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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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45 minutes ago, Huitzil37 said:

Female Thor was awful for reasons that had nothing to do with her gender, but every single person who noticed this had "You must just hate and fear women!" screamed in their faces until they went away, and then they were held up to the public as figures of shame. Paul Fieg's Ghostbusters was awful for reasons that had nothing to do with the genders of the cast, but every single person who noticed this had "You must just hate and fear women!" screamed in their faces until they went away, and then they were held up to the public as figures of shame. The Force Awakens was worthless for reasons that had nothing to do with the genders or race of the cast, but a very large proportion of the people who noticed this had "You must just hate and fear women and/or black people!" screamed in their faces until they went away, and then they were held up to the public as figures of shame. The most popular form of viral marketing at the moment is to target unpopular people and wave the Totemic Power Of Women in their direction, find a troll on Twitter saying something they don't believe because it makes you upset, and then scream to the world "Look at how bad and terrible and women-hating unpopular nerds are! We should all shame and punish them by seeing this movie / reading this comic / playing this game!"

Female Thor is great and The Force Awakens is better then A New Hope. Also, Hotaru has the potential to be way better then Hoturi, cause he was boring as Hell. Anyone who believes these are not facts is living a lie.

Edited by Oliveira
Misspells

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Well, as a woman, and one with with a marked preference for women I applaud the Hotaru x Kachiko relationship! Hopefully we get a nice one between two men too, so kudo's to FFG. Why AEG was so wary of depicting same-gender love stories  was always a bit puzzling, so this is a step in the right direction.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

Personnally, I like the fact that Hoturi became Hotaru. And before thinking that the sky is falling, I'm willing to wait for other fictions from FFG to see where they will go with their story.

They've only released one fiction so far, and I see a bunch of people complaining about how FFG has destroyed L5R as we know it and the story will never be the same, and thus it'll never be as good as what we know and why did they change anything and hell, why did they even reboot the story it was unnecessary...

 

It gets tiring.

You all realize the old Hoturi stories still exist, right?  Like, you can go look them up and read them right this minute, without even finishing reading this post.

People that hate new-Rokugan seem to fall into two camps, that are diametrically opposed.

Camp A) "There was no reason to change Hoturi into Hotaru if they are not going to change anything else.  It's just change for change's sake.  Why, oh why, did you do this superficial change?  Social Justice is a cancer!"

Camp B) "With Hoturi as Hotaru, you can't tell the same story anymore!  If Dairu even exists in any form in this world, his history is different.  Hotaru's husband isn't even a fox spirit!  Why buy the L5R name if you are just going to change everything!  Have you no respect for Rokugan?"

There is literally no way to make these two groups happy at the same time.  And it's all based on a grand total of one fiction.

This thread is painful....

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12 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

Personnally, I like the fact that Hoturi became Hotaru. And before thinking that the sky is falling, I'm willing to wait for other fictions from FFG to see where they will go with their story.

They've only released one fiction so far, and I see a bunch of people complaining about how FFG has destroyed L5R as we know it and the story will never be the same, and thus it'll never be as good as what we know and why did they change anything and hell, why did they even reboot the story it was unnecessary...

 

It gets tiring.

I absolutely agree. It doesn't matter to me what gender is our clan champion, as long as he/she is an interesting character. Hoturi's story is one of the best and well known L5R stories and I am glad that FFG won't just mindlessly repeat it - if the gender change helps to create similary strong yet different story I am all for it.

 

And again, as it was said many times - why won't we give FFG a chance? We've seen one fiction with one clear message - we are still in Rokugan but it is a different place. I loved Doji Makoto, his story was just getting unfolded when the sale happened. Yet I do not loathe FFG for not ever seeing him again, not for the gender swap of our most iconic champion. Just give them a chance to told the story they want. I know I will.

Edited by Doji Makoto

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2 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Camp A) "There was no reason to change Hoturi into Hotaru if they are not going to change anything else.  It's just change for change's sake.  Why, oh why, did you do this superficial change?  Social Justice is a cancer!"

Camp B) "With Hoturi as Hotaru, you can't tell the same story anymore!  If Dairu even exists in any form in this world, his history is different.  Hotaru's husband isn't even a fox spirit!  Why buy the L5R name if you are just going to change everything!  Have you no respect for Rokugan?"

There is literally no way to make these two groups happy at the same time.  And it's all based on a grand total of one fiction.

This thread is painful....

  I agree with you entirely on your last point. This is a hobby, a fun thing. I don't like seeing politics invade it. 

  I disagree with your second to last point. There is a way to make both groups happy. Tell great stories. In the end, that will make (the majority - there are always odd exceptions, and this being the internet, they will speak up...) both groups pleased.

  I think some of the outcry comes up because the first story was, well, good. But that's it. Oh, there are reasons for that - it had a lot of burden to carry in re-introducing Rokugan and being the very first fiction. Still just wound up being good.

  While I would prefer to avoid the whole political issue with changing Hoturi to Hotaru, I'll delve in very briefly. I don't have a big problem with them including more female characters (though I never thought the original was particularly lacking.) I do hope they keep it grounded, though. Men and women are, in fact, different. The kick-butt female warrior trope can get seriously overused. The bit with Hotaru as fighting superwoman did bug me for that reason -- but only a minor problem at the moment. Anyway, I'm going to just hope they keep their writing quality high, and will keep following it for that.

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4 minutes ago, agarrett said:

I disagree with your second to last point. There is a way to make both groups happy. Tell great stories. In the end, that will make (the majority - there are always odd exceptions, and this being the internet, they will speak up...) both groups pleased.

I wish I agreed with you, but I'm not convinced Camp B would be happy with that because it's not the Rokugan they know, dang it!  

Someone earlier was complaining that Hotaru wasn't married to a fox spirit.  I'm genuinely not sure where we can go from there.

Edited by Yogo Gohei

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1 minute ago, Doji Makoto said:

Rogue One is clearly the best one. I loved the baddies (Tarkin <3)  so much in that film.

Rogue One is still too new for me to put it in a proper ranking. But I like it.

Time has even made me like the prequels more. Except Phantom. That just got worse on re-watch.

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Is it time to call for mods to lock this thread as off-topic? If you want to debate gender politics, there's forums for that where you can yell at random internet strangers until your blue in the face.

But Force Awakens was a good movie. It's essentially a rehash of New Hope, but with better, less annoying, characters.

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1 hour ago, Huitzil37 said:

How it starts is by exactly and specifically the thing you are doing right now. Someone does something and waves around the Totemic Power Of Women as justification.

When people wonder just why equal representation for women is a big deal, what male privilege looks like, and why it's important, posts like yours are always the first good examples to show them.

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1 hour ago, Huitzil37 said:

How it starts is by exactly and specifically the thing you are doing right now. Someone does something and waves around the Totemic Power Of Women as justification. "Totemic Power of Women" is not the only attribute this action has, or even the most salient. When people object to or even attempt to notice the attributes this action has other than "Totemic Power Of Women", they are told "You must just not like women! You must hate and be afraid of women! The only reason to notice any attribute of this action other than the Totemic Power Of Women is that you hate and are afraid of women!"

I think you're looking for this: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/

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51 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

When people wonder just why equal representation for women is a big deal, what male privilege looks like, and why it's important, posts like yours are always the first good examples to show them.

Equal representation for men, and female privilege are a thing too. Every coin has two sides and balance must account for both. And certainly, defaming stuff like racism or sexism while being a frakking racist or sexist (which happens too often), is not the way to go for those who declare themselves as civilised.

I have no issues with female protagonists. I am big fan of Barbara Hambly, Louise Cooper or C. J. Cherryh. And it makes me happy when you can get a female protagonist and no eyebrows are raised.

This is a game and not a political platform, so I expect FFG to remain neutral in perceived issues and not have characters spewing political one sided mantras. That is not to say I do not like a plural Rokugan. I do not like matriarchy in real life (or patriarchy) but for the Utaku is ok because it adds diversity (and potential interesting story conflicts). As long as they are not turned into that kind of feminist women who tweet about how they want all men dead...

The path of living with other people is difficult. As for people hating reboots, it will always happen. But people should try to hope for the best and keep in mind that the old still exists.

Edited by Wintersong

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1 hour ago, Gaffa said:

When people wonder just why equal representation for women is a big deal, what male privilege looks like, and why it's important, posts like yours are always the first good examples to show them.

It will never end. Entropy cannot be reversed. Everyone will look at someone saying "this is a lie, it is not true, it is a lie" and conclude "He must believe it is true and hate how good and true it is!" because the lie is so much more important than the truth it obliterates everything in its path. The damage is already irreversible. All is lost.

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1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

This is both a bad and awesome idea at the same time.

Hotaru couldn't even remember her husband's name,  no reason she couldn't have forgotten she has a little brother or even a twin brother.  They could even be in love with the same woman. 

Edited by HirumaShigure

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Honestly I like the alternate universe tweaks so far. Hotaru/Kachiko's love is still forbidden and dangerous (hopefully the same games that lead to it happened but wait and see). I want to to see what this world has Rokugan is. I want to know what else shaped this version. I want to know what the Golden Rose of the unicorn is motivated by. I want to watch this new tale unfold.

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Rather than quote the long post, I will observe: 

Huitzl37 is correct that one may object to female Thor, Ghostbusters, or the Force Awakens for many legitimate reasons. And it is plausible that sometimes those reasons were dismissed with false accusations that the dislike of those things was based on misogyny. 

However, that is quite compatible with it also being true that _some_ of the animus against each of those things held by _some_ people was based on misogyny. Which in my view it was.

In any case, it has already been made pretty clear that there are several relevant legitimate arguments regarding Hotaru:

Pro: Increasing equality of gender representation is a good thing.

Shaking up the story can be fun and opens up new avenues to explore.

Con: The original setting was good as it was and changing it therefore takes away from a good thing.

Some of the best aspects of the original arc, especially Hoturi unknowingly killing his own son, seem to be foreclosed by the gender swap.

Anything I missed?

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5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If her name is anything to go by, the answer here is Google. 

Again is she more courtly than Yokatsu? Are Yasamura, Shono, and Shonoko still the same? Did she make the pilgrimage singing the songs of her people and did she return singing the songs of Rokugan.  I'm really hoping Yasamura is still alive because someone needs to remind Kamoko not to be serious all the time.

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41 minutes ago, Huitzil37 said:

 

It will never end. Entropy cannot be reversed. Everyone will look at someone saying "this is a lie, it is not true, it is a lie" and conclude "He must believe it is true and hate how good and true it is!" because the lie is so much more important than the truth it obliterates everything in its path. The damage is already irreversible. All is lost.

I'm glad you know how to pat yourself on the back.

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