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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1. Hoturi's wife Ameiko was infact a Kitsune fox spirit

3. During the Day of Thunder Hoturi Died in Kachiko's arms. Kachiko admited her love for him and finaly forgave him for the death of their son.

1. I don't think she was. If her meta profile is anything to go by, she was just a mundane human with lots of interesting fox-spirit-like perks. 

3. It is also worth pointing out that Kachiko only told Hoturi that Dairu was his son when he was already dying. Like, she told Hoturi that Dairu was his son, then immediately forgave him for killing him. I fully expected Hoturi to explain with his dying breath that this is not how forgiveness works, but I guess that would have undercut the drama quite drastically :D

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2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

1. I don't think she was. If her meta profile is anything to go by, she was just a mundane human with lots of interesting fox-spirit-like perks. 

3. It is also worth pointing out that Kachiko only told Hoturi that Dairu was his son when he was already dying. Like, she told Hoturi that Dairu was his son, then immediately forgave him for killing him. I fully expected Hoturi to explain with his dying breath that this is not how forgiveness works, but I guess that would have undercut the drama quite drastically :D

With #1, the old Way of the Crane book mentions that her disadvantage is that of a fox-wife. However, it doesn't seem that she knew about it till much later. That being said, Hoturi did call her his "pet fox" because of her love of nature.

With #3, this is what I could find about the last moments. It's slightly different than what some would say. I didn't see anything about Dairu though unless it's part of another fiction. Forgiveness for prior events and remembrance isn't exactly the same as what's going on with the fiction currently though (although the Day of Thunder would come much later than our current date in the time line).

Hoturi's Last Request (Crane)

After their fateful duel with Fu Leng, Bayushi Kachiko knelt with the head of the dying Crane Champion on her lap. His blood flowed freely from his wound and his cough was wet and painful.

With only momnets of life left in his body, he whispered, "Take my hand."

She did. "That was a foolish thing to do Hoturi," she said to him. "After all the pain I've caused you. After everything I've taken from you. Your family, your clan..." her fingers touched the black braid tied to his belt, " ...your wife." The strength in his finger was fading. She held them tighter. "Why?" she asked, her whisper filled with confusion and rage. "You should have let me..."

"Someone once told me life is too short for regrets." He coughed again. "And revenge." He struggled to see across the dim lit room. "I saw your courage, lady. It saved my best friend's life." She put her fingers on his lips, but he shook his head. The pain in his chest stole more of his breath and she told him to rest. "No. I must say this." He looked deep in her eyes. "Take off your mask," he said. She did not protest. Hoturi smiled. "I forgive you." he whispered. "Pray, forgive me so I may pass in peace."

With her mask set aside, she nodded. "I forgive you, Hoturi." He bit his blood-spangled lip and his eyes squeezed shut. Kachiko took the braid from his belt and slipped it into his hand. "I'm certain she forgives you too."

"Remember this day, lady," he said, his voice fading away. "Remember me."

Just before the void came to claim him, Hoturi felt a single tear fall on his cheek and her voice softly whispering, "I will."

Edited by Kubernes

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Three things are bothering me right now.

One, this isn't what retcon means, and the pedant in me is incredibly bothered by it.

Two, perversion is a very strange word to use in this context, and if you didn't understand the flak you'd get, I'm not sorry.

Three, I think this is a post we're going to see over and over again maybe once a month till after gencon, at least.

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30 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

With #1, the old Way of the Crane book mentions that her disadvantage is that of a fox-wife. However, it doesn't seem that she knew about it till much later. That being said, Hoturi did call her his "pet fox" because of her love of nature.

With #3, this is what I could find about the last moments. It's slightly different than what some would say. I didn't see anything about Dairu though unless it's part of another fiction. Forgiveness for prior events and remembrance isn't exactly the same as what's going on with the fiction currently though (although the Day of Thunder would come much later than our current date in the time line).

Hoturi's Last Request (Crane)

After their fateful duel with Fu Leng, Bayushi Kachiko knelt with the head of the dying Crane Champion on her lap. His blood flowed freely from his wound and his cough was wet and painful.

With only momnets of life left in his body, he whispered, "Take my hand."

She did. "That was a foolish thing to do Hoturi," she said to him. "After all the pain I've caused you. After everything I've taken from you. Your family, your clan..." her fingers touched the black braid tied to his belt, " ...your wife." The strength in his finger was fading. She held them tighter. "Why?" she asked, her whisper filled with confusion and rage. "You should have let me..."

"Someone once told me life is too short for regrets." He coughed again. "And revenge." He struggled to see across the dim lit room. "I saw your courage, lady. It saved my best friend's life." She put her fingers on his lips, but he shook his head. The pain in his chest stole more of his breath and she told him to rest. "No. I must say this." He looked deep in her eyes. "Take off your mask," he said. She did not protest. Hoturi smiled. "I forgive you." he whispered. "Pray, forgive me so I may pass in peace."

With her mask set aside, she nodded. "I forgive you, Hoturi." He bit his blood-spangled lip and his eyes squeezed shut. Kachiko took the braid from his belt and slipped it into his hand. "I'm certain she forgives you too."

"Remember this day, lady," he said, his voice fading away. "Remember me."

Just before the void came to claim him, Hoturi felt a single tear fall on his cheek and her voice softly whispering, "I will."

Well, it's no Thorin's Deathbed Scene, but <sniffle> it'll do.

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15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Well, it's no Thorin's Deathbed Scene, but <sniffle> it'll do.

Kachiko and Hoturi met again, one last time. I was at GenCon 2001, when John Wick (the game's original writer, who had left the game years before this) premiered this story by reading it to a hell of lot of players, all crowded around: http://kyudenryu.tripod.com/fiction/no_regrets.htm



I am not ashamed of how teary-eyed I got. I was far from the only one.

 

Edited by Togashi Gao Shan

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2 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Kachiko and Hoturi met again, one last time. I was at GenCon 2001, when John Wick (the game's original writer, who had left the game years before this) premiered this story by reading it to a hell of lot of players, all crowded around: http://kyudenryu.tripod.com/fiction/no_regrets.htm



I am not ashamed of how teary-eyed I got. I was far from the only one.

 

Still, I wonder...

"No!" said Hoturi.  "If more of us valued secrets and schemes and plots above honor and glory, it would be a shadier world.  But virtuous or shady, I must leave it now.  Farewell, child of the sinister West!"

...

...

...maybe it's just as well that John Wick went with his version.

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@JJ48: What was the year of No Regret? 1998? I only ask that because of the years of various fiction.

What we actually dealing with three different versions of the clan wars? There's the original l5r clan war via the AEG. The second version is the lcg. The third is the WotC redux via the books and the time it held the license.  

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On 5/29/2017 at 7:33 AM, Doji Takashi said:

 But why would FFG change Doji Hoturi, one of the most prominent and well established characters in Rokugan's history, to "Doji Hotaru"?!? 

They said in the first Facebook live video they want new L5R to represent both genders equally. This is something old L5R didn't do well. It was heavily represented by my male characters & players in the past. 

Gaming in the United States is represented primarily by males. I know this has shifted some since L5R first came out. We've got a bit further to go. 

I was last at Gen Con in 2015. There certainly were more woman there than back in 2008. Not so much at the AEG tables. They say the biggest difference between European conventions and American conventions is the greater presence of woman & free flowing booze. 

I understand changing Hotaru's gender is a bit like Marvel turning Colossus gay in the Marvel ultimate run. However, if it potentially brings new female players into L5R, I'm for it. 

 

Edited by SavageTofu

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57 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

@JJ48: What was the year of No Regret? 1998? I only ask that because of the years of various fiction.

What we actually dealing with three different versions of the clan wars? There's the original l5r clan war via the AEG. The second version is the lcg. The third is the WotC redux via the books and the time it held the license.  

I'm not actually sure, sadly.  1998 was a bit before my time in the game.

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I can appreciate that some people are unhappy with the story reboot.  Dislike of L5R story direction is not new.  We all have our own preferences and will be disappointed when the storyline doesn't fall within or goes against those preferences.

I don't understand, however, the ideas that things must be as they were or that the new cannon somehow affects the old.  Alternate timelines are a part of the old cannon, from 1,000 Years of Darkness to Iron Rokugan and other settings in the Imperial Histories books.  FFG's Rokugan can be looked at as just another dream in Yume-do, as could AEG's.

I've always considered the storyline a large scale RPG with the various story teams as the GMs and the fan community as the players.  Unfortunately, the previous game has ended after a very long campaign.  We now have a new GM, however, beginning a new campaign.  This is one of many L5R games I am playing in.  I was even in another one recently that had also gender swapped a few familiar characters.  I really enjoyed it and look forward to this one.

 

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8 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

This is the point I was make earlier. If they are going to change Hoturi's gender then don't keep the same story. IMHO the only good reason to change genders is to either explore a female/female relationship in L5R and tell a diffrent story that could not be told if it where a male/female relationship. But if you keep the same or a similar story then its just change for change sake

There's every chance that professional storytellers thought of another good reason. I know it seems crazy, but people who actually do this for a living are often pretty good at it.

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5 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I've said this else where, but I imagine what's happening to be a massive push by the Otomo/Ikoma/Shosuro historians in the far future to rewrite the Imperial Histories to hide some secret shame.

In that case, which story is the true history, and which is the revision?

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25 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I've said this else where, but I imagine what's happening to be a massive push by the Otomo/Ikoma/Shosuro historians in the far future to rewrite the Imperial Histories to hide some secret shame.

Though it wouldn't necessarily be 'shame' that is (might?) being covered up. I'd suspect that all forms of court entanglements are afoot, of which we know about 5% so far. 

Furthermore, I'm trying to shake off the feeling that maybe, just maybe FFG is using said story as a bookend toward the eventual inclusion of plots and counterplots that will rival Game of Thrones, if I dare say. (apologies to the writer of GoT)

Edited by LordBlunt

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13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

So, was Pontius Pilate the Dragon or the Phoenix?

I'd say the Dragon since of the two clans I feel like the Dragon are more open to radical ideas and would therefore be more resistant to the idea of crucifying Jesus.

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9 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

1. I don't think she was. If her meta profile is anything to go by, she was just a mundane human with lots of interesting fox-spirit-like perks. 

3. It is also worth pointing out that Kachiko only told Hoturi that Dairu was his son when he was already dying. Like, she told Hoturi that Dairu was his son, then immediately forgave him for killing him. I fully expected Hoturi to explain with his dying breath that this is not how forgiveness works, but I guess that would have undercut the drama quite drastically :D

Page 59 Great Clans: Doji Ameiko—actually a foxwife who was smitten with the handsome Crane.

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2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Page 59 Great Clans: Doji Ameiko—actually a foxwife who was smitten with the handsome Crane.

There's also the "retcon" of him sleeping around too, as long as he didn't fall in love with his conquests after marrying Ameiko. It's a big difference from other sources and I'm doubtful its a good change imo from both Ameiko's and Hoturi's perspective as characters.

There's also no real mention of the final fiction, No Regrets, for Kachiko either. Then again, looking at numerous characters, a good number of smaller, important events are missing for various characters. But there's only so much space and I would have rather see 4e make a book for each clan rather than lumping everything together.

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12 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I would have rather see 4e make a book for each clan rather than lumping everything together.

 

The problem is, those just don't sell as well. People have a tendency to pick up only the splatbooks for the factions they like best, whereas if you do books that take more of a "something for everybody" approach, everybody sees value in having them.

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