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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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The question is what people who hate the changes so much 'that they either dont want to play the game or would not play it (say RPG players only)' makes it think spouting about is worthwhile? There will always be a hard core that would hate the game whatever FFG did basically having closed minds to the possiblity that things might , dare I say it, be better than the original.

Perhaps it will fail ( I hope it wont but I am not psychic). I dont think if it does it will be because they changed the sex of a main character or adjusted the story. The game will succeed/fail on whether it is a good game to play, whether they can make a gripping storyline and whether they can get enough new players to play it.

Edited by Matrim
put 'not' in front of psychic....

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5 minutes ago, Silver Crane said:

That is not the same thing, and I think you probably know that.

It could be very similiar. I hope you also noticed they try (tried?) to make some illusion of "winners choice" game design in AGoT with all these battle of trident stuff.

So there always was a possibility to make "player's choice" type of game, while telling same story (even as background) but focusing on completely different elements that were hidden/unexplored in original. 

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21 minutes ago, C2K said:

I personally worried immediately about tournaments when FFG acquired L5R because FFG doesn't have a good tournament structure to begin with.  In fact, the one thing I hope is that L5R does impact and improve the Organized Play system into a better circuit. 

One of L5R's greatest strengths was a competent and dedicated collection of TOs all around the world, willing and able to host events with or without official recognition. Hopefully FFG will build on this and utilise them. I understand the reasons that most of their tournament focus for the other LCGs has been based on stores, but with the network of experienced TOs available for L5R I'd like to see a wider array of venues used.

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1 minute ago, Evilgm said:

One of L5R's greatest strengths was a competent and dedicated collection of TOs all around the world, willing and able to host events with or without official recognition. Hopefully FFG will build on this and utilise them. I understand the reasons that most of their tournament focus for the other LCGs has been based on stores, but with the network of experienced TOs available for L5R I'd like to see a wider array of venues used.

It could work for USA, where Kotei were typically one day events, often hold in stores. In Europe many Koteis were organized in really various (social friendly) places, often by "independent", non-retailer TO's,  and what's most important, they were two or even three days events.

This is where two different philosophies collide.

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4 minutes ago, kempy said:

It could be very similiar. I hope you also noticed they try (tried?) to make some illusion of "winners choice" game design in AGoT with all these battle of trident stuff.

So there always was a possibility to make "player's choice" type of game, while telling same story (even as background) but focusing on completely different elements that were hidden/unexplored in original. 

To be sure, but playing it off as AGoT LCG 1.0 -> 2.0 is replaying the same story over and over again is not the same as rebooting L5R.  Even the World Champion Cards and the Battle of the Trident events don't add or change the story.  They are simply adding cards or deciding what cards to make. AGoT is a game based on a existing IP that existed prior to the games.  That's why you comparison doesn't work. Again, I suspect you know that though.

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3 hours ago, kempy said:

They retell same story in AGoT 1.0 and now in AGoT 2.0. Everyody knows the story behind it. Game is worse because of it?

AGoT the card game was never about the story. As many have said in the past on these forums, L5R is defined by the lore and the story interaction. 

When I sit down for a game of Thrones, or go to a tournament, we aren't playing out the Red Wedding or anything. It's just a game that is related to the story because of the characters and setting. Sometimes, the Mountain will face the Red Viper in a 1 on 1 military challenge by chance and that's interesting, but moments like that are few and far between.

In L5R, we'll have tournaments that represent the Emerald championship, Topaz Championship, major conflicts in the story and all kinds of thing like that.

Not to mention the fiction that will come out each month that will absorb you into the story. If the story were the same, what would be the point of the fiction? I could just go read the old fiction.

So, in that regard, if we were given the exact same scenarios with the exact same choices as in Old5R, I believe it would be a tad bit less exciting.

And, based on this thread, it seems like people generally agree with that sentiment.

Edited by Joe From Cincinnati

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Let me first start off by saying that although I wasn't around for L5R CCG, I get where your frustration is coming from. I went through a VERY similar set of emotions when Lucasfilm declared all of the Star Wars EU non-canon in anticipation of the release of The Force Awakens. I  had grown up reading Star Wars books since elementary school, and the old EU is what inspired me to work toward becoming an author. Naturally, when I heard this news I was devastated. I understood that for there to be new stories, the EU needed to be cleaned up, but like you I was upset that they threw EVERYTHING out the window (save the movies and the Clone Wars). I remember, at one point, even thinking that I wouldn't ever read any of the new EU fiction that came out, due to my anger. 

But, as time went on, I came to like the new Star Wars canon alot more. I liked that new fans would be more willing to get into some of the new EU content, because instead of a mountain of canon books there were now a dozen or so. I liked that they cleaned up some of the messier elements of the old canon too--now, instead of there being several different stories about how the Rebels got the Death Star plans, there is one. I also appreciated the new canon's willingness to incorporate popular elements from the old EU, like Grand Admiral Thrawn, while leaving out some of the sillier elements.

I'm not saying this will happen with you and the new L5R canon. Heck, the new canon could turn out to be worse than the old canon for all I know. But what I am saying is that it would be a good idea to give it a shot. I've read several books that I loved from the new Star Wars EU, and if I'd held onto my anger I'd never have gotten to experience them. Maybe it will be the same for you and the LCG canon. 

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2 hours ago, C2K said:

Especially in the case of Hoturi, it really does come off as a punch in the gut, as you traded the debonair Hoturi for the naive Hotaru.  I mean, they are almost the same character with the exception that Hotaru comes off weaker in every way just based on the first story. 

And that's why I like her. She is not your typical superhero champion. Just a young inexperienced girl with childhood trauma thrown into the most turbulent times for her clan. We need more "weaker" characters and I am glad that Cranes got one.

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6 hours ago, KerenRhys said:

Since we had Mirumoto and Mirumoto Hitomi as Dragon Thunders in the original storyline, either the sex has no impact of reincarnation or 2d gen thunders are not reincarnations of the first gen ones (and since Atarasi ended as an Akutenshi, it's doubtful he would have reincarnated as Yakamo...).

Canonically, they were the reincarnation of the original Thunders. Or at least, Kachiko was the same person as Shosuro, according to No Regrets. Presumably this also applied to the other Thunders. This made no sense of course, because of what you said, and because Shosuro's lifespan overlapped with Kachiko's, but it was canon.

Regarding how much revision the reboot can bear, it can apparently bear at least as much as we got, judging from all the enthusiasm surrounding the game.

As for the reasons for Hoturi's gender change, we can only speculate. But gender representation in L5R's early years was very uneven, so my guess is they're trying to fix that. Which is great, IMHO. Making the game more approachable to women can only be good for the franchise.

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20 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

I think we're all now interested to see what they do with Bayushi Yojiro and the case of the mysterious swapping genders.
 

Ha, at least this art swap is explained in Oracle. 

20 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

Or if they go with Doji Shizue's inexplicable age regression from her basic to XP version.

I don't know. She looks like 6 years old girl on basic version while sitting front  to her teacher.

Edited by kempy

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19 minutes ago, kempy said:

Ha, at least this art swap is explained in Oracle. 

I don't know. She looks like 6 years old girl on basic version while sitting front  to her teacher.

I'm assuming that's a joke. She's supposed to be the teacher in that picture.

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I think it's a bit early to be claiming that they made changes for no reason whatsoever.  We've seen one whole fiction that wasn't even a story in its entirety, but rather was an introduction to a story.  We'll need to see more of the story before we can judge how some things being changed and some remaining the same affect it.

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Why change the story?

 

Because they can, because they want to, and because it's a Gordian knot solution to the old canon.

I'm on record as thinking such a course of action was... silly and counterproductive, but I'm a clear minority, and even I would be the first to tell you that there were elements of the old canon we'd all love to see swept under the rug. But getting everyone to agree on what those elements were would be an impossibility.

 

And since my favorite Great Clan frequently got either ignored or treated as a punching bag in the old canon, I'm going to be hopeful moving forward.

 

It's not like the stories of Hoturi were suddenly erased from the internet. He can still matter to you. I mean, I may never even see Isawa Mizuhiko exist in this timeline, but that's not the end of the world.

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2 hours ago, Fumi said:

As for the reasons for Hoturi's gender change, we can only speculate. But gender representation in L5R's early years was very uneven, so my guess is they're trying to fix that. Which is great, IMHO. Making the game more approachable to women can only be good for the franchise.

They straight up say as much in the Crane video, jumping off Hotaru to speak to the broader question of gender representation.

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26 minutes ago, BD Flory said:

They straight up say as much in the Crane video, jumping off Hotaru to speak to the broader question of gender representation.

Ah thanks, good to know. I haven't gotten around to watching that video yet.

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3 hours ago, BD Flory said:

They straight up say as much in the Crane video, jumping off Hotaru to speak to the broader question of gender representation.

My problem with that whole "gender representation" thing is that I'm doubting whether or not the fiction people actually looked into the old game. There's a huge number of great female characters and L5R never had a gender problem compared to other ccgs. It was leagues ahead of the competition in that regard. So I find changing someone gender just for representation feels like it's simple self-gratification.

9 hours ago, Kinzen said:

 

AGoT was never a game where the story got written based on the results of the game. The interaction is very different.

Edit: also, as to there being "no benefit" to gender-swapping Hoturi -- well, there's the benefit of putting more significant female characters into the story, and the benefit of representing a same-sex relationship (I'm also hoping for a prominent m/m relationship to show up somewhere, given the role of male homosexuality in actual Japanese history). Not everyone is going to think those are good things, but I do.

I don't really consider Hotaru that significant at the moment. She's isn't even really deserving of her title either.

There's also other problems I have with the 1 fiction that's available (so keep that in mind plus we 'might' get improvements of characters). First, Satume is reduced to being just a typical bad father. Satume was not a perfect person by any means in the old fiction but he had some depth: he adopted Shizue, took an scar in defense of the emperor, and even loved his wife despite his duties (Lost Love for his wife was one of his Disadvantages in the old rpg). I have a real problem with overly simplified villainous males setup just to prop up female characters.

You could go into quite a lot with the problems with the simple chance of Kachiko as well. Potentially gone are the layers between her and her husband, her son, and her duty in the clan. Shoju was supposed to be the ugliest character in L5R fiction (enough to make an ox weep) but was loved by the most beautiful woman in L5R fiction. The dynamic of Dairu is probably gone too, along with the aspect between blood and family of the pre-coup Scorpion (how can Shoju finally accept Dairu as his son despite his blood?). Loyalty is the very definition of the Scorpion so I guess that's out the window too. All of this for what exactly? 

Hoturi was faithful after marriage, pending on the source. Now we have the exact opposite with both being completely unfaithful. For what? Forbidden love? No offense but that's a horrible story premise for a relatively selfish reason.

Maybe the point will be that Hotaru simply wants something she can't have or that she already has someone at home more deserving of love? Don't know because her husband isn't worth more than a sentence despite Hoturi's wife getting more character. There was also that note of her marriage to Hoturi as pushing him towards his duty and responsibility to the his clan.  

It would have been far better if every one of the core character in this new L5R had slightly different names to denote difference rather than what we potentially have now.

Simply put, there really needs to be a lot more to Hotaru, this superficial relationship she has, and the upcoming fiction to compare to what we had. I can give them some time but I won't give them forever. Thus far, we've lost more than we've gained and it's highly questionable that we gained anything of actual substance.

Edited by Kubernes

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8 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I don't really consider Hotaru that significant at the moment. She's isn't even really deserving of her title either.

Her late father clearly shared those feelings. He ultimately did bestow the title upon her, though, so in a strictly legitimate sense...

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8 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Her late father clearly shared those feelings. He ultimately did bestow the title upon her, though, so in a strictly legitimate sense...

There really needs to be more about this relationship and the circumstances to that passing. If I remember, Satume didn't pass that title till he died in the old fiction. Satume also had some problems with Hoturi but it's played out slightly differently. It's not just this relationship but a great deal of her relationships need more focus.

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12 hours ago, Doji Takashi said:

I know, it is the same in my mother tongue and it is listed as the second meaning of this word in said Dictionary. I concern myself about linguistics and I work with definitions. I deliberately use words according to proper semantics in the hope that it might educate people in a subtle way. Thank you for the opportunity to explain it explicitly!

Semantic is the defense of those who don't own their words. 

Applying the term "perversion", given its secondary meaning, to a story change that involves a character's sex being changed...well, that gives a much more sinister reading to your line about "educating people in a subtle way". 

I'm sure that's not what you meant. But being clear about what you mean (say: by avoiding the use of words that could be interpreted otherwise given the circumstances, rather than deliberately using confusing wording "to educate people in a subtle way") is your job when trying to communicate a message. Failure to do so is squarely on your shoulder, whatever (bad) reason you give for it.

Edited by Himoto

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30 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

My problem with that whole "gender representation" thing is that I'm doubting whether or not the fiction people actually looked into the old game. There's a huge number of great female characters and L5R never had a gender problem compared to other ccgs. It was leagues ahead of the competition in that regard. So I find changing someone gender just for representation feels like it's simple self-gratification.

You could go into quite a lot with the problems with the simple chance of Kachiko as well. Potentially gone are the layers between her and her husband, her son, and her duty in the clan. Shoju was supposed to be the ugliest character in L5R fiction (enough to make an ox weep) but was loved by the most beautiful woman in L5R fiction. The dynamic of Dairu is probably gone too, along with the aspect between blood and family of the pre-coup Scorpion (how can Shoju finally accept Dairu as his son despite his blood?). Loyalty is the very definition of the Scorpion so I guess that's out the window too. All of this for what exactly? 

Simply put, there really needs to be a lot more to Hotaru, this superficial relationship she has, and the upcoming fiction to compare to what we had. I can give them some time but I won't give them forever. Thus far, we've lost more than we've gained and it's highly questionable that we gained anything of actual substance.

We've had 10 pages of fiction so far. We have no idea how her husband is going to turn out. He may be very important, just wasn't important or involved in the literally only story we have. And this wasn't even a Scorpion story, so we have no idea what potential there is for Kachiko's character depth and relationships.

And as for being self-gratifying, I didn't pick up on any of that. It's not like they were saying "Hey, hey, guys, hey look guys, hey -- LESBIANS! Look how progressive we are!" I suppose a lot of this is reader response theory, but unless you're expecting homosexual relationships to only exist in fiction to prove a point, you shouldn't be seeing anything differently than if the original L5R genders had been preserved.

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