade.  This is assuming the turret has a focus to spend on offense. (All done with http://xwingcalculator.x10host.com/diceuilm.html)


Very-Synced Turret

Attacker, Defender focus
0 agility 2.8 damage
1 agility 2.18 damage
2 agility 1.56 damage
3 agility 0.98 damage

Attacker focus, Defender focus/evade
0 agility 1.81 damage
1 agility 1.19 damage
2 agility .64 damage
3 agility .31 damage

Twin Laser Turret

Attacker, Defender focus
0 agi 1.9 damage
1 agi 1.6 damage
2 agi 1.3 damage
3 agi .90 damage

Attacker focus, Defender focus/evade
0 agi 1.76 damage
1 agi 1.31 damage
2 agi .81 damage
3 agi .45 damage

You'll notice those numbers are... not very different.  You might be thinking you're getting a bargain getting a turret that does slightly more damage than TLT for 2 points cheaper!

Except, TLT is range 2-3, and this turret is range 1-2.  This doesn't seem like a massive difference, but range 1-2 is about 98.5 ship bases, and range 2-3 is about 177.1 ship bases.  The TLT firing area is almost twice the size of every other turret.  

I did the math for these by hand, so my apologies if they're a little off!  Any corrections would be appreciated.  I was lazy, so the area of the arc calculations include the part of the arc on the ship base for the small/large base arcs, which is not area you could actually shoot at.


Turrets
Range 1 Band: 29.63 Ship Bases
Range 2 Band: 68.91 Ship Bases
Range 3 Band: 108.17 Ship Bases
Range 1-2 Turret: 98.5 ship bases
Range 2-3 Turret: 177.08 ship bases

Standard Arcs
Range 1-3 standard small base arc: 40.6 ship bases
Range 1-3 standard large base arc: 57.3 ship bases

Don't forget, TLT has the advantage that for the largest range band, 3, it gets a defensive bonus, while when something with a range 1-2 turret is trading shots it is at best equal at range 2 for combat bonuses, but often at range 1 where it has no bonus but has an additional die being rolled at it.

Also, while our new turret may look much cheaper than TLT as it's 50% more for the actual upgrade card, it's not like you can take the thing by itself.  The cheapest platform would be a HWK, so running at 20 points (16 base, 4 turret).  A TLT HWK is 22, so in actuality the largest possible difference in price for a TLT is 10%.  I honestly don't think this fabricated turret would see competitive play at 4 points - the most obvious abuse would be 5 HWKs with it which wouldn't stand a chance in the current meta.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think the TLT damage output and firing area is reasonable, and FFG is clearly unable to print a turret that isn't complete *** ever again because of it.  What madness would they have to make to even compete with TLT?  Honestly, I think the only reason TLT didn't complete end the game was autothrusters existing, but you shouldn't be required to hard counter a single upgrade to be able to have a competitive list!  Also, TLTs are currently being suppressed by all the torp scouts out there, but if they were ever nerfed or fell out of favor, let's not pretend there isn't another boogeyman right behind them...

 

Please, if you disagree or have corrections, or ideas for turrets that are moderately fair and good FFG could make, let's start a conversation!  I'll consolidate the best of the arguments for/against for next week and let's see if anyone can talk me off the cliff :)

One way to step back from the edge is to quit listening to these guys. My head and ears hurt after 20 minutes. That was after jumping to the 45 minute mark.

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5 hours ago, Flaren48 said:

Can you do the math with Synced Turret and Deadeye?

 

3 hours ago, Elavion said:

I really cannot comprehend what led to the creation of synced turret. it's essentially unusable.

 

Low PS carriers suffer from the ordnance syndrome- you need to get close to get the TL, so higher PS ships are likely to get a round of fire on you before you can even use your turret.

 

For high PS pilots it's really hard to justify not paying 2 extra points for a TLT. And pilots like Miranda carry ordnance to benefit from said TL anyway.

 

You theorethically could use deadeye to avoid the TL requirement, but then you're only 1 point away from TLT.

 

Can't really do equivalent math on actual synced turret with or without deadeye, because you'd have to come up with a percentage of the time you think you'll have your target in arc at range 1-2.  It's far, far worse than the made up turret stats, especial since if you get blocked you don't get to shoot.

 

3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

IMO that's not a problem that would be solved by nerfing TLT.

 

Other turrets are pretty bad IMO so,if you nerf TLT, what's going to make people run other turrets instead of no longer running turrets altogether?

If you nerf TLT, the turret slot becomes entirely pointless.  TLTs currently aren't really run because of autothrusters, and every other turret is even worse against them.

 

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11 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

One way to step back from the edge is to quit listening to these guys. My head and ears hurt after 20 minutes. That was after jumping to the 45 minute mark.

I'm so sorry. Your lack of a sense of humor must really make it hard to enjoy anything...

Edit: Not that I would ever listen to this podcast.

Edited by TheMinions
for the lols

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12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

TLTs currently aren't really run because of autothrusters, and every other turret is even worse against them.

Autothrusters don't do anything against Syncd Turret at range 1-2 in-arc which is where you are trying to be with them because that is where they function best. Sure, if you didn't manage to get arc, you can still shoot at them, and they can still try to evade with AT, but if you are using them as intended, they do not get AT and you get re-rolls.  

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1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Autothrusters don't do anything against Syncd Turret at range 1-2 in-arc which is where you are trying to be with them because that is where they function best. Sure, if you didn't manage to get arc, you can still shoot at them, and they can still try to evade with AT, but if you are using them as intended, they do not get AT and you get re-rolls.  

If you're firing range 1-2 in arc, why bother using a turret?  Outside of the example you gave with btl'd ywings it's completely pointless, whereas your ywings are going to struggle to hit things that can take autothrusters, even with the free rerolls.  I  can post the stats when I get a chance later.

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3 hours ago, SOTL said:

Dorsal, Synced and Ion Turrets are actually all pretty well costed, they only look 'pretty bad' by comparison to the benchmark of TLT.

I think this is the real key here. TLT isn't OP in the sense that it ruins the overall game balance- it's OP compared to all other turret options. Either all other turrets need a buff or TLT needs a nerf, but to just completely dominate the turret slot without any real competition isn't good for the game.

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5 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

I think this is the real key here. TLT isn't OP in the sense that it ruins the overall game balance- it's OP compared to all other turret options. Either all other turrets need a buff or TLT needs a nerf, but to just completely dominate the turret slot without any real competition isn't good for the game.

If anyone is interested, we covered TLT's cost (and whether it's overpowered, or simply dominant design) in episode 2.5 of our Listener Series: Well Paul said bombs are fine, so I guess bombs are fine.


http://carolinakrayts.libsyn.com/podcast/listener-two-point-five-well-paul-said-bombs-are-fine-so-i-guess-bombs-are-fine

 

Edit: Adding the additional Listener Series:

Listener One: A Carolina KRAYTS Story - http://carolinakrayts.libsyn.com/podcast/listener-one-a-carolina-krayts-story

Listener Two: A Paul Heaver Story - http://carolinakrayts.libsyn.com/podcast/listener-two-a-paul-heaver-story

Edited by Tlfj200

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2 hours ago, SOTL said:

Stop looking at the game through a small minded faction-led viewpoint.

Are you trying to justify unfairness with that? Sorry, doesn't work.

And judging from your posts, you're very often attacking anything Imperial related. How's that for small-mindedness?

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18 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

I think this is the real key here. TLT isn't OP in the sense that it ruins the overall game balance- it's OP compared to all other turret options. Either all other turrets need a buff or TLT needs a nerf, but to just completely dominate the turret slot without any real competition isn't good for the game.

While TLT wasn't solely responsible, it kind of did invalidate similarly costed generic ships that require an arc to shoot.

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

 


 

If you nerf TLT, the turret slot becomes entirely pointless.  TLTs currently aren't really run because of autothrusters, and every other turret is even worse against them.

 

These are my thoughts as well. With TLT nerfs the only ships with a turret that'd I'd still consider worth running would be Stresshog and ABT builds. 

 

Apart from that I simply can't think of a situation where you'd have a ship with Blaster/Dorsal/Synced/Ion turret and your list wouldn't be made better by replacing it with something else.

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56 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If you're firing range 1-2 in arc, why bother using a turret?  Outside of the example you gave with btl'd ywings it's completely pointless, whereas your ywings are going to struggle to hit things that can take autothrusters, even with the free rerolls.  I  can post the stats when I get a chance later.

... what? 

At Range 1-2 in arc, if you have a turret that can shoot at that range, it will always be better, or at the very least equivalent, to use any turret attack, outside of the corner case of wanting the potential to do 2 damage instead of 1+ion. (Against an autothrusters-equipped ship, the ion will occasionally be more valuable, but dead>ionized)

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

If you're firing range 1-2 in arc, why bother using a turret?

Options.

Many turret upgrade ships are 2 die primary. The Syncd will give you 3 dice, which your primary will match at range 1 in arc, however, you get re-rolls without having to spend your TL. If requiring the TL to begin with is worth it to you or not is another question. Otherwise, the Syncd turret is superior at range 2. This is all even more so if you are using the various HWK flavors as a support ship. Outside of that, you still have the option of shooting 360 degree if you are unable to get arc on your target, and not everything flown has AT, which means it is still an effective weapon compared to not having a turret.

Not everything is a best/worst case scenario.

Edited by kris40k

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4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Apart from that I simply can't think of a situation where you'd have a ship with Blaster/Dorsal/Synced/Ion turret and your list wouldn't be made better by replacing it with something else.

Ghost with ICT + Phantom is a pretty solid skeleton for a control piece as it can reliably ionize one large ship or 2 small low-AGI ships, and thereby does a good job of setting up its own shots for its 4 die primary, front or aux. 

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3 hours ago, kris40k said:

Options.

Many turret upgrade ships are 2 die primary. The Syncd will give you 3 dice, which your primary will match at range 1 in arc, however, you get re-rolls without having to spend your TL. If requiring the TL to begin with is worth it to you or not is another question. Otherwise, the Syncd turret is superior at range 2. This is all even more so if you are using the various HWK flavors as a support ship. Outside of that, you still have the option of shooting 360 degree if you are unable to get arc on your target, and not everything flown has AT, which means it is still an effective weapon compared to not having a turret.

Not everything is a best/worst case scenario.

Sure, you get the option of firing and getting free rerolls, but there are much cheaper ways to get three dice with rerolls at range 1-2 in arc.  If you want options for having things that are better than using your turret, the competition for being worth the cost is like firing torpedos instead of your turret, like jumpmasters for about 5 more points than any synced turret carrier without munitions.

For example, a sync'd turret Y-Wing is 22 points with no other upgrades.

You can take a jumpmaster with plasma torpedos and get the same damage output as the synced turret at range 1, or far more if you're successful getting things in arc at ranges 2-3.  For 28 points with chips instead of 22, or more likely 31 for mindlink and extra munitions.

 

Just having a turret slot on a ship is expensive, you're expected to fill it and frankly none of the turrets not named TLT are even worth considering as far as I can tell.

 

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I was one of those players that predicted that TIE/D was way more important than x7.  I was wrong.  In my defense, and the defense of the other players who advocated /D, I was basing this off the wave 7 meta, and Deadeye Scouts hadn't hit yet.  TIE/Ds are great in a high-defense, modest attack meta, but we haven't seen that since Deadeye Scouts hit.  Although to be fair, they're still pretty sweet.  I even heard that one time somebody beat The Zack Matthews with a couple TIE/Ds when he was running a janky Mindlink list.

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50 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I was one of those players that predicted that TIE/D was way more important than x7.  I was wrong.  In my defense, and the defense of the other players who advocated /D, I was basing this off the wave 7 meta, and Deadeye Scouts hadn't hit yet.  TIE/Ds are great in a high-defense, modest attack meta, but we haven't seen that since Deadeye Scouts hit.  Although to be fair, they're still pretty sweet.  I even heard that one time somebody beat The Zack Matthews with a couple TIE/Ds when he was running a janky Mindlink list.

Yes, playing Tie/Ds against the rebel regen lists was a kind of utopia and then we were blindsided ;).   The other issue is that the Tie/Ds weapon options are not nearly as effective against big base ships (nor do they like turrets as much), which the meta has turned back to heavily (on reddit someone ran an analysis of the top 128 World's lists and something like 75% or more of the lists had a large ship, which to me is crazy).  

Having said that, I didn't listen to the podcast and am just echoing Bio, so what did I miss? 

Edited by AlexW

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1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Yes, playing Tie/Ds against the rebel regen lists was a kind of utopia and then we were blindsided ;).   The other issue is that the Tie/Ds weapon options are not nearly as effective against big base ships (nor do they like turrets as much), which the meta has turned back to heavily (on reddit someone ran an analysis of the top 128 World's lists and something like 75% or more of the lists had a large ship, which to me is crazy).  

Having said that, I didn't listen to the podcast and am just echoing Bio, so what did I miss? 

Basically we all thought /D was going to be amazing, totally missing the fact that X7 defenders would drive all the stuff /D defenders we're good against out of the meta!

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