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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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10 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

That's what Oxford says, but actual people typically use the word to refer to sexual deviance or abhorrence.

I know, it is the same in my mother tongue and it is listed as the second meaning of this word in said Dictionary. I concern myself about linguistics and I work with definitions. I deliberately use words according to proper semantics in the hope that it might educate people in a subtle way. Thank you for the opportunity to explain it explicitly!

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13 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

I am disappointed because of the reboot

Hell, me too: there are still so many things in the setting they should have changed, I can't even bother to list them all. But hey, I give FFG the benefit of doubt, maybe they do have some super secret plan to fix all those issues in the future ^_^

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1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

As someone who took part in a massive retcon, I would say the setting can take a lot and still remain true to itself. In its core, you really only need three things for the full effect:

- The Five Rings and stuff themed around them

- Color-coded clans with strong thematic emphasis

- Samurai (in some shape or form)

Once you have these, the setting can be about (almost) anything, and it will still feel like Rokugan. You can ditch the geography, the society, most of the political stuff, customs, families, even whole factions, and ultimately it will make little difference in the end. 

I have to disagree with you here. Now I'm not against the reboot. I'm not fond of much of the stories after the Clan Wars. But if they start changing to much of the geography, the society, politics, customs, families, or prehistory of Rokugan and it stops being L5R. Now this is from a RPG perspective, I Have not played the card game since hidden emperor. 

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8 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Hell, me too: there are still so many things in the setting they should have changed, I can't even bother to list them all. But hey, I give FFG the benefit of doubt, maybe they do have some super secret plan to fix all those issues in the future ^_^

Fingers crossed, man, "fix all the broken things in the foundation of the setting" was the primary reason I wanted a reboot, and playing it super-close to the original makes me leery. The original run of L5R's story had a lot of problems, and a significant portion of them -- not all of them, but a significant portion -- were because the way the setting had been constructed, with the Second Day of Thunder as the end and no real thought to how things would work after that, made those problems inevitable. If the game ended on the Second Day of Thunder, then the Dragon would be remembered for having a well-planned role in the story, instead of the exact opposite.

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6 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I have to disagree with you here. Now I'm not against the reboot. I'm not fond of much of the stories after the Clan Wars. But if they start changing to much of the geography, the society, politics, customs, families, or prehistory of Rokugan and it stops being L5R. Now this is from a RPG perspective, I Have not played the card game since hidden emperor. 

I'm saying this from an RPG perspective too, but 90% of the thing you mentioned is either irrelevant (geography, history, families) or personalized for each gaming group (politics, society, customs) anyway. So changing them would either have zero effect on your game (who cares if the Fall of the Kami happened or not - it is never actually a thing to consider) or just mess with your headcanon (who cares if the Celestial Order meets the trash bin, nobody plays it right either way because it is awful, you might as well replace it with something more sensible). 

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I always quite liked the alternative timelines for Rokugan anyways – thousand years of darkness, Rokugan 2000, hidden chicken --  so I have no problem with the reboot. To me changes just allow us to explore the themes of Rokugan more fully. And the storyline in the main aeg continuity became a train wreck by the end, IMHO.

 

it's not right or wrong to disagree, so I respect the original posters opinion but I emphatically do not share it

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I know of a lot of people who didn't liked plenty of the old canon since plenty of it was so random (which never bothered me, since it made the world feel more alive), but I am also always open to remakes, reboots, reimaginations. And I expect changes to from them, if I would just get the same story again, then what was the point? No, I enjoy the diferences, like Starbuck in the Battlestar Galactica reimagination series, she was one of the best characters, but overall thereahd been so many changed like what they did with Gaius Balter, which gave him much more depth than Count Balter ever had.

Sure, we might lose some things, like Star wars lost Grand Admiral Thrawn, but well he got re-introduced in the Rebels show, and that without the crappy Wookiee who speaks basic, or the creatures that block the Force. So, I hoe we will see some features of the old game show up again, but without all teh baggage they developed over the years under AEG with multible story teams that retconned themselves often enough.

I personally always loved the story of Hoturi and Kachiko, that was what truly got me hooked on L5R, but just getting the same story all over again would be boring, but with the twist that Hoturi is now Hotaru I suddenly have something I wonder about how this will develop, since this time there is no Dairu... except with some magic maybe? Anyway, that already changes the premise enough to make it interesting again. And I really hope this game will Maybe have not even have a Day of Thunder again, but a different history. Like what if the Spider clans forms earlier? Or Fu Leng gets redeemed? Or the Hantei line never dies out, but we get a shugunate instead? I mean an actually working shogunnate, not the stuff AEG did where the title of shogun was basically pointless. Or plenty of other things that can be done with teh setting. I hope FFG is not afraid to make it their story!

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27 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Hell, me too: there are still so many things in the setting they should have changed, I can't even bother to list them all. But hey, I give FFG the benefit of doubt, maybe they do have some super secret plan to fix all those issues in the future ^_^

Savage. :lol:

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1 hour ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

How boring would the game be if the exact same story were told in the new edition? I don't want to know every twist and turn of the story before it happens. Have you ever tried watching a mystery movie more than twice (once completely blind, a second time to see all the hints and go "woooow, foreshadowing.")? It's often very boring watching a story play out that has no surprises.

They retell same story in AGoT 1.0 and now in AGoT 2.0. Everyody knows the story behind it. Game is worse because of it?

Edited by kempy

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1 hour ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

How boring would the game be if the exact same story were told in the new edition?

Actually, and I may be the only one, I also would have been okay with basically the same characters and same story but with new cards and mechanics. I mean take the Lord of the Rings for example. No matter how many Lord of the Rings CCGs or LCGs get released that story doesn't change, though I realize the story and tournament interactions with L5R are a different animal.

But that being said, I'm looking forward to the reboot and seeing what kind of stories play out, and really hoping Shiba Tsukune shows up.

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2 hours ago, Doji Takashi said:

I love and play L5R RPG since the early 2000's. I always hated the story development parts which were caused by random tournament outcomes. When Yakamo and Hitomi replaced Amaterasu and Onnotangu respectively and the Hantei line ended I was devastated. I was somewhat mollified when Jade Dragon and Obsidian Dragon took over, so I understand the urge to write a coherent story. But why would FFG change Doji Hoturi, one of the most prominent and well established characters in Rokugan's history, to "Doji Hotaru"?!? I know this only by chance - are there more perversions like this I am not aware of?

Perversions? :rolleyes:

2 hours ago, Doji Takashi said:

That might be possible but it does not justify the change a bit in my opinion. Being the reincarnation of the First Crane Clan Thunders, Hoturi would represent the gender of the twin (Yasurugi) who was not able to strike out into the Shadowlands on the First Day of Thunder. It does not feel balanced at all to me.

WTF?

Reicarnation does not care about bodies. Authors may.

And not sure what that has to do with balance.

Resetting the timeline and making some changes to characters helps players to distinguish this from AEG's.

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1 hour ago, Doji Takashi said:

I know, it is the same in my mother tongue and it is listed as the second meaning of this word in said Dictionary. I concern myself about linguistics and I work with definitions. I deliberately use words according to proper semantics in the hope that it might educate people in a subtle way. Thank you for the opportunity to explain it explicitly!

How did anybody actually like this self-congratulatory drivel?

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19 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

Reicarnation does not care about bodies. Authors may.

I can now imagine Mirumoto reincarnating as Hitomi and his first (last) thought being "I'm finally the little girl in the outside as I always have been in the inside!" :lol:

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40 minutes ago, kempy said:

They retell same story in AGoT 1.0 and now in AGoT 2.0. Everyody knows the story behind it. Game is worse because of it?

AGoT was never a game where the story got written based on the results of the game. The interaction is very different.

Edit: also, as to there being "no benefit" to gender-swapping Hoturi -- well, there's the benefit of putting more significant female characters into the story, and the benefit of representing a same-sex relationship (I'm also hoping for a prominent m/m relationship to show up somewhere, given the role of male homosexuality in actual Japanese history). Not everyone is going to think those are good things, but I do.

Edited by Kinzen
added second paragraph

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The answer to the question posed by the topic title is "quite a lot". In general as long as the Clans are consistent with how they were before, the majority of the fanbase will be fine with it. Characters and situations naturally change over time anyway, so as long as the Scorpion act like Scorpion and the Crab act like Crab, the individuals the story follows are a mutable detail.  

In response to your actual opening post, it appears you disliked significant elements the original story anyway, so no loss for you there. And that you continue to defend your use of the word 'perversion' shows that your opinion is of little merit to begin with.

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1 hour ago, Doji Takashi said:

I know, it is the same in my mother tongue and it is listed as the second meaning of this word in said Dictionary. I concern myself about linguistics and I work with definitions. I deliberately use words according to proper semantics in the hope that it might educate people in a subtle way. Thank you for the opportunity to explain it explicitly!

You probably shouldn't worry about educating others if you think either linguistics or semantics are limited to dictionary definitions.

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44 minutes ago, kempy said:

They retell same story in AGoT 1.0 and now in AGoT 2.0. Everyody knows the story behind it. Game is worse because of it?

I hate when people make that argument.   It's completely different.  In AGOT lcg they aren't telling any story.  GRRM told a story and ffg is just making a game of it.  For l5r, the story is the game and is being told by the players of the game (in a way) 

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4 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

In general as long as the Clans are consistent with how they were before, the majority of the fanbase will be fine with it.

I think even this has a lot to play around, because certain Clans have major internal inconsistencies and/or have multiple thematic choices. For example, the Phoenix Clan without their shugenja wouldn't be at a huge loss, because the Clan's secondary warrior-scholar focus could carry them and most fans maybe wouldn't even notice the change at first. 

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I would be ok with the reboot if they had decided to bring back all the characters and not overwrite/delete ones they pick in choose.  If they would have made their own cast of characters, that would be acceptable too... as in keeping the Emperor but changing all the players, that would be an easier pill to swallow. 

Especially in the case of Hoturi, it really does come off as a punch in the gut, as you traded the debonair Hoturi for the naive Hotaru.  I mean, they are almost the same character with the exception that Hotaru comes off weaker in every way just based on the first story. 

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49 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

AGoT was never a game where the story got written based on the results of the game. The interaction is very different.

Edit: also, as to there being "no benefit" to gender-swapping Hoturi -- well, there's the benefit of putting more significant female characters into the story, and the benefit of representing a same-sex relationship (I'm also hoping for a prominent m/m relationship to show up somewhere, given the role of male homosexuality in actual Japanese history). Not everyone is going to think those are good things, but I do.

All in all, I greatly dislike the idea of the 'retcon', which is in fact much more a 'coming back to a clean slate'. Not that I loved all of the backstory as it was - there was a lot of convoluted and sometimes not wholly believable stuff going on, and there had been since at the very least the time of the war of spirits. I do get the idea that is would be hard to get new players into the game with that much background information to learn about.... but I still think ignoring all of it, and in a way that makes it hard to even hint at things from the game's past now and then (without them being cameos from an alternate universe) makes things a bit frustrating for those who were involved in seeing the story move forward. At least for me, it's hugely frustrating. It's especially frustrating for RPG players (like me) who were hoping to see some more detail or development in some areas of the old canon... because it basically means this development is unlikely to happen.

 

That said, things like what Kinzen said above are very welcome. All in all, I don't really feel it's the same game (more or less as Doji Takashi said... in fact it's a weird "same but not the same" feeling). But if it's going to be a different game with a similar theme, and it's going to take a different stance in things such as this, then that's good at least. 

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1 hour ago, JRosen9 said:

I hate when people make that argument.   It's completely different.  In AGOT lcg they aren't telling any story.  GRRM told a story and ffg is just making a game of it.  For l5r, the story is the game and is being told by the players of the game (in a way) 

Kempy knows it perfectly well. He's just trolling because that's what he's like.

12 minutes ago, thimacek said:

All in all, I greatly dislike the idea of the 'retcon', which is in fact much more a 'coming back to a clean slate'. Not that I loved all of the backstory as it was - there was a lot of convoluted and sometimes not wholly believable stuff going on, and there had been since at the very least the time of the war of spirits.

It's funny you put the "beginning" of the convoluted and unbelievable stuff at the War of the Spirits. For me, there were a lot more of that in the Hidden Emperor/Lying Darkness story arc (is there anything that isn't convoluted and/or unbelievable in it?) than in the Four Winds one.

Edited by KerenRhys

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From a purely numeric point of interest I find it fascinating how we have some well known, shall we say, professional trouble stirers on the site but that several of the most recent 'hate' posts have all come from very new posters with very low post counts.

So practically there seem to be several die-cast 'love the old, hate the new' crawling out of the woodwork to spit anger about the game usually counteracted by a lot of more active posters.

This naturally does not mean much but I do wonder if its second accounts or literally someone being so angry that they only post to attack.

Objectively I am obviously a fan-boy and want the game to succeed because L5R was always my favourite card game so like a lot of others I am happy to take up the cudgels and defend the game especially as it looks like it is going to be excellent (even biased as I am, I also loved Conquest and Arkham Horror LCG so I like FF's game design).

I suspect (imho only) that in a lot of cases the poison posts are a bit similar to the posts people used to provide on the ccg after they had dropped the game. There seemed to be a common reaction that if person A was no longer playing then that person would do their damndest to ensure everyone else stopped playing (even though the reality was that it would be a drop in an ocean). It appeared as though the mere fact that other people did not want to drop it and 'punish' the company at the same time made them even more furious.

Just some random thoughts on the trolling. I do think it is trolling as if you hate the new setting, the new fiction, the new cards etc etc of a game you will not be playing then there are better and more healthy things to do with your life than to create an account on a forum and waste time slagging it off.

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I haven't seen much hate in regards to the actual game design.  Nate French and Co.  seems like they did a good job.  Most of the hate is coming from the story perspective and over tournaments.  I personally worried immediately about tournaments when FFG acquired L5R because FFG doesn't have a good tournament structure to begin with.  In fact, the one thing I hope is that L5R does impact and improve the Organized Play system into a better circuit. 

And the story hate should be expected if you delete prominent characters via removal or characteristic change.  What happens in the future between story rewards and ripple effects is all part of being in a new game. But when you make the choice to include most of the main players of old but decide to omit a few of the other popular characters, you will get backlash. 

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